Hell Fire

[St Francis]

Who says he didnt?

Scripture. Moshe Rabbeinu specifically.....

We have no idea what things God may have said to Adam that are not recorded. That was my point. Just because it isn't rrecorded doesn't mean God didn't speak of it. It merely means that we don't know if He did or not.

 

[RND]

We have no idea what things God may have said to Adam that are not recorded. That was my point. Just because it isn't rrecorded doesn't mean God didn't speak of it. It merely means that we don't know if He did or not.

Let me appeal then to your sense of reason. Wouldn't you consider it reasonable that such a drastic and terrible consequence for disobeying the commandment of God as "eternally burning in hell" would merit some sort of mention by God directly to whom He was making this known?

It seems likely to me that a God caring enough to provide Adam a warning as to what would happen to him if he disobeyed God would surely be kind enough to provide a detailed report as to what would happen to Adam if he disobeyed.

The fact that it is not recorded that Adam would roast forever and that Adam would die tells me that roasting forever was not in the cards.

 

[St Francis]

We have no idea what things God may have said to Adam that are not recorded. That was my point. Just because it isn't rrecorded doesn't mean God didn't speak of it. It merely means that we don't know if He did or not.

Let me appeal then to your sense of reason. Wouldn't you consider it reasonable that such a drastic and terrible consequence for disobeying the commandment of God as "eternally burning in hell" would merit some sort of mention by God directly to whom He was making this known? .....

Your question is based on a false premise, that hell is eternal fire. For the umpteenth time, the point is that your spirit is immortal, and when you die you either die in friendship with God or not. And whatever state you find yourself in at death (after God's judgment) is the state you will continue to exist in.

When God told Adam that Adam would die if he disobeyed him, he did not mean bodily (obviously, since they didn't die) he meant "spiritually". In a phrase, they "fell from grace". They were not in a right relationship with God. So God DID tell Adam he was in deep manure

The author of Genesis did not have as his purpose the job of articulating the afterlife. Genesis has another purpose: To explain that God created the heavens and the earth and created man in his own image. THAT is Genesis in a nutshell. For you to expect the author of Genesis to start articulating various doctrines is ridiculous.

 

[RND]

Your question is based on a false premise, that hell is eternal fire.

I agree! The notion of hell being "eternal fire" is false and simply untrue. Thanks for your confirmation!

For the umpteenth time, the point is that your spirit is immortal, and when you die you either die in friendship with God or not. And whatever state you find yourself in at death (after God's judgment) is the state you will continue to exist in.

But that's just it, no where in scripture is man considered "immortal." Our mortal must put on "immortality." When does this happen? At Christ's return.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

When God told Adam that Adam would die if he disobeyed him, he did not mean bodily (obviously, since they didn't die) he meant "spiritually". In a phrase, they "fell from grace". They were not in a right relationship with God. So God DID tell Adam he was in deep manure

Where do the scriptures show that when Adam died he died "spiritually" and not "physically?" Did not Adam die physically?

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

muwth = to die

The author of Genesis did not have as his purpose the job of articulating the afterlife.

Wow! That's absolutely pure speculation! Do you have any scripture that may confirm your speculation?

Genesis has another purpose: To explain that God created the heavens and the earth and created man in his own image. THAT is Genesis in a nutshell.

Obviously you haven't read Genesis in a while. The purpose of the book's purpose is much more intricate, complicated and informative than such a simplistic view.

For you to expect the author of Genesis to start articulating various doctrines is ridiculous.

Is that any more ridiculous than you presupposing you know the mind of Moses? I guess that explains why I never see you quote scripture in most of your posts.

 

[St Francis]

....I guess that explains why I never see you quote scripture in most of your posts.

And what explain how you mangle scripture in most of your posts?

I don't believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe in a teaching Church. Why would I follow the method that has led you so far astray?

 

[RND]

And what explain how you mangle scripture in most of your posts?

Is that based on what others tell you about scripture?

I don't believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe in a teaching Church.

Hey, so do I frankly. But I'm interested in a church that uses the actual scriptures to teach from and not just tradition.

Why would I follow the method that has led you so far astray?

