Hell Fire

[RND]

RND if you will but read Isa.33, the entire context you will understand its not the righteous dwelling in everlasting burning but the wicked. You have the righteous dwelling in everlasting burning and the fortress in a high place.

duval the verses can't be any more clear. The sinners of Zion are declaring that only the righteous live in everlasting burnings.

The text speaks to the future of the sinner, that of everlasting burning and the future of the righteous, the fortress in a high place.

Nope.

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire?
Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseact ... seID/18294

Regarding Rev.14:10 your question has been answered. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, Ezek.33 and God's presence is everywhere. Ps.139. Why not wrestle with those passages?

Why not just answer the question that I asked instead of proving me right? You are evading the direct question I asked: Is Jesus in hell watching people get tormented? Yes or no?

Do Psalms 139 or Ezekiel 33 say that God is watching the wicked burn forever or do they say the wicked die?

"A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still!"

 

[turnorburn]

Its for sure and its for certain the devil believes in a literal Hell and he's working on
a plan to take as many as he can with him. Don't believe me ask him, on second
thought he'd just lie to you anyways.

turnorburn

 

[RND]

Its for sure and its for certain the devil believes in a literal Hell and he's working on a plan to take as many as he can with him.

A "literal" hell? The grave.

Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he? 11 [As] the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. 13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

That word I highlighted "grave" is translated from the Hebrew word sh'owl.

Don't believe me ask him, on second thought he'd just lie to you anyways.

Indeed the first one he told was that man was immortal.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

BTW turnorburn I find it most helpful to quote scripture whenever I'm looking to make a substantial point. Otherwise the discussion is simply a "does too/does not" argument.

One other thing if I can ask. If you can't imagine using force, fear, intimidation or manipulation to make other people love you what makes you think the creator of love uses force, fear, intimidation or manipulation?

Would it be love if you threatened your wife or other loved one with a threat such as, "Love me or I'll smash you in the face?"

Force, fear, intimidation or manipulation are the trademarks of the beast, not God. In fact the one thing God can not do is make anyone love Him. He can only show just how wonderful His love is to win the heart of sinful man.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

He even loves those that hate Him.

 

[turnorburn]

Its for sure and its for certain the devil believes in a literal Hell and he's working on
a plan to take as many as he can with him. Don't believe me ask him, on second
thought he'd just lie to you anyways.

turnorburn

Brother do you know how many souls slip off into hell every minute, maybe you would
like to tell me how its done.

 

[duval]

In Isa.33, the righteous do not dwell with everlasting burnings, only the wicked. Vs. 12 reads of the wicked: '-----like thorns cut up they shall be burned in the fire---"

Ezek.33:11 says God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. However you read it, God has no pleasure in it.

Ps.139 tells of the Lord's presence, yes "presence" the very word that troubles you in Rev.14:10, the Lord's PRESENCE is everywhere. I didn't say it, the inspired writer did.

 

[RND]

Brother do you know how many souls slip off into hell every minute, maybe you would like to tell me how its done.

Maybe you'd be interested and kind enough to address the OP or the direct questions I asked you?

1) If you can't imagine using force, fear, intimidation or manipulation to make other people love you what makes you think the creator of love uses force, fear, intimidation or manipulation?

2) Would it be love if you threatened your wife or other loved one with a threat such as, "Love me or I'll smash you in the face?"

 

[RND]

In Isa.33, the righteous do not dwell with everlasting burnings, only the wicked. Vs. 12 reads of the wicked: '-----like thorns cut up they shall be burned in the fire---"

Is this any different than anywhere else in the scriptures where is demonstrates the wicked being "destroyed" or "burned up?"

duval verse 12 says in conjunction with verses 10 and 11:

Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up myself. 11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you. 12 And the people shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

That YHWH will rise up and He shall conceive chaff and bring forth stubble. The "fire" of YHWH's breath will devour the stubble and the chaff. The "wicked" will be "devoured" by the Word of God. When one is "devoured" in something they can not "dwell" in it.

The comparison that the word or breath of God is fire and brings destruction is certainly that is mentioned several times in scripture.

Job 4:9 By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

Job 41:21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

Isa 30:33 For Tophet [is] ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made [it] deep [and] large: the pile thereof [is] fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Ezek.33:11 says God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. However you read it, God has no pleasure in it.

