Hell

[lastwords]

WHO are these associating partners with God? I thought we were sons of God not partners.

First - we are sons of Adams - not God...God isnt a person that has sons He is Higher than that.

Second, those who state that God has a son then that is associating partners with God. Since God does not have any partners (children/helpers/parents etc).

"He begets not, nor was He begotten."

"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

A basic point really....... :angel:

"Then she pointed to him. They said: 'How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?'"
"He (Jesus) said: 'Verily I am a slave of Allah(God), He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet."

Jesus (pbuh) said, " ...I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." John 20:17

Jesus (pbuh) said," Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Quran 5:116

Jesus was a Prophet :

me a Prophet

Quran.

"But Jesus said to them,"Only in his home town and in his own house is a Prophet..."

Matthew 13:57

Jesus was a slave of God:

"Here is my servant (Jesus) whom I have chosen."

Matthew 12:18

"I am a slave of Allah(God)"

Quran.

 

[Scott]

Free, 2 Peter is a good point. I do not know if the punishment for humans is the same as that for celestial beings but when I think of Hell, I'm thinking of the final place of eternal torment. The end of that verse (2 Peter 2:5) says delivered them in chains of darkness to be reserved unto judgement. If there are lesser Hells that exist even now, I don't have any opinion on that... there may very well be. But the final Hell I do believe is yet to come.

On a side note, have you ever read the "Divine Comedy" by Dante?

 

[Charlotte]

Hi All,

Here is a web page about hell. The title of the article is, "The Biblical Teaching of Hell"
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030601.htm

Charlotte

 

[Free]

DkC,

Is it possible that the lake of fire is hell?

No, I have not read "Divine Comedy."

Charlotte,

Here is an article about hell that goes against your article, which I don't believe to be biblical:
http://www.christiancourier.com/questions/eternalSecondDeathQuestion.htm

 

[Scott]

Does 2 Peter 2:4 say anything about a lake of fire?

 

[Free]

No, nothing about that.

Is it possible that there are (or will be) two hells - one where fallen angels are now, and the other the final place of eternal torment? Doesn't seem to likely. I agree that the lake of fire would seem to be the eternal hell Jesus was refering to as it is called the "second death" in Rev., but then what of the hell in 2 Pet. (which only mentions darkness)?

Hades is the abode of the dead, is it not?

 

[WyldCyde]

If REVELATION is interpreted literally then this article offers a possible physical location of LAKE OF FIRE:
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d810201.htm

It never ceases to amaze me how many christians almost take pleasure in the thought of hell.
Just spend one minute thinking about a lost loved one burning eternally. Imagine their flesh roasting, their screams of pain & anguish. Imagine their hopelessness & despair. Think back on your entire liftime and try to imagine that the whole time was spent in an oven at 1000degrees.
Meditate on that and perhaps you'll get even a trickle of an idea of how terrible the concept of eternal torment is.
And if you believe it then please dont waste time on this forum - run to the streets and warn everyone.


WyldCyde

 

[Henry]

wyldcyde

I can not believe that you accuse christians of taking pleasure in hell, that is just a terrible thing to say.

To teach the truth of hell as the bible teaches, is not to take pleasure in it.

In addition all that flesh burning stuff and what ever is not what the bible teaches, that is cultural additions to what the bible teaches.

The bible merely says it will be a place of outer darkeness, of torment and gnashing of teeth. this could very well be the result of knowing that you blew it, it would a torment in and of itself to know that you regused Gods invitation and are now separated for all eternity.

I would also like to say, that YEs the idea of hell is terrible, but that does not mean we dismiss it, the bible teaches it.

And going to the the streets, LOL well there are those who do that, they are mocked and ridicualed just like Jesus himself was.

Now first you have to know what the bible teaches, and then let GOD do his work, with you as a tool when needed, he saves he reveles he opens hearts not you, not I.

 

[WyldCyde]

Henry. If what I said about people taking pleasure in thought of hell, doesn't apply to you then just ignore it.
Of course I dont believe that all christians like the idea of hell or somehow relish the thought of people burning forever.
Some unfortunately do like the idea of those that have persecuted & rejected them, getting 'what they deserve'.
They desire God to vindicate them and even send 'those that contradict' into the unquenchable flames.
You would know that church history reveals that MANY christians have labelled their brethren as heretics on the way to hell.
Calvin, Spurgen, Luther, J Edwards etc etc preached about the fires of hell and what people can expect their.
I have sat under preaching & teaching where people have attempted to describe the agony of hell in order to persuade people to repent.

Totally agreed that we must look to the scripture even if it teaches things we dont like necessarily. I dont like much of the bloodshed in the OT but God was part of it and I have to accept that and seek his heart & mind so I can see the bigger picture.

I have not a single bit of doubt that many christians proclaim eternal torment in hell but dont even bother to warn the majority of people they meet.

