Bible Study HELL DOES NOT EXIST

[Doug Brents]

The problem is that people die. The only way someone could suffer eternally is if they lived eternally. The only way one can live eternally is for God to give them life eternally. So, that doctrine requires that God keeps people alive for the purpose of torment.

You are confusing two aspects of "life".
There is physical life (this human body), and there is spiritual life (our soul, the breath of life).
There are also two kinds of death in the Bible. Physical death is death of the physical body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God (this is the second death (Rev 20:14)).
The physical body will die and return to the Earth from which it was taken. But the human spirit is immortal (having a beginning but no end). It will continue to exist for the rest of eternity. (Ecc 12:7) (The Spirit of God is eternal: having no beginning and no end).
The soul will continue to exist in Heaven with God if it is "in Christ" at the time of physical death (eternal life).
The soul will be cast out from God's presence (the lake of fire) if it is not "in Christ" at the time of physical death (eternal death). (this is Hell).
The Lake of Fire represents never-ending, continuous separation from God, which will cause never-ending pain for Satan and those (the vast majority of humanity) who reject God.

 

[Doug Brents]

Also, hell IS escapable...
through belief in Jesus and in following His commandments.

Hell is escapable only during this physical life. After this physical body dies, there is no do-over. There is no escape from the destiny that is fixed by the actions taken in this life.

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," Heb 9:27

 

[GodsGrace]

Hell is escapable only during this physical life. After this physical body dies, there is no do-over. There is no escape from the destiny that is fixed by the actions taken in this life.

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment," Heb 9:27

Agreed, of course.

Just as an aside...
I do wish we'd stop using the word breath, as in breath of life that God gave to Adam.
I do wish we'd stick to the different parts that make up the human being:
Body, Soul, Spirit.

I just find that using the word breath is confusing --- different persons use it in different ways.
Some mean life...some mean spirit...some mean soul...

 

[Butch5]

You are confusing two aspects of "life".
There is physical life (this human body), and there is spiritual life (our soul, the breath of life).
There are also two kinds of death in the Bible. Physical death is death of the physical body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God (this is the second death (Rev 20:14)).
The physical body will die and return to the Earth from which it was taken. But the human spirit is immortal (having a beginning but no end). It will continue to exist for the rest of eternity. (Ecc 12:7) (The Spirit of God is eternal: having no beginning and no end).
The soul will continue to exist in Heaven with God if it is "in Christ" at the time of physical death (eternal life).
The soul will be cast out from God's presence (the lake of fire) if it is not "in Christ" at the time of physical death (eternal death). (this is Hell).
The Lake of Fire represents never-ending, continuous separation from God, which will cause never-ending pain for Satan and those (the vast majority of humanity) who reject God.

There is no such thing as spiritual death. You won't find that in the Bible. There is death, that's it. Only one kind, the cessation of life. When a person dies they are dead. There is nothing of man that lives on after death. The man consists of the dust of the earth. That dust is animated by God through the breath or spirit of life. When that breath or spirit of life returns to God the person is dead. That's what the Bible teaches. Paul tells us in his letter to Timothy that the Father alone is immortal. That means no one is.

 

[Butch5]

God breathed life into man...and man became alive.

But what do you mean by the spirit in man?
What other parts does a man have?

I agree that man has 3 parts...
Body
Soul
Spirit

The body dies and will be resurrected at the end of the world.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The soul and spirit go to be with God.
Jesus told the thief he would be with Him that very day.
Certainly Jesus did not mean the thief's body, but his soul and spirit.
Luke 23:43
43And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

I would submit that man is flesh being. Gen 2:7 tells us how man was created. It says that God created man from the dust of the earth. So, we know what a man is. He is the dust or elements of the earth. We're then told that God breathed some out if Himself into the man. That was the breath or spirit (same word) of life He breathed into the man. At that point a transformation took place. The man became a living soul. We see from this that a soul consists of the man and the breath of life from God. When a man dies the breath of life and the body, the man, separate, thus the soul ceases to exist as its component parts have separated. The body, the man, returns to dust and the breath returns to God. There is nothing to live on.

 

[Butch5]

Except for this:
If we have a soul that goes on forever,,,,then it will go on forever.
We either have a soul and spirit that lives on...
or we don't
and those that believe there is no life after death might be right.

We either have it or we don't, and I submit that we don't. The idea of an immortal soul came into Christianity through Greek philosophy. It's not a Biblical teaching

 

[GodsGrace]

We either have it or we don't, and I submit that we don't. The idea of an immortal soul came into Christianity through Greek philosophy. It's not a Biblical teaching

As I've said,,,using the term BREATH OF LIFE causes some confusion as to what constitutes a human.

The soul was thought to be immortal by philosophers of the day...this does not mean that the immortality of the soul is not biblical.

