Hell Fire

[OzSpen]

So, Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that the body and soul can be destroyed in hell.
In Ezekiel 18:4 the Bible says that the soul who sins shall die.
The Bible says in Psalm 37:20 that the wicked shall perish, and Psalm 37:10 says that the wicked shall be no more.
Psalm 37:38 says that all sinners will be destroyed.

Tim,

Death does not mean extinction. There is more to death than ‘When I die I rot’ (Bertrand Russell's statement). Evangelical theologian, Wayne Grudem’s statement is a sound basic understanding of what happens when the last breath ceases, ‘Death is the temporary cessation of bodily life and a separation of the soul from the body’ (1994:816).

Another evangelical theologian, Millard Erickson, put is this way, ‘Life and death, according to Scripture, are not to be thought of as existence and nonexistence, but as two different states of existence. Death is simply a transition to a different mode of existence; it is not as some tend to think, extinction’ (1985:1169).

We learn from the Scriptures that there are three dimension to death. These are:

• Physical death. This is the separation of the soul from the body and this is the penalty of sin (see Gen. 2:17; 3:19; Num 16:29; 27:3; John 8:44; Rom 5:12, 14, 16, 17; 1 Peter 4:6).
• Spiritual death. This is the separation of the soul from God which is a penalty from the fall into sin in the Garden of Eden (see Gen 2:17; Rom 5:21; Eph 2:1, 5; Luke 15:32; John 5:24; 8:51).
• Eternal death (the second death). This is the completion of spiritual death, the eternal separation of the soul from God which is accompanied by eternal punishment (see Matt 10:28; 25:41; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 10:31; Rev 14:11). [this outline from Henry Thiessen 1949:271-272]

The story (parable) in Luke 16:19-31 (ESV) about the rich man and Lazarus gives us an indication of what happens at death and it is not annihilation or extinction:

• Clearly death is not the end of existence as….
• Lazarus, the poor man, was by Abraham’s side in life after death;
• The rich man died and went to Hades, being in torment in life after death;
• Both men were experiencing conscious existence after death; they had not been annihilated.

This evidence demonstrates that your statement that 'body and soul can be destroyed in hell' is not consistent with the evidence I have provided.

References
Erickson, M 1985. Christian theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House.

Grudem, W 1994. Systematic theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press / Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

 

[OzSpen]

I dunno. The OT Jews knew of no such thing as a Hell, yet they came to the river every year to get baptized, and to send that poor ol' ram somewhere, carrying their sins. Somehow, they knew they had done wrong... even if it was only from checking a list of do's and don'ts.

Willie,

That's because it was not called Hell. It was called Sheol. The Jews of the OT most certainly knew of life after death. The OT clearly teaches that there is a life after death for believer and non-believer.

It represents all [people] as going down to Sheol (the Hades of the New Testament). The wicked, of course, go there (Ps. 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isa. 5:14). Korah, Dathan, and Abiram are said to have gone down alive into Sheol (Num. 16:33). But the righteous also go there (Job 14:13; 17:16; Ps. 6:5; 16:10; 88:3). Jacob looked forward to going to his son Joseph in Sheol (Gen.37:35; cf. 42:38; 44:29). Hezekiah looked upon death as an entering `the gates of Sheol' (Isa. 38:10). The idea of going into Sheol is probably also present in the oft-recurring phrase, `he was gathered to his people'(Gen. 25:8, 17; 35:29; 49:33; Num. 20:24; 27:13; Deut. 32:50; Judg. 2:10).

Keil and Delitzsch in their extensive commentary on the entire OT, based on the Hebrew, say concerning this word: 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death; it is an infinitive form [from sha-al], to demand, the demanding, applied to the place which inexorably summons all men into its shade' (cf. Prov 30:15-16; Isa 5:14; Heb 2:5) [Keil & Delitzsch n.d.:I.338] (in Thiessen 1949:488).
​

Therefore, in the OT, a human being, whether believer or non-believer, does not cease to exist at death. She or she is not annihilated, but his/her soul descends to Sheol. I am grateful that with progressive revelation, we have more information of what happens at death for all people in the NT and it is not extinction.