I don't know, why would you? Did your church tell you to question Moshe Rabbeinu by saying, "The author of Genesis did not have as his purpose the job of articulating the afterlife." The "author" of Genesis is also the same "author" of the other books of the Pentateuch. Yet none of the other books of the Pentateuch seem to discuss the notion that man has an eternal soul that will be unmercifully torched in flames forever and ever. Why is that do you suppose? Check with your priest and get back with me.

Now, what say we we stay on the point that the OP has been trying to address and not turn this into a "sola scriptura" debate? I don't want to see this thread devolved into such a discussion frankly. If you have something you'd like to see specifically debated bring your topic and your lunch to the debate forum.

 

[St Francis]

More SDA blah blah blah

 

[duval]

RND WROTE: "Being they are no longer in the presences of Jesus means that they are no longer 'in the light' and it is that light that sustains life." Please RND, just one passage which states one ever escapes the presense of God, just one!
And, what about Lk.16:31?
And, what about my answer to your previous posts on Rev.14:10,11?
And, what about my offer to meet you in the "one on one" forum on the Bible view of "die", "death" etc?

 

[RND]

RND WROTE: "Being they are no longer in the presences of Jesus means that they are no longer 'in the light' and it is that light that sustains life." Please RND, just one passage which states one ever escapes the presense of God, just one!

Just as soon as you answer my question duval with a yes or no answer. You know what that question is duval. It's the one I predicted no one would answer.

And, what about Lk.16:31?

If they don't believe the law and the prohets they won't believe the one that rose from the dead. Question. Who rose from the dead?

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

And, what about my answer to your previous posts on Rev.14:10,11?

Haven't got to it yet. Patience.

And, what about my offer to meet you in the "one on one" forum on the Bible view of "die", "death" etc?

What about it? As I said to St. Francis if you have something you'd like to see specifically debated bring your topicand your lunch to the debate forum.

 

[St Francis]

.....the Bible view of "die", "death" etc?

duval:
Do you think that in Genesis 2:17 when God tells Adam "thou shalt surely die", that in the Hebrew it means "die the death"? And do you think this refers to spiritual death? That is what I think. That is what I call "Mortal Sin" - sin that leads unto death.

Check out this blog entry where a guy summarizes Scott Hahn on this: https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogI ... 9159326719

 

[RND]

That is what I think.

That's great! Now, what's the Bible say? BTW, your blog link doesn't work.

 

[St Francis]

That is what I think.

That's great! Now, what's the Bible say? BTW, your blog link doesn't work.

1) The blog link works on my end

2) I wasn't asking you: I was asking duval

 

[RND]

1) The blog link works on my end

Is this where you want me to go? Jenifer's blog?

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogI ... 9159326719

2) I wasn't asking you: I was asking duval

It's a public forum right? If you intended your question to be answered privately then I suggest asking in private in the future. BTW, haven't you answered posts that I addressed to others? How come you can do it and I can't?

 

[duval]

Hi St Francis:
I believe the scripture teaches that on the day Adam ate of the fruit he died spirituallly, not physically. I believe the Bible teaches all sin leads to spiritual death unless that sin, any sin (except that of blasphemy of the Spirit)) is washed by the precious blood of Jesus.

 

[RND]

The truth in Satan's lie was this:

If there was any "truth" in Satan's lie then it wouldn't be a lie, and if there was a "lie" in Satan's truth then it wouldn't be truth.

What non-sense.

 

[nadab]

For one to accept that there is a "hellfire" that torments people, there has to be "something" that lives on after death. The churches teach that the soul is immortal.(literally "deathlessness", Greek, a·tha·na·si´an; Latin, in·mor·ta·li·ta´tem, Hebrew ’al-ma´weth, “no-death." ) What though is the soul ?

At Genesis 2:7, it reads that "Jehovah God proceeded to form man out of the dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul." What then is man ? "A living soul". He does not possess a soul but rather is one. As a "living soul", what happens to man when he sins ?