No question. Yet that is a far cry from saying God tortures people forever. The "wicked" die, they are "consumed" by the word of God.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

And yet, even God gives the wicked a chance to "turn" from their ways:

Eze 33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ps.139 tells of the Lord's presence, yes "presence" the very word that troubles you in Rev.14:10, the Lord's PRESENCE is everywhere. I didn't say it, the inspired writer did.

How about just answering the question I asked duval?

Is Jesus in hell watching people get tormented? Yes or no?

"A man convinced his will is of the same opinion still!"

 

[duval]

RND wrote of Isa.33:14,15: 'AND WHAT DOES IT SAY THAT THESE RIGHTEOUS DO IN ORDER TO DWELL ON HIGH DUVAL? they dwell with the devouing fire and with everlasting burnings." Wrong again RND. You have it just backwards. Its the sinner of Zion of vs 14 who shall so dwell in everlasting burnings. You have the horse before the cart.

 

[RND]

Wrong again RND. You have it just backwards. Its the sinner of Zion of vs 14 who shall so dwell in everlasting burnings. You have the horse before the cart.

Verses 10 through 12 say duval that the wicked are devoured by flame no "dwelling" in it.

Isa 33:10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD (YHWH); now will I (YHWH) be exalted; now will I (YHWH) lift up myself. 11 Ye (YHWH) shall conceive chaff, ye (YHWH) shall bring forth stubble: your breath (YHWH's breath), [as] fire, shall devour you (YHWH's breath devours the wicked). 12 And the people (Sinners) shall be [as] the burnings of lime: [as] thorns cut up shall they (Sinners) be burned in the fire.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us (The sinners in Zion) shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us (The sinners in Zion) shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Who or what is that devouring fire?

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, [so] drive [them] away: as wax melteth before the fire, [so] let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Psa 106:18 And a fire was kindled in their company; the flame burned up the wicked.

 

[duval]

RND responded to TURNORBURN with 2 numerical statements. I shall note each:

1. 'IF YOU CAN'T IMAGINE USING FORCE, FEAR, INTIMIDATION OR MAIPULATION TO MAKE OTHER PEOPLE LOVE YOU WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THE CREATOR OF LOVE USES FORCE, FEAR, INTIMADATIONS?
My answer to RND regarding the above is this, I shall remove the word "force" from your proposition because God does not use "force" in the way you use it in your proposition. I shall also remove the word "intimadation" from your proposition for God does not intimadate. I shall remove the word manipulation from your proposition as God does not manipulate. (I notice you are very sly about inserting words in your propositiolns such as "roasting" and "toasting" as you did with Rev.14:11 and we shall yet get to that verse, words you use because you know you are very safe by using such words) Now, consider these passages regarding your above statement: "OR DESPISEST THKOU THE RICHES OF HIS GOODNESS AND FORBEARANCE AND LONGSUFFERING; NOT KNOWING THAT THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEADETH THEE TO REPENTANCE? BUT AFTER THKY HARDNESS AND IMPENITENT HEART TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH AGAINST THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD WHO WILLRENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS" Rom.2:4,5. Pretty strng language warning the sinner and it even speaks of "THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD." Or, how about this one: 'FOR WE MUST ALL APPEAAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY , ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD. KNOWING THEREFORE THE TERROR OF THE LORD, WE PERSUADE MEN----" The terror of the Lord??? The terror of the Lord being preached?? The terrof the Lord being preached to persuade men??

I see I have used 2 passages to uproot false doctrine when only one would have been sufficient. And there are others, but I shall be moderate. And also, I shall not attend to your 2nd statement to Turnorburn for these and other passages would also reply and no need to duplicate.

 

[duval]

Now RND uses Ps.68:2: 'AS SMOKE IS DRIVEN AWAY, SO DRIVE THEM AWAY: AS WAX MELTETH BEFORE THE FIRE, SO LET THE WICKED PERISH AT THE PRESENCE OF GOD.' Now, RND, this is a verse you introduced. It has the wicked perishing in the presense of God, just as Rev.14:10 has the wicked perishing in the presence of the Lamb. I simply cite scripture, it says whether your or I or anyone else like it or not, its done in the "PRESENCE' '' of God. I won't try to explain it away. I accept it.

