Have you heard the Gospel?

[live2blive]

What depressing cruel Jesus this is you imagine , who would give "temporary" rest unto the soul just to be able to snatch it away .
Mat 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Do you think Peter had rest in his soul when he denied the Savior three times?

 

[Tenchi]

I understand your point. Please understand mine as well. Your interpretation of "we" is possible but it is not the only one.

It is not merely "possible"; it is the natural, sensible, and scripturally-consistent understanding of John's words. That you are able to massage his words into another "possible" interpretation by no means obliges anyone to accept it as accurate.

Again, it is better to give an example. I am writing a letter on behalf of the police officers to young people. "We write to you so that you drive wisely. If we drive sober we are fine with the law. If we drive under the influence, we can cause accidents and death". "We" in the first sentence refer to the police officers. "We' in two last sentences refers to people in general. As a rule, police officers don't drink and drive.

As I've already pointed out, this isn't what John does in 1 John 1:6-10.

Here's a more accurate parallel between John's words and your analogy:

If we drive sober, we are fine with the law. If we drive under the influence, we can cause accidents and death.
But if we stay sober as the law commands us to do, we will all enjoy safe driving.
If we say we don't drive drunkenly, we lie and have no truth in us.
But when we drive drunkenly, and confess to the law-giving Authority that we have, we are freed from the penalty of our drunken driving.
If anyone says they haven't driven while drunk, we make the law-giving Authority, who says we all do so, a liar. Such people don't have the truth of the law-giving Authority in them.

As you can see, things get very strange when your reading is applied to the entire passage of 1 John 1:6-10.

Please consider 1 John 3:6: ...whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. If "we" in 1 John 1 are ALWAYS those who are born again, who "have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled", and also who sin (1John 1:8), than it is in direct contradiction to 1 John 3:6,9.

Please meditate on this with an open mind.

You ought to follow your own advice, here.

You're using a poor translation of 1 John 3:6 to make it say more than it is and then setting the verse against the record of the rest of the NT that shows, over and over again, that saints do sin. This should alert you to the fact that you've misunderstood 1 John 3:6, but, instead, so committed to your mistaken reading are you, you're contorting the rest of God's word to fit your error. Yikes.

1 John 3:6 (AMP)
No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habitually sins has seen Him or known Him.

1 John 3:6 (NASB)
No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.

1 John 3:6 (ESV)
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:6 (ICV)
So the person who lives in Christ does not go on sinning. If he goes on sinning, he has never really understood Christ and has never known him.

1 John 3:6 (ISV)
No one who remains in union with him keeps on sinning. The one who keeps on sinning hasn’t seen him or known him.

1 John 3:6 (CEV)
and people who stay one in their hearts with him won't keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don't know Christ, and they have never seen him.

And so on. See also the collection of verses/passages I cited in my last post concerning sinning saints.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Do you think Peter had rest in his soul when he denied the Savior three times?

Sin will always cause disturbance to the rest of our souls in Christ .
Again you are just demonstrating how spiritually backwards your thinking is.
The distress to our rest in Him is "temporary" the rest to our souls is forever
The distress of Sin to our rest in Him is God's chastising of His children.
Peter found this out as his tears fell during his chastisement .
God does not whip the Devil's children , just His own children.
Hebrews 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Again this is why Jesus instructs His Children to immediately pray & repent of any sin that our chastisement end and our rest in Him be fully felt again ,

Luke 11:2
¶
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.....
And forgive us our sins.........

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I never said He forgave anyone of sin at the time of His baptism.
Only when he began to tell people that all they now needed to do to be forgiven of their sins was to repent of their sins can we see the start of God's better way .

Mat 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.......
.......... forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

Why does it make any difference exactly when Jesus instituted the new covenant? Isn't it enough that he did? After all, at his Last Supper, Luke says that the cup stood for the new covenant.
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Why does it make any difference exactly when Jesus instituted the new covenant?

It doesn't to me .
The language is straightforward enough for me .
It is the person I addressed in the post you have quoted who insists the Lord's prayer has no application for those in Christ today.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

The word "kainos" for "new" in new covenant has a different meaning (something like "new-and-improved") from "neos," often used for a young child or baby ("brand-new"). The new covenant, therefore, has a discontinuity and continuity with the old one.

For example, the outward national laws for Israel have disappeared so that the animal sacrifices' forms have gone, while their inner meaning of God's forgiveness for sin has continued with Jesus' one sacrifice.

Another example is the food laws' outward form of the clean and unclean food has disappeared, but we always need God's cleansing from the many sins that remain in our lives.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus showed us the new covenant by saying that adultery equals lust and murder equals selfish anger as sins before God. Obviously, we are called to avoid all four forms of those sins.

 

[live2blive]

Here's a more accurate parallel between John's words and your analogy:

If we drive sober, we are fine with the law. If we drive under the influence, we can cause accidents and death.
But if we stay sober as the law commands us to do, we will all enjoy safe driving.
If we say we don't drive drunkenly, we lie and have no truth in us.
But when we drive drunkenly, and confess to the law-giving Authority that we have, we are freed from the penalty of our drunken driving.
If anyone says they haven't driven while drunk, we make the law-giving Authority, who says we all do so, a liar. Such people don't have the truth of the law-giving Authority in them.