Oz

References
Keil, C F & Delitzsch, F n d. Commentary on the Old Testament: The Pentateuch, vol 1. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan:Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

​

 

[OzSpen]

A VERY interesting question. Wouldn't we, as Christians, want less than eternal, agonizing torment for others? I mean it! Will you stand and say that you want others to be subjected to the most horrible thing you can think of? Frankly, that's a mindset I find myself questioning.

Willie,

You are thinking in human terminology. We don't know exactly what the nature of that torment will be from God's perspective. I urge you not to put human meaning onto what God states. Since He states it will be torment for the unbeliever, that's what it will be and our feelings about it do not define its nature.

This we know from the NT and the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that this unbeliever, the rich man, was experiencing God's kind of torment and his desire was for God [Father Abraham] to relieve this anguish, but that was not possible. In life after death he wanted someone to go to warn his five brothers about what happens after death for unbelievers.

It is too easy for us to use emotive language such as 'Wouldn't we, as Christians, want less than eternal, agonizing torment for others? I mean it'. Don't you understand the seriousness of what happens at death for believers and unbelievers is determined by God Himself. Our desires and wishes have no impact. God is absolutely fair/just. There is no partiality with him.

Our job is to tell the good news of salvation through Christ to give people the opportunity to respond to salvation and thus avoid the torment of Hades and then Gehenna.

Oz

 

[TimothyW]

Tim,

Death does not mean extinction. There is more to death than ‘When I die I rot’ (Bertrand Russell's statement). Evangelical theologian, Wayne Grudem’s statement is a sound basic understanding of what happens when the last breath ceases, ‘Death is the temporary cessation of bodily life and a separation of the soul from the body’ (1994:816).

Another evangelical theologian, Millard Erickson, put is this way, ‘Life and death, according to Scripture, are not to be thought of as existence and nonexistence, but as two different states of existence. Death is simply a transition to a different mode of existence; it is not as some tend to think, extinction’ (1985:1169).

We learn from the Scriptures that there are three dimension to death. These are:

• Physical death. This is the separation of the soul from the body and this is the penalty of sin (see Gen. 2:17; 3:19; Num 16:29; 27:3; John 8:44; Rom 5:12, 14, 16, 17; 1 Peter 4:6).
• Spiritual death. This is the separation of the soul from God which is a penalty from the fall into sin in the Garden of Eden (see Gen 2:17; Rom 5:21; Eph 2:1, 5; Luke 15:32; John 5:24; 8:51).
• Eternal death (the second death). This is the completion of spiritual death, the eternal separation of the soul from God which is accompanied by eternal punishment (see Matt 10:28; 25:41; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 10:31; Rev 14:11). [this outline from Henry Thiessen 1949:271-272]

The story (parable) in Luke 16:19-31 (ESV) about the rich man and Lazarus gives us an indication of what happens at death and it is not annihilation or extinction:

• Clearly death is not the end of existence as….
• Lazarus, the poor man, was by Abraham’s side in life after death;
• The rich man died and went to Hades, being in torment in life after death;
• Both men were experiencing conscious existence after death; they had not been annihilated.

This evidence demonstrates that your statement that 'body and soul can be destroyed in hell' is not consistent with the evidence I have provided.

References
Erickson, M 1985. Christian theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House.

Grudem, W 1994. Systematic theology: An introduction to biblical doctrine. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press / Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House.

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Jesus said "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell." I believe him rather than people who say that death isn't really death. The Bible doesn't say that death isn't death.

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus said "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell." I believe him rather than people who say that death isn't really death. The Bible doesn't say that death isn't death.

Tim,

Why don't you reply to the evidence I provided? Instead, you have given me a red herring fallacy by going in the direction you want to go, but without dealing with my evidence.

I gave biblical evidence to demonstrate that death is death and it leads to life after death - not extinction. I stuck with the biblical exposition but you have ignored what I wrote. We can't have a reasonable conversation when you do this.

 

[TimothyW]

Tim,

Why don't you reply to the evidence I provided? Instead, you have given me a red herring fallacy by going in the direction you want to go, but without dealing with my evidence.