I am not claiming superiority, I have kept quiet far too many times. On the other hand I dont believe that hell is eternal... of course judgment is still a reality and I need to warn men.

, he saves he reveles he opens hearts not you, not I.

Agreed but we are used of God in people's salvation. God doesn't save people in a vacuum, he uses men. Most of us can probably recall one or more people that were instrumental in our salvation.

Romans10
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

be blessed all!!

WyldCyde

 

[Jack Lewis]

. . . Instead, they conclude that hell is just seperation from god. They claim that hell is a monument to gods respect of human free will, and that those who are in hell really never wanted to be close to god and are given that in the end. So instead of burning or lakes of fire or pain there is just seperation from god and other stuff that comes with it - love, happiness, joy, hope. Anyway....what does anyone think about this? Is hell a literal lake of fire where we burn, or is it a place of utter aloneness and sorrow? I am curious partly because, as an agnostic, seperation doesn't seem like a punishment (and Strobel said that too...that it is just what we non-believers want). Fire and pain sounds much worse. What is it? Please feel free to pm or email if you want more from the book or direct quotes, etc, or just more personal info...

We have a tremendous ability to avoid the obvious, to hide from truth and reality, here in our earthly bodies. Stripped of that basket to hide over our heads, eternal separation from God could conceivably be worse than being burned alive. Forever being away from the One you were created to love, knowing that it was your own decision that placed you apart from Him, feeling that heart pain deeper and stronger than you ever imagined possible, day in and day out forever and ever . . . perhaps real fire would pale in comparison.

 

[Jack Lewis]

I don't understand how everyone has a chance. What if you were born skeptical, questioning, and it was hard for you to trust something which had no proof or explaination, or evidence? Wouldn't you have a much harder time accepting a religion and a good you never saw then someone who easily believed whatever they were told or accepted god because someone totld them to? I don't see disbelievers as being given the same chance as someone who easily believes without question what they are told in church. I went to private school, to church, etc, but never took the message the way many of my classmates did. Why is it harder for me then them?

In the end it will be God's judegment, and I don't see Him as one who would treat people unfairly. We all have sinned against God. So hell is justice -- heaven is mercy. When you hold on to the concept that good is bad unless it happens to everyone, you hold eternity hostage to whichever brat wants to pout and claim to be having a bad time. Mercy is never unfair, even when given to only a few.

I do think the idea of seperation from god is much more humane then burning and suffering physical pain for the 'sin' of not being certain of god or convinced of amazing miracles, etc. I can't see how a loving god wouldn't do everything to answer the skeptics questions. If someone like myself requires visual proof or something why can god not provide that, knowing that if we could be sure of him we would accept him?

The spirit is more real than the flesh. Why would eternal burning of the spirit separated from God, be more 'humane' (I assume you mean less painful) than eternal buring of the flesh? Imagine the worst heart break you ever experienced, multiplied a thousand fold and lasting forever.

There were those who saw Jesus rise from the dead, and still refused to believe. Some people simply will always be skeptical. There comes a point when skepticism ceases to be honest questioning and becomes sinful rebellion.

 

[Jack Lewis]

Does anyone mind if I take this forum in a weird direction?

Well, first of all...does everyone accept dualism as a fact? Think of Jesus' resurrection before you answer. His body was never at anypoint separated from his soul. If you are a dualist, this discussion won't be very interesting or meaningful to you...sorry.

I'm also being very simplistic here...but this make for a good discussion.

I guess, as people gather from the Bible, that Hell is a place where we get to suffer forever and ever after we die. If there is no dualism...then our bodies are necessary no matter where we end up in the afterlife (Jesus made a considerable point when he insisted that his disciples touch his physical, resurrected body).

I don't think you grasp what 'Dualism' actually means. Dualism teaches that God and Satan, good and bad, heaven and hell are nothing more than equal compliments of each other. It teaches that bad is as morally sound as good in that they are but mirrors of each other. The problem with real Dualism should be obvious. We all recognize evil as more than just a mirror of good. We all recognize that those that embrace evil aren't morally equal to the rest of us. It simply doesn't work in reality.

 

[Bick]

Of course God is UNFAIR ! Paul tells us in Rom. 3, that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is none that doeth good, no not one. There is none that seeketh after God.

And in Rom.5:All in Adam are dying, all are sinners. LOST ! And all need a Saviour. All need mercy.

Yet in Rom.9: We read that concerning Esau and Jacob, God chose to love Jacob, the younger, and hate Esau, before they were ever born. So God has mercy on whom he chooses.

IS THIS FAIR?

Bick

 

[Lyric's Dad]

In recent times and in my studies I have been coming to the place where I am leaning toward those who are lost being utterly destroyed in the lake of fire. I do believe that the devil and his minions and the anti-Christ and false prophet will be there eternally but I believe that those who die without Jesus will be destroyed.

