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Heaven and Hell

  • Thread starter Thread starter felix
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felix

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Mark 9:43-44 said:
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched -- where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Something doesn't seem right here.

Issue #1: A man enters life the same way he died. If a man has his hand cut off, he enters life the same way. What if he is beheaded for Christ? This contradicts with other scripture facts where we will be clothed with incorruptible body and transformed like him not the same way we died.

Issue #2: Hell is described as an everlasting fire not quenched. Depends on the validity of the previous point.
 
This is a tough saying you have presented. One must leave a part of him that drags him down to hell. But the translation you provided is problematic. I believe the words "offends you" should be applied rather than "causes to sin". It is hard to imagine that I can blame my hand as causing me to sin. But if we use "offends", then I would say finding fault with ourselves and others is what this scripture is addressing. Hell being a fire never quenched makse sense since in impurity of heart, nothing is pure.
 
Something doesn't seem right here.

Issue #1: A man enters life the same way he died. If a man has his hand cut off, he enters life the same way. What if he is beheaded for Christ? This contradicts with other scripture facts where we will be clothed with incorruptible body and transformed like him not the same way we died.

Issue #2: Hell is described as an everlasting fire not quenched. Depends on the validity of the previous point.

what it means, it is better for you to be maimed (in this life) and (perhaps even to be maimed in the next) eternal life, than to have two hands to go to Gehenna (lake of fire).

it doesnt say anything about what we are like on the New Heaven and Earth. It most certainly is an issue of translation into English from the greek.

Gehenna is an unquenchable fire, everlasting speaks more of its effect than its duration, again an issue of translation as well as cultural expectation. I am a conditionalist, I do not believe that God tortures people for eternity. I would suggest a look at both Rotherham's emphasized bible, and Young's Literal Translation, both insanely literal, almost to the point of unreadability. But both refer to Gehenna as an age-abiding/enduring fire. Aionios (the word everlasting) is a word in dispute, we are not totally sure of its meaning.
 
Something doesn't seem right here.

Issue #1: A man enters life the same way he died. If a man has his hand cut off, he enters life the same way. What if he is beheaded for Christ? This contradicts with other scripture facts where we will be clothed with incorruptible body and transformed like him not the same way we died.

"(E)nter into life maimed" does not mean when you die. You 'enter into life' when you believe and live for the kingdom.

Eternal life is not just everlasting life in the age to come. It is a quality of life. A quality of life that starts when you believe and begin to live for the kingdom in this age. Jesus is illustrating how it is better to leave some things behind, here and now, and enter into this quality of life (that never ends) without the things that cause us to sin--no matter how dear and needed we perceive them to be. It's not worth it in the long run.

"...let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles." (Heb. 12:1 NIV)
 
I agree that Jesus is referring to life that is here and now as opposed to the new Heaven/Earth existence.

The key phrase is "enter".... I tend to believe that we are not "saved" until we stand before Christ justified. But, we enter into salvation here and now... today is the day of salvation, right? Salvation is a process with a beginning and a finish. We begin that process here...it is finished when we stand justified before Christ and receive that incorruptible body.

It is better to enter into salvation now, even if maimed or sacrificing what we believe we need, than to fail to be saved and experience the unquenchable fire.
 
These are all very good posts, but I still think what we are leaving behind is not adequately addressed. Certainly we should cast away anything that would cause us to sin. But I am not so sure that this is what Jesus is refering to. For this word skandalizo is better interpreted as to offend or make to offend. Wherein Jesus says blessed is he who is not offended by me. This sounds more like finding something wrong with others or causing others to be offended.
 
Something doesn't seem right here.

Issue #1: A man enters life the same way he died. If a man has his hand cut off, he enters life the same way. What if he is beheaded for Christ? This contradicts with other scripture facts where we will be clothed with incorruptible body and transformed like him not the same way we died.

Issue #2: Hell is described as an everlasting fire not quenched. Depends on the validity of the previous point.

The original word here is Gehinnom and in Jewish thought carries a different meaning than the Greek word Hades which is also translated as the word Hell.

In Jewish thought, what you do is as important as what you think. In other words, if you don't have the self control to stop doing what your doing, then cut it off so you can't do it anymore. If anything, Jesus is warning us of our behavior and is stressing that what we do is indeed very much a part of our salvation.

As Christians, I fear that somehow we've strayed from the core of Christianity and it's almost taboo to tell somebody that they are not living in accordance with God's word. We are so fearful of being doctrinaly correct that salvation comes by faith, and faith alone we have lost the importance of what Jesus was teaching almost to the point where how we act and what we do is secondary to what we believe.

The problem with this thought is exactly what James counters by, "I will show you my faith by what I do" which is never a popular passage to quote... But we should at least try to live as God wants us to live. It's the "least" we can do.
 
The original word here is Gehinnom and in Jewish thought carries a different meaning than the Greek word Hades which is also translated as the word Hell.

In Jewish thought, what you do is as important as what you think. In other words, if you don't have the self control to stop doing what your doing, then cut it off so you can't do it anymore. If anything, Jesus is warning us of our behavior and is stressing that what we do is indeed very much a part of our salvation.

As Christians, I fear that somehow we've strayed from the core of Christianity and it's almost taboo to tell somebody that they are not living in accordance with God's word. We are so fearful of being doctrinaly correct that salvation comes by faith, and faith alone we have lost the importance of what Jesus was teaching almost to the point where how we act and what we do is secondary to what we believe.

