live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #141
Do you think Peter had rest in his soul when he denied the Savior three times?
-
-
-
-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
-
-
-
-
Have you heard the Gospel?
- Thread starter live2blieve
- Start date
- Oct 10, 2022
- 3,518
- 1,721
It is not merely "possible"; it is the natural, sensible, and scripturally-consistent understanding of John's words. That you are able to massage his words into another "possible" interpretation by no means obliges anyone to accept it as accurate.
As I've already pointed out, this isn't what John does in 1 John 1:6-10.
Here's a more accurate parallel between John's words and your analogy:
If we drive sober, we are fine with the law. If we drive under the influence, we can cause accidents and death.
But if we stay sober as the law commands us to do, we will all enjoy safe driving.
If we say we don't drive drunkenly, we lie and have no truth in us.
But when we drive drunkenly, and confess to the law-giving Authority that we have, we are freed from the penalty of our drunken driving.
If anyone says they haven't driven while drunk, we make the law-giving Authority, who says we all do so, a liar. Such people don't have the truth of the law-giving Authority in them.
As you can see, things get very strange when your reading is applied to the entire passage of 1 John 1:6-10.
You ought to follow your own advice, here.
You're using a poor translation of 1 John 3:6 to make it say more than it is and then setting the verse against the record of the rest of the NT that shows, over and over again, that saints do sin. This should alert you to the fact that you've misunderstood 1 John 3:6, but, instead, so committed to your mistaken reading are you, you're contorting the rest of God's word to fit your error. Yikes.
1 John 3:6 (AMP)
No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habitually sins has seen Him or known Him.
1 John 3:6 (NASB)
No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.
1 John 3:6 (ESV)
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1 John 3:6 (ICV)
So the person who lives in Christ does not go on sinning. If he goes on sinning, he has never really understood Christ and has never known him.
1 John 3:6 (ISV)
No one who remains in union with him keeps on sinning. The one who keeps on sinning hasn’t seen him or known him.
1 John 3:6 (CEV)
and people who stay one in their hearts with him won't keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don't know Christ, and they have never seen him.
And so on. See also the collection of verses/passages I cited in my last post concerning sinning saints.
Last edited:
Consecrated Life
Member
- Apr 17, 2020
- 3,219
- 514
Sin will always cause disturbance to the rest of our souls in Christ .
Again you are just demonstrating how spiritually backwards your thinking is.
The distress to our rest in Him is "temporary" the rest to our souls is forever
The distress of Sin to our rest in Him is God's chastising of His children.
Peter found this out as his tears fell during his chastisement .
God does not whip the Devil's children , just His own children.
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Again this is why Jesus instructs His Children to immediately pray & repent of any sin that our chastisement end and our rest in Him be fully felt again ,
Luke 11:2
¶
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.....
And forgive us our sins.........
Bruce.Leiter
Member
- Oct 12, 2024
- 275
- 94
Why does it make any difference exactly when Jesus instituted the new covenant? Isn't it enough that he did? After all, at his Last Supper, Luke says that the cup stood for the new covenant.
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
Consecrated Life
Member
- Apr 17, 2020
- 3,219
- 514
It doesn't to me .
The language is straightforward enough for me .
It is the person I addressed in the post you have quoted who insists the Lord's prayer has no application for those in Christ today.
Bruce.Leiter
Member
- Oct 12, 2024
- 275
- 94
The word "kainos" for "new" in new covenant has a different meaning (something like "new-and-improved") from "neos," often used for a young child or baby ("brand-new"). The new covenant, therefore, has a discontinuity and continuity with the old one.
For example, the outward national laws for Israel have disappeared so that the animal sacrifices' forms have gone, while their inner meaning of God's forgiveness for sin has continued with Jesus' one sacrifice.
Another example is the food laws' outward form of the clean and unclean food has disappeared, but we always need God's cleansing from the many sins that remain in our lives.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus showed us the new covenant by saying that adultery equals lust and murder equals selfish anger as sins before God. Obviously, we are called to avoid all four forms of those sins.
For example, the outward national laws for Israel have disappeared so that the animal sacrifices' forms have gone, while their inner meaning of God's forgiveness for sin has continued with Jesus' one sacrifice.