I gave biblical evidence to demonstrate that death is death and it leads to life after death - not extinction. I stuck with the biblical exposition but you have ignored what I wrote. We can't have a reasonable conversation when you do this.

I'm sorry but you didn't provide evidence, just claims. The parable of the rich man doesn't prove that dead people are Alive in hell. The Bible doesn't support the claims made by the people you quoted.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm sorry but you didn't provide evidence, just claims. The parable of the rich man doesn't prove that dead people are Alive in hell. The Bible doesn't support the claims made by the people you quoted.

Tim,

With respect, at #61 I provided evidence - this evidence - and you did not respond to it:

We learn from the Scriptures that there are three dimension to death. These are:

• Physical death. This is the separation of the soul from the body and this is the penalty of sin (see Gen. 2:17; 3:19; Num 16:29; 27:3; John 8:44; Rom 5:12, 14, 16, 17; 1 Peter 4:6).
• Spiritual death. This is the separation of the soul from God which is a penalty from the fall into sin in the Garden of Eden (see Gen 2:17; Rom 5:21; Eph 2:1, 5; Luke 15:32; John 5:24; 8:51).
• Eternal death (the second death). This is the completion of spiritual death, the eternal separation of the soul from God which is accompanied by eternal punishment (see Matt 10:28; 25:41; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 10:31; Rev 14:11). [this outline from Henry Thiessen 1949:271-272]

The story (parable) in Luke 16:19-31 (ESV) about the rich man and Lazarus gives us an indication of what happens at death and it is not annihilation or extinction:

• Clearly death is not the end of existence as….
• Lazarus, the poor man, was by Abraham’s side in life after death;
• The rich man died and went to Hades, being in torment in life after death;
• Both men were experiencing conscious existence after death; they had not been annihilated.

+++++++
The Bible supports the claims of the Scriptures I presented. You stated, 'The parable of the rich man doesn't prove that dead people are Alive in hell'. You are correct. The parable in Luke 16 of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16:19-31) does NOT support the view that dead people are alive in hell. But IT DOES SUPPORT the view that dead people are alive in Hades (for the unbeliever) and alive in Abraham's bosom for the believer: 'The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades being in torment, he lifted up his eyes ... and called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me" (Lk 16:22-23 ESV ).

So the rich man died and was alive in Hades and in torment. That's Bible! The whole point of this story in Luke 16 was to emphasise conscious existence in Hades (for unbelievers) and in Abraham's bosom (for believers) when they die physically.

And the biblical evidence I presented at #61 confirms this view. It is your position that lacks biblical support.

Oz​

 

[jeff77]

I'm sorry but you didn't provide evidence, just claims. The parable of the rich man doesn't prove that dead people are Alive in hell. The Bible doesn't support the claims made by the people you quoted.

can you explain why Jesus would use an example of conscious existence after death if it were not true? I know its about the end of the priesthood and wealth not equating to righteousness, but surely this example of Lazarus and the richman was an important example of what happens after death.

 

[Willie T]

Oz,
You seem to be vocalizing from a soapbox for no reason.
No one is denying afterlife.
No one is denying judgment.
No one is denying an undesirable state (torment)

All that is being argued is the idea of the destiny of a literal expanse of eternal flaming territory for unbelievers, being derived from Biblical accounts.

I mean, do you REALLY look forward to walking on hard, unyielding streets made out of metal? Of course not. What a horrible thought. God didn't even create one single street for us... He gave us soft, luscious grass to walk upon.
And "walls" and "gates" in Heaven? Why? We don't even have them here on Earth, except to satisfy our rather ungodly desire to exclude other people from our lives.

 

[TimothyW]

Tim,

• Physical death. This is the separation of the soul from the body and this is the penalty of sin (see Gen. 2:17; 3:19; Num 16:29; 27:3; John 8:44; Rom 5:12, 14, 16, 17; 1 Peter 4:6).
• Spiritual death. This is the separation of the soul from God which is a penalty from the fall into sin in the Garden of Eden (see Gen 2:17; Rom 5:21; Eph 2:1, 5; Luke 15:32; John 5:24; 8:51).
• Eternal death (the second death). This is the completion of spiritual death, the eternal separation of the soul from God which is accompanied by eternal punishment (see Matt 10:28; 25:41; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 10:31; Rev 14:11). [this outline from Henry Thiessen 1949:271-272]

Oz​

Let me look at the verses you say prove that there are three different kinds of death, okay?
Physical death:
Genesis 2:17
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
I agree that this is talking about death. It doesn't say that it is one kind of a death or a different kind of death.