I'm going to list some verses...I'm sorry I can't post them, it's really late here. You probably know them...

Matthew 10:28 do not fear those that can kill the body - but that which can destroy the soul in hell....(is hell eternal?)
Romans 6:23 we have eternal life in Christ (something about us is eternal)
1 Cor 15:53
Hebrews 9:27 we die once and then comes the judgement. What is being judged??

I'll stop here.

 

[Butch5]

As I've said,,,using the term BREATH OF LIFE causes some confusion as to what constitutes a human.

The soul was thought to be immortal by philosophers of the day...this does not mean that the immortality of the soul is not biblical.

I'm going to list some verses...I'm sorry I can't post them, it's really late here. You probably know them...

Matthew 10:28 do not fear those that can kill the body - but that which can destroy the soul in hell....(is hell eternal?)
Romans 6:23 we have eternal life in Christ (something about us is eternal)
1 Cor 15:53
Hebrews 9:27 we die once and then comes the judgement. What is being judged??

I'll stop here.

How does using the Biblical term cause confusion? Man is dust. The breath or spirit in man is God. Those combined form a soul.

The soul is not immortal. Tell me, why would God promise immortality to believers if they were already immortal? What point would that serve?

God said Genesis,

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Man is flesh not a spirit.

We're not eternal. The eternal life that is given by Christ comes in the next age, not this one. It's at the Resurrection.

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Notice the receive in this time and that which is receive din the age to come. The word world is the word age. Eternal life is given in the age to come. That's at the Resurrection.

Paul wrote,

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb. 9:27 KJV)

It's the person being judged in the flesh. The person dies, they remain dead until the time of judgement.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (Jn. 5:28-30 KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-21:1 KJV)

 

[Randy]

The Hades Jesus spoke of in His parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a place of suffering but the lake of fire reads worse. We believe in the resurrection of the unrighteous or wicked to judgment as in to be condemned. Therefore we keep a clear conscience before God. Healthy fear of the Lord is Good wisdom. The rich man had refused the poor man even a drink of water. Now that man in Hades begs for the same consideration but is refused. Jesus shows the depth of depravity in the heart of that rich man who had so much but couldn't even spare a drink of water to aid someone's suffering.

I read awareness and suffering in the lake of fire. No change of mind in their judgment was implied or expressed only eternal suffering.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

The Hades Jesus spoke of in His parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a place of suffering but the lake of fire reads worse. We believe in the resurrection of the unrighteous or wicked to judgment as in to be condemned. Therefore we keep a clear conscience before God. Healthy fear of the Lord is Good wisdom. The rich man had refused the poor man even a drink of water. Now that man in Hades begs for the same consideration but is refused. Jesus shows the depth of depravity in the heart of that rich man who had so much but couldn't even spare a drink of water to aid someone's suffering.

I read awareness and suffering in the lake of fire. No change of mind in their judgment was implied or expressed only eternal suffering.

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

So many people quote this passage to claim eternal torment, yet the people in this passage are alive. Here are a few things to consider about this passage.

There are several things to consider here. Firstly, you're quoting from a book that is full of symbolism. Secondly, those people are alive. Thirdly, the saints are also there. Do the saints also go to eternal torment? Fourthly, the passage is speaking of those who take the mark of the beast. It doesn't say anything about others. Fifthly, forever and ever is wrongly translated. It should be translated ages of ages.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Except for this:
If we have a soul that goes on forever,,,,then it will go on forever.
We either have a soul and spirit that lives on...
or we don't
and those that believe there is no life after death might be right.

At least that is their FERVENT HOPE!! Not a chance I was willing to take, y'all.

 

[Randy]

So many people quote this passage to claim eternal torment, yet the people in this passage are alive. Here are a few things to consider about this passage.

There are several things to consider here. Firstly, you're quoting from a book that is full of symbolism. Secondly, those people are alive. Thirdly, the saints are also there. Do the saints also go to eternal torment? Fourthly, the passage is speaking of those who take the mark of the beast. It doesn't say anything about others. Fifthly, forever and ever is wrongly translated. It should be translated ages of ages.

Where did you read saints go there? The 1st resurrection has those who remained faithful to Jesus. The 2nd death has no power over them. They will reign with Christ for a thousand years. The saints are there in the great tribulation because the saints must endure those days.

Its clear to me. It does speak of those who take the mark of the beast. The key is the lake of fire does not destroy their souls. Other passages state others end up there to. The punishment is the same.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

 

[Butch5]

Where did you read saints go there? The 1st resurrection has those who remained faithful to Jesus. The 2nd death has no power over them. They will reign with Christ for a thousand years. The saints are there in the great tribulation because the saints must endure those days.