At Ezekiel 18:4, the account reads says that "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die." What can be quickly drawn from this ? That the soul is not immortal, but that it can and does die. That the soul is us as a person, can be seen from several scriptures. For example, at Leviticus 17:10, it says that "whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel....that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people."(King James Bible)

Thus man, as a "living soul" and that 'eats blood', was to be "cut off" or put to death for such a violation of God's law. To further show that the soul is as a person, Jeremiah 2:34 speaks that among the wicked is "found the blood of the souls of the poor innocents."(King James Bible) Hence, the soul is us a person with blood. When we die, we can be spoken of as "dead soul". Leviticus 21:11 says of the high priest, that "he should not come near any dead soul."(Literally, “souls of one dead.†Hebrew, naph·shoth´, pl., followed by meth, “deadâ€Â; Greek, psy·khei´ followed by te·te·leu·te·kui´ai, the perfect participle of “decease,†combine to mean “soul deceasedâ€Â; Sy, “soul of one deadâ€Â; Vg, “dead one.â€Â)

Ecclesiastes 9:5 says that "the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all." Only the living can be tormented, but the dead cannot. To show God's view of burning people in a fire, Jeremiah 7:30 says that " ' the sons of Judah have done what is bad ', is the utterance of Jehovah....And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart."

How could God torment the wicked in a fiery "hell" if such has "not come up into my heart" ? Indeed, how can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our enemies wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10) Not surprisingly, some people conclude that the nature of hell simply is not compatible with the nature of God, that this doctrine does not make moral sense.

At Jeremiah 32:35, God called the burning of the Israelite's sons and daughters, an "abomination".(King James Bible) God would be hypocritical if he condemned the burning of the sons and daughters of the Israelites but then he was guilty of it. The false religious teaching of a hellfire has it's roots from the ancient Egyptians. The Book Am-Tuat, dated 1375 B.C.E., speaks of those who "shall be cast down headlong into the pits of fire; and ....shall not escape therefrom, and....shall not be able to flee from the flames." Greek philosopher Plutarch (about 46-120 C.E.) wrote of those in the world below: "(They) raised a cry of wailing as they underwent fearful torments and ignominious and excruciating chastisements".

Hellfire does not cause one to love God, but rather to have a searing fear of him. The Catholic book Apparecchio alla morte (Preparation for Death), by S. Alfonso de Liguori, says that “Hellfire was expressly created by God to torment the damned soul. . . . He will be immersed in fire like a fish in water, yet the fire will not only surround him but also enter into his entrails to torment him. His very body will become a flame of fire, so that his entrails will burn inside his belly, his heart within his chest, his brain inside his head, his blood in his veins and even the marrow in his bones; each damned soul will himself become a furnace of fire.â€Â

One former Catholic priest, who later came to realize the true meaning of "hell" (Hebrew sheol, Greek hades) as the common grave of mankind, said concerning the above words: "Can you see why thoughts about the eternal torment of hell tortured me day and night? Try to put yourself in the shoes of an impressionable adolescent who has constantly been scared by the concept of a God more like a tyrant than a loving father. I was confused. Why, there were times when I doubted the very existence of God !" Thus, many have been disturbed about this teaching that the churches have promoted over the centuries. Some though have learned the truth about the Bible "hell".

 

[dadof10]

Ever put a camp fire out? That said we must keep in mind that this is 'metaphorical' and not 'literal.'

LOL...So the "smoke of their torment" is eternal, but their souls aren't. God "burns up" the soul and the REMNENT (whatever form that takes) is somehow eternal? LOL...OK.

Taken out of context? You are kidding right? God is always seen as light, not darkness.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Great! Here we go again. I NEVER claimed God is EVER darkness or not light. Could you please focus.

Can you find any verses that claim that once out of the "light of Christ" the soul ceases to exist?

Sure.

Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is Light, no darkness. Those that are in 'darkness' are walking in the shadow of death.

Not one of these verses claim "once out of the "light of Christ" the soul ceases to exist". NOT ONE. God is light. We agree. Now, do you have ANY verses that even suggest that (read carefully) the soul ceases to exist when removed from the light of Christ?

Are these wicked then always left in the "presence of the Lord" so they can be continually tormented by His presence?

No, they aren't. They are in the same place (state) that Satan is.

Just what I said. The torment is forever (as in permanent), not the torment "ing." The "torment" is the result of a permanent declaration of "punishment."

You're a dad of 10 (whew!) let me see if I can explain this to you in relation to your children.

