Bible Study HELL DOES NOT EXIST

[Randy]

My point was that Rev. 14:11 doesn't show what happens to wicked people when they die. Those people weren't even dead.

What's raised for judgement is the body.

Jesus went and preached the gospel to the "spirits" in prison. They were call the dead.
Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

There is a hades for the unrighteous dead. (their souls or spirits) I believe it be a place of suffering. There is a appointed they, (their spirits or souls), will rise to be condemned. Their place will be the lake of fire. After that day there is no more death.

 

[GodsGrace]

How does using the Biblical term cause confusion? Man is dust. The breath or spirit in man is God. Those combined form a soul.

The soul is not immortal. Tell me, why would God promise immortality to believers if they were already immortal? What point would that serve?

God said Genesis,

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Man is flesh not a spirit.

We're not eternal. The eternal life that is given by Christ comes in the next age, not this one. It's at the Resurrection.

Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Notice the receive in this time and that which is receive din the age to come. The word world is the word age. Eternal life is given in the age to come. That's at the Resurrection.

Paul wrote,

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Heb. 9:27 KJV)

It's the person being judged in the flesh. The person dies, they remain dead until the time of judgement.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (Jn. 5:28-30 KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-21:1 KJV)

Using certain words cause confusion because big minds have worked on what they mean and they know more than we do.
We all have the breath of life or we'd be dead.

This is not our spirit
and it is not our soul
and it certainly is not our body.

We are composed of these 3 attributes.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where does Paul mention the breath of life?
Why didn't he mention it?
Is there a verse in the NT that mentions this?

Job states that the breath means life....
Job 33:4
4The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

 

[Butch5]

Jesus went and preached the gospel to the "spirits" in prison. They were call the dead.
Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit
1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

There is a hades for the unrighteous dead. (their souls or spirits) I believe it be a place of suffering. There is a appointed they, (their spirits or souls), will rise to be condemned. Their place will be the lake of fire. After that day there is no more death.

Look at Peter 4:6 again. The Gospel was preached, past tense to the who are dead, present tense. What that means is that the Gospel was preached to them when they were alive.

1 Peter 3:18 is talking about demons. They were the demons who disobeyed in Noah's day.

 

[Butch5]

Using certain words cause confusion because big minds have worked on what they mean and they know more than we do.
We all have the breath of life or we'd be dead.

This is not our spirit
and it is not our soul
and it certainly is not our body.

We are composed of these 3 attributes.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Where does Paul mention the breath of life?
Why didn't he mention it?
Is there a verse in the NT that mentions this?

Job states that the breath means life....
Job 33:4
4The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Why don't you believe the Scriptures?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

This is crystal clear. God formed man from the dust of the ground. What is man? The dust of the ground. I don't think it gets any clearer than that. Then God breathed something out of Himself into man. That was the breath or spirit of life. Again, crystal clear. When God did that the man "BECAME" (something that he wasn't before) a living soul. Again, crystal clear.

So we see here how God created a soul. He took some dust and formed it into a man. Then He breathed, out of Himself, the breath or spirit of life into that man. From this we conclude that a soul consists of a man, dust of the ground, and the breath or spirit of life. If God takes that breath or spirit of life out of that soul, that soul no longer exists because it no longer has one of its components. The Scriptures tell us that when that happens that breath or spirit of life returns to God and the body returns to the dust. That's all there is. There's nothing left. There's nothing to live on.

We see that there aren't three parts to man, but rather that a soul consists of two parts, the body of dust and the breath or spirit of God. So, the whole being, the soul, consists of the body of dust and the breath or spirit of God.

That's a clear statement in Scripture. If anyone reads a passage of Scripture and draws a different conclusion, they should question their understanding of the passage they're reading. So, if we see a passage of Scripture that speaks of the, body, soul, and spirit, we have to reconcile that with Gen 2:7. So, we understand that the soul is the whole living being. The spirit is the breath or spirit of life that is part of God. And, the body is that body of dust the returns to dust.

 

[Randy]

Look at Peter 4:6 again. The Gospel was preached, past tense to the who are dead, present tense. What that means is that the Gospel was preached to them when they were alive.