Its clear to me. It does speak of those who take the mark of the beast. The key is the lake of fire does not destroy their souls. Other passages state others end up there to. The punishment is the same.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Hi Randy,

It's in the passage. The version you quoted isn't as clear.

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(Rev. 14:11-12 KJV)

The Greek word translated, here, literally means at this location. The word translated patience means endurance. This is during the Tribulation and the Saints are there during this time. If this is talking about a place of eternal conscious torment then the saints are also there. But it's not. This is about those who are worshipping the beast. Another point is that the word translated worship is present tense. While they are worshipping the Beast they are suffering torment day and night. This passage doesn't say anything about them being dead or about their souls.

Look at the passage you quoted. It calls the Lake of Fire the second death. It's not the second life. For something to be the second one, it has to be like the first one. The first death is a physical death of the body, the second death is the same. At the judgement all will have been resurrected. So, all of the dead will again be in the body. At that time they will be judged. Those not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second death. They will be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire and die again. Thus, it is the second death.

 

[Doug Brents]

There is no such thing as spiritual death. You won't find that in the Bible. There is death, that's it. Only one kind, the cessation of life. When a person dies they are dead. There is nothing of man that lives on after death. The man consists of the dust of the earth. That dust is animated by God through the breath or spirit of life. When that breath or spirit of life returns to God the person is dead. That's what the Bible teaches. Paul tells us in his letter to Timothy that the Father alone is immortal. That means no one is.

No.

God is ETERNAL - having no beginning and no end.
Man's soul is immortal - having a beginning but no end.
Man's physical body is mortal - having both beginning and end.

Read Rev 6:9-10 - the souls of the martyrs continue to exist and be aware long after they are killed.
Read 2 Cor 12:1-4 - If we study the chronology of Paul’s journeys and labors we find that a little more than fourteen years before he wrote his Epistle to the Corinthians he was laboring at Lystra (Acts 14:19). There the Jews stoned him and dragged him outside the city supposing he had been dead. It is probable that while he lay unconscious from stoning was when he was taken up to Heaven (Paradise) and was still aware, and conscious of what was happening.

There are many more examples as well in Scripture of the soul having awareness after death, and of its immortal nature.

But there most certainly is such thing as spiritual death. Not that the spirit ceases to exist, but that it is separated from God for the rest of eternity to suffer the pain of having seen God (at Judgement) and all of His Glory, but never, ever, seeing Him again. That is the second death as mentioned in Rev 20:13-15, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (spiritual death). 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

 

[Doug Brents]

Look at the passage you quoted. It calls the Lake of Fire the second death. It's not the second life. For something to be the second one, it has to be like the first one. The first death is a physical death of the body, the second death is the same. At the judgement all will have been resurrected. So, all of the dead will again be in the body. At that time they will be judged. Those not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second death. They will be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire and die again. Thus, it is the second death.

No sir. We will not be resurrected to a physical body. 1 Cor 15:40-54 tells us that when we are resurrected before Judgement we will not be resurrected to a physical body, but to a spiritual body that is similar to the Spirit of God. We will be changed, completely different from what we are now. And we will be immortal at that point. Which means (contrary to what the movie "The Highlander" would have you believe) that we cannot ever die again (even if our head were removed).

The second death will involve those who have been resurrected to this immortal body. All those who are resurrected to the immortal body but whose name is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be eternally tormented because they are apart from God.

 

[Butch5]

No.

God is ETERNAL - having no beginning and no end.
Man's soul is immortal - having a beginning but no end.
Man's physical body is mortal - having both beginning and end.

Read Rev 6:9-10 - the souls of the martyrs continue to exist and be aware long after they are killed.
Read 2 Cor 12:1-4 - If we study the chronology of Paul’s journeys and labors we find that a little more than fourteen years before he wrote his Epistle to the Corinthians he was laboring at Lystra (Acts 14:19). There the Jews stoned him and dragged him outside the city supposing he had been dead. It is probable that while he lay unconscious from stoning was when he was taken up to Heaven (Paradise) and was still aware, and conscious of what was happening.

There are many more examples as well in Scripture of the soul having awareness after death, and of its immortal nature.

But there most certainly is such thing as spiritual death. Not that the spirit ceases to exist, but that it is separated from God for the rest of eternity to suffer the pain of having seen God (at Judgement) and all of His Glory, but never, ever, seeing Him again. That is the second death as mentioned in Rev 20:13-15, "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death (spiritual death). 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

No, man is not immortal. You're simply misunderstanding those passages. Firstly, Revelation is a book full of symbolism, So, you'd really need to show how that could possibly be living people. Secondly, Paul was not dead. When he saw paradise he was alive, so that has no bearing on the subject. However, the Scriptures tell us plainly that no one but the Father has immortality.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

We see that when Jesus comes He will reveal the only one who has immortality. The one no man has seen nor can see. So, the only one who has immortality has never been seen and can't be seen. That leaves out every single person ever born. Man is not immortal. This passage alone destroys the whole immortal soul doctrine. It's not true.