Another example is the food laws' outward form of the clean and unclean food has disappeared, but we always need God's cleansing from the many sins that remain in our lives.
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus showed us the new covenant by saying that adultery equals lust and murder equals selfish anger as sins before God. Obviously, we are called to avoid all four forms of those sins.
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #147
Does this work if the author of these words NEVER drives when drunk and even NEVER drinks alcohol?
Do you know that the words in italics or "keep on" are additions of the translators? Here are "poor" translations you did not include:
Berean Literal Bible
Anyone abiding in Him does not sin; anyone sinning has not seen Him, nor has he known Him.
King James Bible
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
New King James Version
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
NASB 1995
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
NASB 1977
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
Legacy Standard Bible
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or has come to know Him.
Christian Standard Bible
Everyone who remains in him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen him or known him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Everyone who remains in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him.
American Standard Version
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.
English Revised Version
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.
NET Bible
Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him.
New Heart English Bible
Whoever remains in him does not sin. Whoever sins hasn't seen him, neither knows him.
Webster's Bible Translation
Whoever abideth in him sinneth not: whoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
World English Bible
Whoever remains in him doesn’t sin. Whoever sins hasn’t seen him and doesn’t know him.
- Oct 10, 2022
- 3,518
- 1,721
??? Why would I include them when they don't demonstrate my point, as the other translations do?
I've already addressed why the present progressive tense is used in the versions of 1 John 3:6 I cited (and many others). The record of the NT is full of examples of saints who sin. I've listed several of these examples already in this thread, so I won't do so again. It is in light of these many instances of sinning saints in the NT that I believe 1 John 3:6 warrants the present progressive tense that modern translations give it. You've offered nothing but bald contradiction so far in response to these examples. But mere contradiction is not effective argument; it's what children do in moments of conflict on the playground.
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #149
If the New Covenant started with the birth or ministry of Yahshua, then all He did we should do also, following His example. If the New Covenant started after His death, then we should understand why He did what He did and not ignorantly follow it. So, there is a big difference.
Brecause the New Covenant in His blood, than it has not started before He shed His blood.
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #150
You don't understand that a person cannot rest IN Him if he is not IN Him. During Yahshua's life the disciples were not In Him (and therefore could not have His rest). Only after Pentecost they were In Him and He IN them. This is what He told them in John 14:16-20:
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Consecrated Life
Member
- Apr 17, 2020
- 3,219
- 514
Exactly , that is why He told them to come to Him and they will have rest unto their souls.
Mat 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Bruce.Leiter
Member
- Oct 12, 2024
- 275
- 94
Believers will be free from sin after death or when Jesus comes again. Until then, we do have to overcome sin in our lives through Jesus' victory. We are freed from sin in principle with God as our Judge, but sin continues in us in practice. Evidence is in Paul's writings, where he admits that he is imperfect by struggling against sin (Romans 7:15-25 and Philippians 3:8-14). As a test for you, read Paul's commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18. Are you perfect?
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #153
This is exactly the problem! You are choosing what fits your dogma, even though these translators insert in the text their own interpretation.
Here are the examples you used: "What John wrote comports perfectly with the many other passages of God's word that demonstrate saints sin. See 1 Corinthians 3, 5, 6, 11, or Galatians 3:3, or Revelation 2-3, or Hebrews 10:26-31, and so on."
Here is the explanation I gave earlier in this thread:
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #154
People come to Him by faith, and He gives rest by pouring His Spirit into the believers. This is what happened with His disciples.
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #155
In Romans 7 Paul describes his condition under the Old Covenant, without the Holy Spirit. Please see here:
To live without sin and to be perfect is not the same. We all make mistakes (not perfect), but it does not mean that everyne who makes a mistake sins. I can say, by mistake, that Shakespeare lived in 19th century, but it doesn't mean that I lied (sinned).
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #156
TO ALL PARTICIPANTS:
Please read the first message and respond if you know. If you dont, it will mean that nobody on this forum heard the Gospel preached by the Savior and Paul (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:26,27;44-46).