1 Peter 3:18 is talking about demons. They were the demons who disobeyed in Noah's day.

The people in the whole world who died in the flood were not demons. Only 8 were saved on the Ark.
1 Peter 3:18 is not speaking of saving demons.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why don't you believe the Scriptures?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

This is crystal clear. God formed man from the dust of the ground. What is man? The dust of the ground. I don't think it gets any clearer than that. Then God breathed something out of Himself into man. That was the breath or spirit of life. Again, crystal clear. When God did that the man "BECAME" (something that he wasn't before) a living soul. Again, crystal clear.

So we see here how God created a soul. He took some dust and formed it into a man. Then He breathed, out of Himself, the breath or spirit of life into that man. From this we conclude that a soul consists of a man, dust of the ground, and the breath or spirit of life. If God takes that breath or spirit of life out of that soul, that soul no longer exists because it no longer has one of its components. The Scriptures tell us that when that happens that breath or spirit of life returns to God and the body returns to the dust. That's all there is. There's nothing left. There's nothing to live on.

We see that there aren't three parts to man, but rather that a soul consists of two parts, the body of dust and the breath or spirit of God. So, the whole being, the soul, consists of the body of dust and the breath or spirit of God.

That's a clear statement in Scripture. If anyone reads a passage of Scripture and draws a different conclusion, they should question their understanding of the passage they're reading. So, if we see a passage of Scripture that speaks of the, body, soul, and spirit, we have to reconcile that with Gen 2:7. So, we understand that the soul is the whole living being. The spirit is the breath or spirit of life that is part of God. And, the body is that body of dust the returns to dust.

I give up Butch.
You REALLY need to study some theology.
Sorry to be so personal, but I really think it would help you a lot.

I studied discipleship for a year and it helped me tremendously.
Included in this was the dichotomy of man and trichotomy of man ---
this helped me greatly to understand myself, and how to be a better person. (I'm not insinuating that you're not ...)

By theology, I just mean the things of God.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The Catholic Church NEVER taught that donations and prayers get people out of hell...
you're getting mixed up with purgatory .... it would lessen the time in purgatory.

Also, hell IS escapable...
through belief in Jesus and in following His commandments.

Where does limbo come in?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Could this be limbo?

 

[Butch5]

The people in the whole world who died in the flood were not demons. Only 8 were saved on the Ark.
1 Peter 3:18 is not speaking of saving demons.

The people who died in the flood were dead. There's no point preaching to dead people, they can't hear. Do you see the fallacy in your reasoning? You're assuming that dead people are alive and can be preached to. You then use this assumption as proof that dead people are alive and can be preached to. It's the fallacy of circular reasoning.

They were demons. We see that a few verses later.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Pet. 3:1 KJV)

Peter's statement here about baptism is an aside. He speaks of Christ who preached to the spirits in prison. Then he says "who is gone into Heaven". Notice what he say about angels, authorities, and powers. They had been made subject to Him. That is the proclamation that He made to the spirits in prison. Remember, after the resurrection all authority was given to Christ. So, He went and proclaimed that authority to the spirits, demons, in prison who had been disobedient in Noah's day.

 

[Butch5]

I give up Butch.
You REALLY need to study some theology.
Sorry to be so personal, but I really think it would help you a lot.

I studied discipleship for a year and it helped me tremendously.
Included in this was the dichotomy of man and trichotomy of man ---
this helped me greatly to understand myself, and how to be a better person. (I'm not insinuating that you're not ...)

By theology, I just mean the things of God.

No offense taken. I've been where you are. I struggled with the same things you're struggling with. I couldn't defend what I believed. There were always verses that said differently than what I believed. No offense, but, no thanks. I don't want to go back there. I like being in a place where "ALL" of the Scriptures fit together in a nice neat package rather than having this passage and that passage that doesn't fit. I don't have to change the meaning of words, etc.

I have studied, however, I've studied the Scriptures in depth and the original faith rather than theology books from modern commentators. I wanted to know what Christians believed in 100 Ad, not 1900 Ad. What modern Christians believe isn't really relevant. If I read a modern commentator I've got to try to see through his biases. He, just like me, has 2000 years of baggage to sort through to see what is true and what isn't. However, when I go back to read those who were there I get a historical perspective rather than an interpretation. If I want to know what Ignatius believed I read Ignatius. Reading a modern commentary on Ignatius only tells me what the commentator thinks Ignatius believed. Seek primary sources for all of you information and you'll be less likely to be influenced by others biases.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where does limbo come in?