As you can see, things get very strange when your reading is applied to the entire passage of 1 John 1:6-10.

Does this work if the author of these words NEVER drives when drunk and even NEVER drinks alcohol?

You ought to follow your own advice, here.

You're using a poor translation of 1 John 3:6 to make it say more than it is and then setting the verse against the record of the rest of the NT that shows, over and over again, that saints do sin. This should alert you to the fact that you've misunderstood 1 John 3:6, but, instead, so committed to your mistaken reading are you, you're contorting the rest of God's word to fit your error. Yikes.

1 John 3:6 (AMP)

No one who abides in Him [who remains united in fellowship with Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin. No one who habitually sins has seen Him or known Him.

1 John 3:6 (NASB)

No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.

1 John 3:6 (ESV)

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.

1 John 3:6 (ICV)

So the person who lives in Christ does not go on sinning. If he goes on sinning, he has never really understood Christ and has never known him.

1 John 3:6 (ISV)

No one who remains in union with him keeps on sinning. The one who keeps on sinning hasn’t seen him or known him.

1 John 3:6 (CEV)

and people who stay one in their hearts with him won't keep on sinning. If they do keep on sinning, they don't know Christ, and they have never seen him.

And so on. See also the collection of verses/passages I cited in my last post concerning sinning saints.

Do you know that the words in italics or "keep on" are additions of the translators? Here are "poor" translations you did not include:

Berean Literal Bible
Anyone abiding in Him does not sin; anyone sinning has not seen Him, nor has he known Him.

King James Bible
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

New King James Version
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

NASB 1995
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

NASB 1977
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

Legacy Standard Bible
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or has come to know Him.

Christian Standard Bible
Everyone who remains in him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen him or known him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Everyone who remains in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him.

American Standard Version
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.

English Revised Version
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.

NET Bible
Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him.

New Heart English Bible
Whoever remains in him does not sin. Whoever sins hasn't seen him, neither knows him.

Webster's Bible Translation
Whoever abideth in him sinneth not: whoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

World English Bible
Whoever remains in him doesn’t sin. Whoever sins hasn’t seen him and doesn’t know him.

 

[Tenchi]

Do you know that the words in italics or "keep on" are additions of the translators? Here are "poor" translations you did not include:

Berean Literal Bible
Anyone abiding in Him does not sin; anyone sinning has not seen Him, nor has he known Him.

King James Bible
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

New King James Version
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

NASB 1995
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

NASB 1977
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

Legacy Standard Bible
No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or has come to know Him.

Christian Standard Bible
Everyone who remains in him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen him or known him.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Everyone who remains in Him does not sin; everyone who sins has not seen Him or known Him.

American Standard Version
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.

English Revised Version
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither knoweth him.

NET Bible
Everyone who resides in him does not sin; everyone who sins has neither seen him nor known him.

New Heart English Bible
Whoever remains in him does not sin. Whoever sins hasn't seen him, neither knows him.

Webster's Bible Translation
Whoever abideth in him sinneth not: whoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

World English Bible
Whoever remains in him doesn’t sin. Whoever sins hasn’t seen him and doesn’t know him.

??? Why would I include them when they don't demonstrate my point, as the other translations do?

I've already addressed why the present progressive tense is used in the versions of 1 John 3:6 I cited (and many others). The record of the NT is full of examples of saints who sin. I've listed several of these examples already in this thread, so I won't do so again. It is in light of these many instances of sinning saints in the NT that I believe 1 John 3:6 warrants the present progressive tense that modern translations give it. You've offered nothing but bald contradiction so far in response to these examples. But mere contradiction is not effective argument; it's what children do in moments of conflict on the playground.

 

[live2blive]

Why does it make any difference exactly when Jesus instituted the new covenant? Isn't it enough that he did? After all, at his Last Supper, Luke says that the cup stood for the new covenant.
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

If the New Covenant started with the birth or ministry of Yahshua, then all He did we should do also, following His example. If the New Covenant started after His death, then we should understand why He did what He did and not ignorantly follow it. So, there is a big difference.

Brecause the New Covenant in His blood, than it has not started before He shed His blood.

 

[live2blive]

Again this is why Jesus instructs His Children to immediately pray & repent of any sin that our chastisement end and our rest in Him be fully felt again

You don't understand that a person cannot rest IN Him if he is not IN Him. During Yahshua's life the disciples were not In Him (and therefore could not have His rest). Only after Pentecost they were In Him and He IN them. This is what He told them in John 14:16-20:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You don't understand that a person cannot rest IN Him if he is not IN Him.

Exactly , that is why He told them to come to Him and they will have rest unto their souls.

Mat 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Believers will be free from sin after death or when Jesus comes again. Until then, we do have to overcome sin in our lives through Jesus' victory. We are freed from sin in principle with God as our Judge, but sin continues in us in practice. Evidence is in Paul's writings, where he admits that he is imperfect by struggling against sin (Romans 7:15-25 and Philippians 3:8-14). As a test for you, read Paul's commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18. Are you perfect?