Genesis 3:19
"By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
This describes the death of Adam, God said Adam would die in Genesis 2:17, so this too is death. Again it doesn't say that this is one kind of death out of three different kinds, but I don't believe in three kinds of death, so there is no problem.

Numbers 16:29
If these men die as all men die, or if they are visited by the fate of all mankind, then the LORD has not sent me.
Death, all men die. We agree on that.
The next verse is interesting, since some people use it to "prove" that people are alive in hell.
"But if the LORD creates something new, and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into Sheol, then you shall know that these men have despised the LORD.”
But that argument always fails since Numbers 16:33 says that those who were swallowed up actually perished.

Numbers 27:3
“Our father died in the wilderness. He was not among the company of those who gathered themselves together against the LORD in the company of Korah, but died for his own sin. And he had no sons."
This is saying that the father died because of sin. That is also what I have been saying. "For the wages of sin is death", and "if you eat of the fruit you will surely die".

John 8:44
"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
This must be a typo, as it has nothing to do with our discussion. Are you saying the devil murders people and their death is a natural death?

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
This is stating the origin of death, it came into the world because of sin. This isn't saying there are three kinds of death that all came into the world through sin, with three different results of death.

Romans 5:14
Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
I still don't see any evidence for 3 kinds of death...

Romans 5:16
And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
This proves what I am saying, that the trespass brought the condemnation, and the condemnation is death. And Christ's gift brings eternal life and an end to death. I don't know how you think it proves your point either that the condemnation is eternal conscious torment in hell or that there are 3 different kinds of death.

Romans 5:17
For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
I see more evidence for my view that death reigned because of sin, and no evidence that sin causes eternal life in hell or that there are 3 kinds of death.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.
This verse shows that dead people really are dead, even though they will live again in the spirit. This doesn't show that dead people are alive in hell or that there are three different kinds of death.

I'll stop this here so the post doesn't get too long and I will continue with the next post.

 

[jeff77]

Oz,
You seem to be vocalizing from a soapbox for no reason.
No one is denying afterlife.
No one is denying judgment.
No one is denying an undesirable state (torment)

All that is being argued is the idea of the destiny of a literal expanse of eternal flaming territory for unbelievers, being derived from Biblical accounts.

I mean, do you REALLY look forward to walking on hard, unyielding streets made out of metal? Of course not. What a horrible thought. God didn't even create one single street for us... He gave us soft, luscious grass to walk upon.
And "walls" and "gates" in Heaven? Why? We don't even have them here on Earth, except to satisfy our rather ungodly desire to exclude other people from our lives.

I agree with you Willie. The Bible uses a lot of imagery and we know that God is just. I don't think the fire is a physical burning type that we have here on earth, but maybe whatever it is, it could be a description of how severe hell is.

 

[TimothyW]

Tim,

We learn from the Scriptures that there are three dimension to death. These are:

• Physical death. This is the separation of the soul from the body and this is the penalty of sin (see Gen. 2:17; 3:19; Num 16:29; 27:3; John 8:44; Rom 5:12, 14, 16, 17; 1 Peter 4:6).
• Spiritual death. This is the separation of the soul from God which is a penalty from the fall into sin in the Garden of Eden (see Gen 2:17; Rom 5:21; Eph 2:1, 5; Luke 15:32; John 5:24; 8:51).
• Eternal death (the second death). This is the completion of spiritual death, the eternal separation of the soul from God which is accompanied by eternal punishment (see Matt 10:28; 25:41; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 10:31; Rev 14:11). [this outline from Henry Thiessen 1949:271-272]

I'm looking for evidence that there are 3 different kinds of death, three dimensions. In my last post, I looked at Physical Death, and I found death. It was not distinguished from any other kind of death.
In this post I will examine your evidence that there is another kind of death that the Bible calls "Spiritual Death".
Genesis 2:17
"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
It's interesting that you used Gen 2:17 as evidence both of physical death AND of "spiritual" death. The verse doesn't say "physical death" or "spiritual death". It doesn't distinguish between the two. This verse doesn't say that there is something called a spiritual death. I don't see that this "proof" stands up as evidence that there are three dimensions to death.