The church never taught limbo...
but it also never disclaimed it.
It was a myth that was never debunked and so everyone came to believe the church taught this.

Where it came from is this:
Before Augustine all was OK with original sin as being the first sin committed by Adam.

After Augustine his teachings made original sin a total mess.
He taught that Adam's sin was IMPUTED to each and every one of us.
So.....
If a baby was not baptized and died,,,it was believed he could not be accepted into heaven because
of Revelation 21:27.
People couldn't accept that a baby went to hell (and correctly so)...so this "limbo" was made up by someone or other.
The CC does not teach that unbaptized babies go to hell,,,but that we rely on the mercy of God.
CCC Paragraph 1261

 

[GodsGrace]

No offense taken. I've been where you are. I struggled with the same things you're struggling with. I couldn't defend what I believed. There were always verses that said differently than what I believed. No offense, but, no thanks. I don't want to go back there. I like being in a place where "ALL" of the Scriptures fit together in a nice neat package rather than having this passage and that passage that doesn't fit. I don't have to change the meaning of words, etc.

Thanks.
I'm not struggling.
I also could defend what I believe...and this from the theologians of two mainline churches and from studying the bible for about 40 years.
I will admit that there's so much more to know.....Not being a scholar, I must also dedicate myself to family and other responsibilities.
I truly feel that I do not understand anything differently than what scripture states.
All passages "fit".
I don't change the meaning of words....it's just that sometimes a word does not get translated properly. Begotten, not made, means that begotten does not mean made, something made.

But, I'm happy that you're happy and I believe you're a devoted person.

I have studied, however, I've studied the Scriptures in depth and the original faith rather than theology books from modern commentators.

I agree!
So then why don't we agree??
I use the Dictionary of the Early Fathers but it's at my house right now and I don't have access to it at this time since I'm away from home.
I also dislike using commentaries, but I do remember that what I linked is what the ECFs stated.

I wanted to know what Christians believed in 100 Ad, not 1900 Ad. What modern Christians believe isn't really relevant. If I read a modern commentator I've got to try to see through his biases. He, just like me, has 2000 years of baggage to sort through to see what is true and what isn't. However, when I go back to read those who were there I get a historical perspective rather than an interpretation. If I want to know what Ignatius believed I read Ignatius. Reading a modern commentary on Ignatius only tells me what the commentator thinks Ignatius believed. Seek primary sources for all of you information and you'll be less likely to be influenced by others biases.

Again, I agree.
Ignatius (of Antioch) studied with John and Peter.
Clement of Rome studied with Paul and Peter.
Polycarp studied with John.
Saint Iranaeus studied with Polycarp.
Maybe Justin Martye belongs in this group...

After that it gets watered down...but we're up to about 200AD.

I do, however, listen to what everyone has to say...sometimes it could spark an understanding.
I don't like to think I know everything because that keeps us from learning new ideas.

Anyway, we'll bump into each other again....

 

[Butch5]

Thanks.
I'm not struggling.
I also could defend what I believe...and this from the theologians of two mainline churches and from studying the bible for about 40 years.
I will admit that there's so much more to know.....Not being a scholar, I must also dedicate myself to family and other responsibilities.
I truly feel that I do not understand anything differently than what scripture states.
All passages "fit".
I don't change the meaning of words....it's just that sometimes a word does not get translated properly. Begotten, not made, means that begotten does not mean made, something made.

But, I'm happy that you're happy and I believe you're a devoted person.



I agree!
So then why don't we agree??
I use the Dictionary of the Early Fathers but it's at my house right now and I don't have access to it at this time since I'm away from home.
I also dislike using commentaries, but I do remember that what I linked is what the ECFs stated.


Again, I agree.
Ignatius (of Antioch) studied with John and Peter.
Clement of Rome studied with Paul and Peter.
Polycarp studied with John.
Saint Iranaeus studied with Polycarp.
Maybe Justin Martye belongs in this group...