Please read the first message and respond if you know. If you dont, it will mean that nobody on this forum heard the Gospel preached by the Savior and Paul (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:26,27;44-46).
- Oct 10, 2022
- 3,518
- 1,721
No, I am making a point with point-appropriate examples. Why would I make my points with inappropriate examples?
1 John 3:6, as I've explained, is best translated in the way modern translations render the verse. This isn't dogma, but the simple fact of the matter. It's glaring projection on your part, actually, to accuse me (and the many translators shaping modern versions of the Bible) of selfish dogma. You're the one, as far as I can see, who, solely on the basis of imagined ill-motives, have consigned me and all these skilled translators to the category of dishonest, self-serving dogmatists. This is the very sort of thing dogmatists do.
This is, I'm afraid, a lot of nonsense. Nowhere does Scripture ever liken spiritual birth to the nine-month process that produces a new human being. Conception, gestation and birth are distinctly separate, though inter-related, things and no obstetrician lumps them together as a single thing called "birth." And neither does the Bible. Your imposition, then, of this odd notion of "birth" onto the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 is a classic example of forcing Scripture to say what you want it to say (i.e. eisegesis).
Jesus explained very plainly what he meant by the Parable of the Sower and none of what he said hinted in the slightest at your "3 stages of spiritual birth" idea.
Matthew 13:18-23
18 "Hear then the parable of the sower.
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road.
Where is there any "birth" language in what Christ said here? Instead, Christ described a type of hearer of the truth of the Gospel. This first type is the one who doesn't understand the Gospel when he's heard it. And so, the devil snatches away what he's heard, leaving the hearer lost in his sin. There's no "fertilization" or "gestation" or "birth" even implied in Christ's words above.
20 "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.
There's no birth imagery in this instance, either. Instead, Christ described the emotional hearer of the Gospel, the hearer who only has an emotional response to the truth of the Gospel. The seed of Truth can find no purchase in emotion, no place to root and grow in mere happy feeling, and so cannot sustain the hearer when trouble arises. As a result, the emotional hearer "falls away" from the Truth that had given him such joy initially. And so, he, too, remains lost in his sin, just like the first hearer.
22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
The "seed" of the Truth of the Gospel is heard also by the man who is laboring under the concerns and cares of the world, who desires wealth and all it can gain for him. These "thorns" stifle the truth of the Gospel in this man's life, preventing it from bearing any spiritual fruit in his life. Thus, he, too, is left lost in his sin. I don't see any "3 stages of birth" stuff in Christ's words here...
23 "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
Finally, Jesus described the man upon whom the "seed" of the truth of the Gospel falls who hears the Gospel and receives it with his mind, not mere emotion, and understands it. He is not bound by worldly concerns and so the Gospel is not "choked" out of his mind and heart. As a result, the truth he's heard shapes his living, bearing much "fruit" in him. This is the only hearer of the Gospel who is saved.
I see nowhere in the parable above any mention of conception, gestation or birth. Such an idea has to be entirely read into what Jesus said. There is nothing in the text of the parable itself, then, that obliges me to accept your eisegetical manipulation of it.
Consecrated Life
Member
- Apr 17, 2020
- 3,219
- 514
Exactly!
The indwelling of His Spirit gives the complete Peace rest of God unto the soul.
Something never before available until the day He spoke these Words of Salvation.
Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #159
I didn't acuse you or anybody. "Dogma" is not an offensive word. I am sure that the translators and you have good intentions. If I somehow offended you, I apologize. Notice, that it is you who accuses me in having ill-motives. Do you know my motives?
Let us follow Paul's advice: And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth (2 Timothy 2:24,25).
Apparently, you did not watch the video with other examples and explanation. If you did, you would have found that there is a pattern in the Bible. Matthew 13:23, as you said, describes the "hearer of the Gospel who is saved" and steps of this salvation. He who is saved is born again. Therefore, according to the Bible, invisible or spiritual things of Yahweh such as being born again are reflected in visible or physical things that He made, in this case being physically born:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:20).
live2blieve
Member
- Oct 16, 2024
- 255
- 19
- Thread starter
- #160
Do you mean that when the Savior said these words the disciples had "the indwelling of His Spirit"?