There is no such thing spiritual death. The meaning of death is the cessation of life. Being separated from God is not the definition of death. You're redefining definitions to make the Scriptures fit what you believe. That's not how it's done. In order for something to be the second one, it has to be like the first one. The first death is physical death of the body, the second death is the same. We see that all will be resurrected, judged, in the body, and those not found in the Book of Life, will be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire, thus, it is the second death. It's just like the first one.

 

[Butch5]

No sir. We will not be resurrected to a physical body. 1 Cor 15:40-54 tells us that when we are resurrected before Judgement we will not be resurrected to a physical body, but to a spiritual body that is similar to the Spirit of God. We will be changed, completely different from what we are now. And we will be immortal at that point. Which means (contrary to what the movie "The Highlander" would have you believe) that we cannot ever die again (even if our head were removed).

The second death will involve those who have been resurrected to this immortal body. All those who are resurrected to the immortal body but whose name is not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire to be eternally tormented because they are apart from God.

Spiritual doesn't mean non physical. It's an adjective. It simply means having qualities of the spirit or breath. Jesus was raised with a flesh and bone body. He is the example of the resurrection. Ezekiel 37 explains the resurrection of Israel, it's flesh and bone.

What you have to realize is that Paul talks in concepts. Here Paul writes of the spiritual man.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (1 Cor. 2:15 KJV)

This isn't some sort of non physical man. It's a normal man who is guided by the spirit. He's said to be spiritual.

The definition of the Greek word translated resurrection means to stand again. The Scriptures speak of the resurrection of the body. That means the body will stand again. If it was some other body then it's not resurrection, it's reincarnation. The Bible doesn't teach reincarnation, it teaches resurrection.

Again, to be the second death, it must be like the first one. Also, the Lake of Fire is not eternal.

 

[Doug Brents]

No, man is not immortal. You're simply misunderstanding those passages. Firstly, Revelation is a book full of symbolism, So, you'd really need to show how that could possibly be living people. Secondly, Paul was not dead. When he saw paradise he was alive, so that has no bearing on the subject. However, the Scriptures tell us plainly that no one but the Father has immortality.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. (1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

We see that when Jesus comes He will reveal the only one who has immortality. The one no man has seen nor can see. So, the only one who has immortality has never been seen and can't be seen. That leaves out every single person ever born. Man is not immortal. This passage alone destroys the whole immortal soul doctrine. It's not true.

There is no such thing spiritual death. The meaning of death is the cessation of life. Being separated from God is not the definition of death. You're redefining definitions to make the Scriptures fit what you believe. That's not how it's done. In order for something to be the second one, it has to be like the first one. The first death is physical death of the body, the second death is the same. We see that all will be resurrected, judged, in the body, and those not found in the Book of Life, will be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire, thus, it is the second death. It's just like the first one.

Believe what you want. As someone said earlier, this is not an issue we have to agree upon to be saved. And as Paul said, we will know the truth when we get to Heaven.

 

[Randy]

Hi Randy,

It's in the passage. The version you quoted isn't as clear.

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
(Rev. 14:11-12 KJV)

The Greek word translated, here, literally means at this location. The word translated patience means endurance. This is during the Tribulation and the Saints are there during this time. If this is talking about a place of eternal conscious torment then the saints are also there. But it's not. This is about those who are worshipping the beast. Another point is that the word translated worship is present tense. While they are worshipping the Beast they are suffering torment day and night. This passage doesn't say anything about them being dead or about their souls.

Look at the passage you quoted. It calls the Lake of Fire the second death. It's not the second life. For something to be the second one, it has to be like the first one. The first death is a physical death of the body, the second death is the same. At the judgement all will have been resurrected. So, all of the dead will again be in the body. At that time they will be judged. Those not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second death. They will be cast bodily into the Lake of Fire and die again. Thus, it is the second death.

I didn't state that were raised to life but judgment as to be condemned.
We know the righteous are clothed with immortality (new bodies) Nothing was taught about the wicked other than they rise to be condemned. Their souls or spirits.

We believe in 2 resurrections. The righteous and unrighteous.
John 5:29
and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

 

[Butch5]

I didn't state that were raised to life but judgment as to be condemned.
We know the righteous are clothed with immortality (new bodies) Nothing was taught about the wicked other than they rise to be condemned. Their souls or spirits.

We believe in 2 resurrections. The righteous and unrighteous.
John 5:29
and come out--those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

My point was that Rev. 14:11 doesn't show what happens to wicked people when they die. Those people weren't even dead.

What's raised for judgement is the body.