The problem with this thought is exactly what James counters by, "I will show you my faith by what I do" which is never a popular passage to quote... But we should at least try to live as God wants us to live. It's the "least" we can do.

Exactly. This idea of eternal/everlasting life referring to now is ridiculous. its referring to avoiding sin at every opportunity, being free from sin. It is not just "ooh faith saved me, yay, carry on.." its a fundamental change within is us that results in us fighting temptation to sin as much as we can, repentance whenever we mess up. Yes, Jesus saved us, and his results in eternal life, but evidence of that salvation is a fundamental change of character that lasts a lifetime. I dont doubt that it is slow and gradual (as evidenced by myself, I am in no way perfect). Entering into life means "entering into salvation, eternal life". The contrast here is it is better to live in eternity maimed on the new earth, than to face judgment from God, and the subsequent fiery execution in the lake of fire. Anyone held captive by the Mujahadeen, would surely prefer their hands be chopped off than their head.
 
Preaching hell fire damnation along with the salvation of Christ is nowdays often considered hate speech.
 
Preaching hell fire damnation along with the salvation of Christ is nowdays often considered hate speech.

I agree, and when I ponder that thought.. well, I just had a talk by the coffee pot with a Brother on an unrelated topic and he asked the question: Is faith an accessory, or is it an artery?

I would surmise to say that if faith is an accessory, you probably have all the right answers... for all the wrong reasons.

If faith is an artery, it will give you the strength to change your behavior.

Now then, how did that passage go? I can do all things through Christ who.... makes me look good? Accessories are so over rated. lol!
 
I agree, and when I ponder that thought.. well, I just had a talk by the coffee pot with a Brother on an unrelated topic and he asked the question: Is faith an accessory, or is it an artery?

I would surmise to say that if faith is an accessory, you probably have all the right answers... for all the wrong reasons.

If faith is an artery, it will give you the strength to change your behavior.

Now then, how did that passage go? I can do all things through Christ who.... makes me look good? Accessories are so over rated. lol!

Exactly, it is a fundamental change, not through fear of "hell", but a truly repentant heart, fuelled by love, grace and a touch of the Holy Spirit.
 
I agree that Jesus is referring to life that is here and now as opposed to the new Heaven/Earth existence.

The key phrase is "enter".... I tend to believe that we are not "saved" until we stand before Christ justified. But, we enter into salvation here and now... today is the day of salvation, right? Salvation is a process with a beginning and a finish. We begin that process here...it is finished when we stand justified before Christ and receive that incorruptible body.

It is better to enter into salvation now, even if maimed or sacrificing what we believe we need, than to fail to be saved and experience the unquenchable fire.

This seems to be more satisfactory answer.
 
what it means, it is better for you to be maimed (in this life) and (perhaps even to be maimed in the next) eternal life, than to have two hands to go to Gehenna (lake of fire).

it doesnt say anything about what we are like on the New Heaven and Earth. It most certainly is an issue of translation into English from the greek.

I agree with other points but Scripture does say about how we will be in New Heavens and earth with transformed body like angels.

(Matt 22:30) "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

(Phil 3:20-21) For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
 
This sounds more like finding something wrong with others or causing others to be offended.
...and cutting them off from fellowship with the body of Christ for the sake of the body.

Certainly a biblical truth, and one of the interpretations for the passage. But I'm personally not convinced that's the truth Jesus was trying to stress here.
 
what it means, it is better for you to be maimed (in this life) and (perhaps even to be maimed in the next) eternal life, than to have two hands to go to Gehenna (lake of fire).

it doesnt say anything about what we are like on the New Heaven and Earth.
IOW, you're saying it's not a text to teach us something about the life to come and whether maimed people will be there or not, but rather a way to illustrate another spiritual truth.

Another example of this way of teaching is the teaching about the jailer:

"...your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." (Matthew 5:25-26 NIV)

We know no one can escape the sentence of the damned by paying their way out. But Jesus uses it as if it is a possibility to do that as a way to drive home the real truth of what he's teaching.
 
...and cutting them off from fellowship with the body of Christ for the sake of the body.

Certainly a biblical truth, and one of the interpretations for the passage. But I'm personally not convinced that's the truth Jesus was trying to stress here.

I wasn't meaning to cut off as in excommunication. I think it means quite finding things to be offended at, and try not to offend.
 
I agree with other points but Scripture does say about how we will be in New Heavens and earth with transformed body like angels.

(Matt 22:30) "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

(Phil 3:20-21) For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

What I am (inadequately) trying to get across, is Jesus is saying it would be better to be maimed on the new earth, than to face the lake of fire. Thats it. Not that it WILL happen, if we cut off our hands, on the new earth we will have two new hands. its simply exclaiming how awful it would be to have had a chance at eternal life and lose it, and to realise that this TRULY is the end. that would be wee-inducingly scary.
 
Something doesn't seem right here.

Issue #1: A man enters life the same way he died. If a man has his hand cut off, he enters life the same way. What if he is beheaded for Christ? This contradicts with other scripture facts where we will be clothed with incorruptible body and transformed like him not the same way we died.

Issue #2: Hell is described as an everlasting fire not quenched. Depends on the validity of the previous point.

The consequence of sin is so terrible that it would be better to cut off your own hand to keep yourself from stealing than to be thrown into hell for stealing. The consequence of sin is that terrible.
 
The consequence of sin is so terrible that it would be better to cut off your own hand to keep yourself from stealing than to be thrown into hell for stealing. The consequence of sin is that terrible.

Although my conception of hell is likely different than yours, I agree that this is the likely meaning of the verse.
 
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