 

[SputnikBoy]

In recent times and in my studies I have been coming to the place where I am leaning toward those who are lost being utterly destroyed in the lake of fire. I do believe that the devil and his minions and the anti-Christ and false prophet will be there eternally but I believe that those who die without Jesus will be destroyed.

Sputnik: Amen to the annihilation part of your post, LD, but I'm not too sure about literal 'eternal punishment' for Satan and company. While the thoughts, intentions, and actions of God are way beyond our comprehension, I can't reason out for myself anyway what is to be gained by punishing ANY being for eternity.

The way I see it, unless the intention of punishment is used for one's ultimate good - i.e. that, while incarcerated, one sees the error of their ways and they choose to do something about it - then surely punishment for any other reason is purely an act of vindictiveness ...??

That isn't carved into stone, by the way, it's just a thought.

 

[Free]

I don't think you grasp what 'Dualism' actually means. Dualism teaches that God and Satan, good and bad, heaven and hell are nothing more than equal compliments of each other. It teaches that bad is as morally sound as good in that they are but mirrors of each other. The problem with real Dualism should be obvious. We all recognize evil as more than just a mirror of good. We all recognize that those that embrace evil aren't morally equal to the rest of us. It simply doesn't work in reality.

Philosophically speaking, dualism is also the belief that man has an immaterial soul and a material body. Dualism is essentially anything where two opposites are pitted against each other. You are talking about Manichaeism dualism whereas Totentanz is discussing Cartesian dualism.

 

[Vic C.]

In recent times and in my studies I have been coming to the place where I am leaning toward those who are lost being utterly destroyed in the lake of fire. I do believe that the devil and his minions and the anti-Christ and false prophet will be there eternally but I believe that those who die without Jesus will be destroyed.

I was there when I was first introduded to this doctrine by the WCG (post Armstrong). I abandoned it for several years, then have come to that conclusion once I really delved into my Bible and word studies.

Rev. 20:10 And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.
LITV

Sputnik, if we can agree to what ages of the ages actually means, we can then determine if Satan, false prophet, etc. will be there for eternity. :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

You ask: "Is hell a literal lake of fire where we burn, or is it a place of utter aloneness and sorrow? I am curious partly because, as an agnostic, seperation doesn't seem like a punishment (and Strobel said that too...that it is just what we non-believers want). Fire and pain sounds much worse. What is it? Please feel free to pm or email if you want more from the book or direct quotes, etc, or just more personal info..."


Let me just use street talk ok? Hell is the final ending of earth & sin, as we know it. (the earth is to be recreated) Both are to be Eternally GONE! See Obadiah 1:15-16 for what hell will accomplish. ".. they shall be as though they had not been.'' In Nahum 1:9 we see that this is Gospilized! (God's Eternal Word!) Meaning: ".. (Sin) affliction will not arise a second time."

And Christ tells us who the most guilty that will be gone, are! See Luke 12:47-48. And these verses tell us that Christ believed in hell, huh? And that some will be beaten (suffer) longer because of the opportunities that they botched! (again, which ones)

Most of today's church do not understand Record Books & what is meant by this subject. It needs several doctrines being understood! So, ask yourself the real question, who is it that Christ states that will not only not be saved, but who will even suffer the longest in hell??? :

All of these lost, Paul tells us will be judged during the 1000 years of desolate earth, at Christ's first advent. See 1 Corinthians 6:2-3. At the end of the 1000 years the wicked will have their resurrection and then it is that 'hell' fire will purify the earth & New Jerusalem will set upon the recreated earth.

Now: Luke 12 brings us to this reason in your question's setting! It is; How could a real Born Again Christian still be teaching this doctrine of God burning anyone in hell eternally! Or, to be in yoked membership with such ones??? And supporting it by being PARTAKER'S of such with God's tithes & offerings? Read Revelation 18:4

Hope that this helps?
---John

 

[jess321]

my friend says pergatory is having to sit in a room with out an X-box. :smt082

but seriously he is agood guy and that is only a joke.

 

[John the Baptist]

my friend says pergatory is having to sit in a room with out an X-box. :smt082

but seriously he is agood guy and that is only a joke.

********
Hi Jess,
we have a tendency to add the two together, huh? (bad doctrine=bad guy) Not you, I hope, seeing that you are an moderator. Do you know what I mean though?

There are lots of folk who died believing this stuff, who will be in the Kingdom of God. Then, there are some who might still be in ignorance, who might die & also be saved. These folks are 'good' guys.

With that being said: How many might one think perhaps that are lost because of this satanic doctrine being taught by folk's knowing that this is not truth??? There is as a night & day difference here, 'me' believes. And on top of that, we hear that they are Born Again??

Hay, in other words, when we knock bad doctrine, in most cases we are not talking of ones [individual] heart content!

---John