Romans 5:21
so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
This doesn't say that this is spiritual death, natural death, or any other particular kind of death. It says that sin reigned in death, which is also what I believe, and now Jesus reigns and gives us the gift of eternal life instead of death. This "proof" doesn't stand up as evidence that there are 3 dimensions to death.

Ephesians 2:1
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Are you saying that the Christians in Ephesus were dead? This is symbolic language, since if they had not repented, they would be dead forever.
This doesn't prove that there is something that the Bible calls "spiritual death" or that there are 3 dimensions to death.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
This doesn't say spiritually dead or physically dead or eternally dead. The wages of sin is death. Those without Christ will die because of their sins. They are dead in their trespasses. This doesn't say or prove that there are 3 dimensions to death or that there is even a thing that the Bible calls "spiritual death".

Luke 15:32
It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.
This is a real stretch. The brother never was dead, not physically, spiritually, or eternally. The brother was alive the entire time. This certainly does nothing to prove that there is a thing called "spiritual death" or that there are 3 kinds of death.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
This is exactly what I believe. And it doesn't say spiritual death, and it doesn't prove that there are 3 dimensions to death. In fact, I don't know how you can read Jesus's words here and believe that the person who hears his words doesn't pass from death to life as Jesus says but passes from life in hell being tormented to life in heaven with no torment.
At any rate, aside from proving Conditional Immortality, this verse does nothing to prove ECT, that there is a thing called spiritual death or that there are 3 different kinds of death.

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.
This is also what I believe, it proves CI, and disproves ECT. Only those who keep His words will never see death, the others will.
Aside from proving CI, this does nothing to prove that there is something called a spiritual death or that there are 3 different kinds of death.

I'll cut this post off here and continue on the next.
You haven't shown any proof that there are 3 kinds of death mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Willie T]

I agree with you Willie. The Bible uses a lot of imagery and we know that God is just. I don't think the fire is a physical burning type that we have here on earth, but maybe whatever it is, it could be a description of how severe hell is.

My point, exactly. All of us often go off on pretty wild tangents, claiming we KNOW something as fact because we got a certain impression from a segment of scripture. You only have to look at our collective beliefs in what Jesus looked like, to see that an entire system of understanding can be based upon total fallacy. We don't really have one single word telling us what Jesus looked like, yet we have multiple thousands of paintings.... all forming our thoughts about something no one knows.

It's no different for what the after life and judgment might be. I mean, if a person requires being scared and unsure about their standing with God to create a "relationship"... go for it. But, as far as others are concerned, PLEASE let us ONLY do what Jesus told us to do, and simply preach about Him and our subsequent hope.

Jesus never tried to scare people..... why do we?

 

[TimothyW]

Tim,

With respect, at #61 I provided evidence - this evidence - and you did not respond to it:

We learn from the Scriptures that there are three dimension to death. These are:

• Physical death. This is the separation of the soul from the body and this is the penalty of sin (see Gen. 2:17; 3:19; Num 16:29; 27:3; John 8:44; Rom 5:12, 14, 16, 17; 1 Peter 4:6).
• Spiritual death. This is the separation of the soul from God which is a penalty from the fall into sin in the Garden of Eden (see Gen 2:17; Rom 5:21; Eph 2:1, 5; Luke 15:32; John 5:24; 8:51).
• Eternal death (the second death). This is the completion of spiritual death, the eternal separation of the soul from God which is accompanied by eternal punishment (see Matt 10:28; 25:41; 2 Thess 1:9; Heb 10:31; Rev 14:11). [this outline from Henry Thiessen 1949:271-272]

Oz​

In my last 2 posts I looked for the evidence that there are 3 different kinds of death and I didn't find any evidence in your scripture references that the Bible says there is.
There was no mention of a spiritual death, or any mention of three dimensions of death.
Now I will look at your evidence that there is something called Eternal Death that is different from Physical Death or so called Spiritual Death.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
According to this, the body and soul can be destroyed in hell. This is solid proof that the body and soul can be destroyed in hell, and this can't be done by people.
But this does nothing to prove that there are 3 different kinds of death. When a person dies, God can and will resurrect them. But the Bible says that there is no resurrection from the second death. When a person dies after resurrection and judgment, they remain dead forever.