 

[RND]

RND responded to TURNORBURN with 2 numerical statements. I shall note each:

Actually duval I had some statements and asked 2 questions. I notice you only actually attempted to answer one.

1. 'IF YOU CAN'T IMAGINE USING FORCE, FEAR, INTIMIDATION OR MAIPULATION TO MAKE OTHER PEOPLE LOVE YOU WHAT MAKES YOU THINK THE CREATOR OF LOVE USES FORCE, FEAR, INTIMADATIONS?
My answer to RND regarding the above is this, I shall remove the word "force" from your proposition because God does not use "force" in the way you use it in your proposition.

That's right! God, who is love does not use force to produce love.

I shall also remove the word "intimadation" from your proposition for God does not intimadate.

That's right! God, who is love does not use intimidation to produce love.

I shall remove the word manipulation from your proposition as God does not manipulate. (I notice you are very sly about inserting words in your propositiolns such as "roasting" and "toasting" as you did with Rev.14:11 and we shall yet get to that verse, words you use because you know you are very safe by using such words)

That's right! God, who is love does not use manipulation to produce love. I noticed that you missed "fear" duval. Does God use fear to produce love or does perfect love cast out all fear?

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Also, what other words would you use to describe the pagan notion that God is waiting to use eternal flames to punish sinners for eternity?

Now, consider these passages regarding your above statement: "OR DESPISEST THKOU THE RICHES OF HIS GOODNESS AND FORBEARANCE AND LONGSUFFERING; NOT KNOWING THAT THE GOODNESS OF GOD LEADETH THEE TO REPENTANCE? BUT AFTER THKY HARDNESS AND IMPENITENT HEART TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH AGAINST THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD WHO WILLRENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS" Rom.2:4,5. Pretty strng language warning the sinner and it even speaks of "THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD."

Do these verses say anything about continual torture forever? Is it God's heart that leads to those that reject God or is it the heart of men that does? Lastly if every man is judged according to his deeds what about those that have for the most part have always done good for others but maybe didn't know Jesus?

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Clearly it is the "doers" of God's word that are justified, not the "hearers."

Or, how about this one: 'FOR WE MUST ALL APPEAAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY , ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD. KNOWING THEREFORE THE TERROR OF THE LORD, WE PERSUADE MEN----" The terror of the Lord??? The terror of the Lord being preached?? The terrof the Lord being preached to persuade men??

Clearly it is the "doers" of God's word that are justified, not the "hearers." Why would someone be terrified to appear in front of a just and loving God when they are washed in the blood of Christ? Why would anyone be terrified to be in the presence of God?

duval are you married? If so, do you love your wife? Are you "terrified" to be in her presence? duval do you have children? If so, do you love your children? Are you "terrified" to be in the presence of you children?

I see I have used 2 passages to uproot false doctrine when only one would have been sufficient.

Except neither one of those passages that you used say anything about "continual torture."

And there are others, but I shall be moderate. And also, I shall not attend to your 2nd statement to Turnorburn for these and other passages would also reply and no need to duplicate.

Question duval, second question!

 

[RND]

Now RND uses Ps.68:2: 'AS SMOKE IS DRIVEN AWAY, SO DRIVE THEM AWAY: AS WAX MELTETH BEFORE THE FIRE, SO LET THE WICKED PERISH AT THE PRESENCE OF GOD.' Now, RND, this is a verse you introduced. It has the wicked perishing in the presense of God, just as Rev.14:10 has the wicked perishing in the presence of the Lamb.

Now you're getting it duval even if you don't know you're getting it!

The wicked "perish" and are "devoured" (as in die, not tortured) in the presence of God duval not that they "live forever" in the presence of God. They can not stand being in the presence of the light (flames make light!) that is God's Holiness. This is something only angels and the righteous can do!

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psa 135:2 Ye that stand in the house of the LORD, in the courts of the house of our God,

Pro 12:7 The wicked are overthrown, and [are] not: but the house of the righteous shall stand.

Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

I simply cite scripture, it says whether your or I or anyone else like it or not, its done in the "PRESENCE' '' of God. I won't try to explain it away. I accept it.

The wicked "perish" and are "devoured" (as in die, not tortured) in the presence of God duval not that they "live forever" in the presence of God. They can not stand being in the presence of the light (flames make light!) that is God's Holiness. This is something only angels and the righteous can do!

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire, [even] a jealous God.

Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psa 135:2 Ye that stand in the house of the LORD, in the courts of the house of our God,

Pro 12:7 The wicked are overthrown, and [are] not: but the house of the righteous shall stand.

Luk 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

PS duval: What happens to the wax of a candle as it melts? Is it the "wax" that burns or is it the flame?

 

[St Francis]

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

 

[Rick W]

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

 

[codenamehsk]

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

The Bible says that only God is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:15,16
Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Could you explain what is spirit.

 

[ProphetMark]

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

That's what I'd have thought. One question has occurred to me as a result of reading this thread though: Why then is it referred to as the 2nd death?

 

[St Francis]

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

The Bible says that only God is immortal......

That is incorrect. God is "eternal", not immortal. To be eternal is to have no beginning and no end. Only God is eternal. To be "immortal" is to have a beginning but no end. Our spirits DO have a beginning, but they will have no end: That is immortality. Thus we are immortal. But only God is "eternal."

So, the question is not "Does hell last forever", but rather "Do we last forever". The answer is YES, we do. So whatever state you find yourself in after judgement - heaven or hell - is the state you will be in for all time to come.

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

That's what I'd have thought. One question has occurred to me as a result of reading this thread though: Why then is it referred to as the 2nd death?

This may seem a bit off subject, but I found the term "second death" mentioned in the following Q&A about the millenium. Perhaps it will shed some light:


Q: Catholic teaching holds that the millennium mentioned in Revelation 20:1-10 is going on now. What does the Catholic Church see as fulfilling the particular details of this prophecy?

A: There is no single mandated interpretation of all the details in this passage. However, one authentically Catholic interpretation of the passage might run as follows:

Early in the Christian age, Satan was bound (20:1–2) for "a thousand years," signifying a long but indefinite period (just as the assertion that God owns "the cattle on a thousand hills" means he own the cattle on all the hillsâ€â€a large but indeterminate number).

Jesus himself had promised the binding of the devilâ€â€the "strong man"â€â€as a precondition for the spreading of the gospel (Matt. 12:29 in context). In revelation, the devil is depicted as shut up and sealed in the abyss (v. 3a). Incorporeal spirits such as the devil do not actually occupy space and cannot be "shut up" in spatial reasons, so the meaning of this is that he can no more deceive the "nations" (or "gentiles"â€â€the word is the same in Greek) until the thousand years is over (v. 3b).

The result is that the gospel can be preached and spread until that time. Afterwards, there will be an apostasy among the nations/gentiles, when the devil will be able to deceive them into turning against the true God (v. 3c).

In the meantime, God has set up the thrones of the saints in heaven (cf. 4:4)â€â€especially those who had withstood the persecutions of the early Church and been beheaded under the pagan emperors. They spiritually came to life and reigned with Christ in heaven for the duration of the millennium (20:4). The dead as a whole, however, were not resurrected until after the millennium (v. 5a).

The spiritual resurrection experienced by the saints in heaven is known as "the first resurrection" (v. 5b), and it signifies that one will not be cast into hell to experience "the second death" (v. 6).

After the millennium, the devil, released from his bondage, is again able to deceive the nations/gentiles and gather them against God's people (vv. 7–8). But they are destroyed by Christ at the Second Coming and cast into hell (vv. 9–10).

source: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9906qq.asp

 

[RND]

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

Would it be too much trouble to ask for one verse than says a "spirit" is immortal?

 

[RND]

That is incorrect. God is "eternal", not immortal.

There are several verses that refer to Jesus as being "immortal" or having "immortality" and none that refer to man or his "spirit" as being "immortal" or having "immortality" without God doing something in advance.

1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. (Describes that the body is "mortal). 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, (Describes that the body is "mortal) then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Ti 6:16 Who (Jesus) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

To be eternal is to have no beginning and no end. Only God is eternal. To be "immortal" is to have a beginning but no end. Our spirits DO have a beginning, but they will have no end: That is immortality. Thus we are immortal. But only God is "eternal."

Using that definition then there is no such thing as "eternal punishment" because obviously that punishment would require a beginning.

So, the question is not "Does hell last forever", but rather "Do we last forever". The answer is YES, we do. So whatever state you find yourself in after judgement - heaven or hell - is the state you will be in for all time to come.

It would be helpful to provide just one verse that suggests that man is "immortal."