Say one of you kids does something they shouldn't and you take away the car on prom night. Bummer! No wheels on prom night. The punishment and torment of your kid will last a lifetime for them, but maybe not you. They will forever remember the thing they did wrong that caused them to lose car privilege for a prom night. That punishment is permanent, it won't change. But the "punishing" the actual taking away the car for a night is not (unless of course you restrict your kids driving privilege forever, or at least until you die). Do you see the difference?

How can this "torment" last longer (forever) than the tormented? If the person who is tormented is eventually annihilated, how does the "punishment" last longer than the person does? The punishment and the "punishing" end at the same time. In your example above, does the memory of the event last longer than my kid's life, longer than his memory? Where do you get the notion that the memory of a punishment is the punishment itself? This is just silly semantics disguised as "theology".

 

[codenamehsk]

Hell lasts forever because your spirit is immortal. Thats it thats all.

This may sound strange but I've got a point to make.
Do animals have spirit?
Are their spirit "immortal"?
What happen when animals die? Do they go to heaven or hell?

 

[nadab]

Many will look at Jesus words, as rendered by the King James Bible, to say that "hell" is a place of torment", where he said, at Mark 9:47, that "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:" However, Jesus also says: "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."(King James Bible) If one is to believe that "hell fire" is place of torment forever, then are the ' worms ' there are also tormented ? And do they live forever, for it says that the it "dieth not" ?

On another occasion, Jesus spoke of a judgment period when he would say to the wicked: "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" He further said that these ones " shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."(Matt 25:41,46, King James Bible) Hence, what did Jesus mean when he spoke of a person's being thrown "into hell" ? Is the "everlasting fire" Jesus warned of literal or symbolic ? In what sense do the wicked "go away into everlasting punishment" ?

The original Greek word translated "hell fire" is Ge´en·na, which comes from the Hebrew Geh Hin·nom´,meaning “Valley of Hinnomâ€Â. The Valley of Hinnom was on the outskirts of ancient Jerusalem. In the days of the Israelite kings, it was used for child sacrifice - a disgusting practice that God condemned. God said that he would execute those who performed such an act of false worship. The Valley of Hinnom would then be called "the valley of slaughter", where "the carcases of this people" would lie unburied."(Jer 7:30-34, King James Bible)

God thus foretold that the Valley of Hinnom would become a place, not for the torture of live victims, but for the mass disposal of dead bodies. In Jesus' day, the inhabitants of Jerusalem used the Valley of Hinnom as a garbage dump. They threw the bodies of some vile criminals into this dump and kept a fire constantly burning there to dispose of the refuse and carcases.

When Jesus spoke of the undying worms and unquenchable fire, he was apparently alluding to Isaiah 66:24. Regarding "the carcases of the men that have transgressed against (God)," Isaiah says that "their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched."(King James Bible) Jesus and his listeners realized that these words in Isaiah referred to the treatment of the carcases of those not deserving a burial.

Therefore, Jesus used the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, as a fitting symbol of death without hope of a resurrection. He drove this point home when he warned that God "can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna".(Matt 10:28) Gehenna is a symbol of eternal death, not eternal torture.

The "everlasting fire" mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41, was prepared "for the Devil and his angels". Is it reasonable to think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures ? Jesus was obviously using the term "fire" symbolically. Just as the "sheep" and "goats" spoken of at Matthew 25:32,33 are symbolic, picturing two types of people, so likewise the "everlasting fire" that Jesus spoke of completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.

So, in what sense do the wicked "go away into everlasting punishment" ? Although most translations use the word "punishment" at Matthew 25:46, the basic meaning of the Greek word ko´la·sin is "checking the growth of trees", or pruning, cutting off needless branches. So while the sheeplike ones receive everlasting life, the unrepentant goatlike ones suffer "everlasting punishment", being forever cut off from life.

 

[dadof10]

So, in what sense do the wicked "go away into everlasting punishment" ? Although most translations use the word "punishment" at Matthew 25:46, the basic meaning of the Greek word ko´la·sin is "checking the growth of trees", or pruning, cutting off needless branches. So while the sheeplike ones receive everlasting life, the unrepentant goatlike ones suffer "everlasting punishment", being forever cut off from life.

Which versions use a word other than "punishment" for the word "kolasis"? The 15 versions I have all translate the word "punishment". Would it be ONE version, the New World Translation?