Aside from proving that the Body and Soul of unbelievers will be destroyed in Gehenna, this does nothing to prove that there are 3 kinds of death.

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Yes, being put into eternal fire will certainly kill a person. But this does nothing to prove that there are 3 kinds of death.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
This verse does nothing to prove that there are 3 kinds of death, but it definitely proves that the punishment is destruction just like I have been telling you.

Hebrew 10:31
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Is this verse a typo? Did you mean some other verse? This verse does nothing to prove that there are 3 kinds of death, but it definitely proves that It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. And here is why it is a fearful thing: Hebrews 10:39 "But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls." Those who shrink back are destroyed. Their souls are not preserved. Their bodies and souls are destroyed in Gehenna just as Jesus said.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
Finally, in the symbolic book of Revelation, which no two Christians have ever agreed upon the meaning of it, you show smoke of torment. The smoke goes up forever when the person has been destroyed. This verse does nothing to prove that there are 3 kinds of death.

The Bible simply does not say that there are three different kinds of death. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death and the gift of God is eternal life. There is the kind of death that is not life, and that is death. And there is the kind of life that is not death, and that is life.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

Willie,

That's because it was not called Hell. It was called Sheol. The Jews of the OT most certainly knew of life after death. The OT clearly teaches that there is a life after death for believer and non-believer.

It represents all [people] as going down to Sheol (the Hades of the New Testament). The wicked, of course, go there (Ps. 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isa. 5:14). Korah, Dathan, and Abiram are said to have gone down alive into Sheol (Num. 16:33). But the righteous also go there (Job 14:13; 17:16; Ps. 6:5; 16:10; 88:3). Jacob looked forward to going to his son Joseph in Sheol (Gen.37:35; cf. 42:38; 44:29). Hezekiah looked upon death as an entering `the gates of Sheol' (Isa. 38:10). The idea of going into Sheol is probably also present in the oft-recurring phrase, `he was gathered to his people'(Gen. 25:8, 17; 35:29; 49:33; Num. 20:24; 27:13; Deut. 32:50; Judg. 2:10).

Keil and Delitzsch in their extensive commentary on the entire OT, based on the Hebrew, say concerning this word: 'Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death; it is an infinitive form [from sha-al], to demand, the demanding, applied to the place which inexorably summons all men into its shade' (cf. Prov 30:15-16; Isa 5:14; Heb 2:5) [Keil & Delitzsch n.d.:I.338] (in Thiessen 1949:488).
​

Therefore, in the OT, a human being, whether believer or non-believer, does not cease to exist at death. She or she is not annihilated, but his/her soul descends to Sheol. I am grateful that with progressive revelation, we have more information of what happens at death for all people in the NT and it is not extinction.

Oz

References
Keil, C F & Delitzsch, F n d. Commentary on the Old Testament: The Pentateuch, vol 1. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

Thiessen, H C 1949. Introductory lectures in systematic theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan:Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

​

I'm interested in hearing more about that, I read that somewhere. That there is an OT division of hell, one half torment and the other paradise.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

My point, exactly. All of us often go off on pretty wild tangents, claiming we KNOW something as fact because we got a certain impression from a segment of scripture. You only have to look at our collective beliefs in what Jesus looked like, to see that an entire system of understanding can be based upon total fallacy. We don't really have one single word telling us what Jesus looked like, yet we have multiple thousands of paintings.... all forming our thoughts about something no one knows.

It's no different for what the after life and judgment might be. I mean, if a person requires being scared and unsure about their standing with God to create a "relationship"... go for it. But, as far as others are concerned, PLEASE let us ONLY do what Jesus told us to do, and simply preach about Him and our subsequent hope.

Jesus never tried to scare people..... why do we?

Exactly, did Jesus really have long hair?