After that it gets watered down...but we're up to about 200AD.

I do, however, listen to what everyone has to say...sometimes it could spark an understanding.
I don't like to think I know everything because that keeps us from learning new ideas.

Anyway, we'll bump into each other again....

Then I don't understand how you adhere to the idea of a 1 in 3 God concept when Paul states that to Christians there is one God, the Father. Jesus said of the Father that He was the only true God. However we understand Jesus' Deity, I don't see how we can understand it in any way that would run counter to these statements.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The church never taught limbo...
but it also never disclaimed it.
It was a myth that was never debunked and so everyone came to believe the church taught this.

Where it came from is this:
Before Augustine all was OK with original sin as being the first sin committed by Adam.

After Augustine his teachings made original sin a total mess.
He taught that Adam's sin was IMPUTED to each and every one of us.
So.....
If a baby was not baptized and died,,,it was believed he could not be accepted into heaven because
of Revelation 21:27.
People couldn't accept that a baby went to hell (and correctly so)...so this "limbo" was made up by someone or other.
The CC does not teach that unbaptized babies go to hell,,,but that we rely on the mercy of God.
CCC Paragraph 1261

That's the same as Muslims.
"Allah the merciful".....

 

[Delete_me]

Also, whatever you believe about hell being real or not has NOTHING to do with your salvation.

Other than there's nothing to be saved from, but besides that....

 

[Who Me]

Would you have some scripture to support never-ending torment?
What is hell anyway?

These verses suggest that when a non-believer dies,,,he just disappears, he is "destructed".
Matthew 7:13 The way is broad that leads to DESTRUCTION
John 3:16 The saved shall not PERISH
1 Thessalonians 5:3 DESTRUCTION will come upon them

You mean you are not aware of the verse where Jesus talked about torment, place where the worm does not die, of being thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and wailing and bashing of teeth?


This is one of those ' endless genealogies ' we are told to avoid.

The rejecting of hell or what ever alternative you prefer is always accompanied by a promotion of annihilation in the mistaken belief this is more merciful.

Talk to atheists, they do not fear annihilation, but an eternity of torment they do not like that idea.

 

[Randy]

The people who died in the flood were dead. There's no point preaching to dead people, they can't hear. Do you see the fallacy in your reasoning? You're assuming that dead people are alive and can be preached to. You then use this assumption as proof that dead people are alive and can be preached to. It's the fallacy of circular reasoning.

They were demons. We see that a few verses later.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1 Pet. 3:1 KJV)

Peter's statement here about baptism is an aside. He speaks of Christ who preached to the spirits in prison. Then he says "who is gone into Heaven". Notice what he say about angels, authorities, and powers. They had been made subject to Him. That is the proclamation that He made to the spirits in prison. Remember, after the resurrection all authority was given to Christ. So, He went and proclaimed that authority to the spirits, demons, in prison who had been disobedient in Noah's day.

I didn't assume
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah

Those people died apart from the law and pre Christ.

 

[Butch5]

I didn't assume
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah

Those people died apart from the law and pre Christ.

You're assuming they're people. Can you show from Scripture that these are people? As I pointed out angels, powers and principalities were made subject to Him.

 

[Randy]

You're assuming they're people. Can you show from Scripture that these are people? As I pointed out angels, powers and principalities were made subject to Him.

Its clear to me he is speaking about people.
to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

You think God was waiting patiently for angels while the ark was built?

Come on Butch. Its about people who were disobedient and suffered Gods judgment.

 

[Butch5]

Its clear to me he is speaking about people.
to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

You think God was waiting patiently for angels while the ark was built?

Come on Butch. Its about people who were disobedient and suffered Gods judgment.

It's clear to you because you believe dead people are alive. If dead people are dead, then those spirits aren't people, they're angels.

This is the problem with starting with the immortal soul doctrine as a base. Man is not a spirit. Man is a flesh being animated by the breath or spirit of life from God. When that breath or spirit returns to God the man is dead. That means those spirits Jesus spoke to were angels.

That's why I asked you to establish the premise in your statement, that these spirits are people. Where does the Bible ever refer to people as spirits?