Hell

[Free]

Free,

re: “...the absolute holiness of God.”


Why does the absolute holiness of the supreme being require him to torture a person for eternity because during the person’s fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements and/or didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being? Why does the unsaved person absolutely HAVE to be given eternal life at the judgment? Who does that benefit?

I don't think that God "torturing someone for eternity" is a biblical position. That we have a relatively few years of life, when compared with eternity, is not a strong argument against an eternal hell. We have been given the life we have and it is during this time we either choose life with Christ or continue in unbelief and rebellion, the consequences of which are given in Scripture.

Jesus warns of the severity of the consequences of unbelief by punishment in hell. I'm curious, how is non-existence something to be so severely warned against? Non-existence isn't punishment, it's just non-existence.

 

[Pard]

We are no different, nor is any country. When a man commits treason against his country and is willingly letting the enemy into his country to attack his country that mans faces the death penalty, the utmost punishment a man can inflict upon another man.

Same with the Bible. When you sin you are helping the devil by letting him into God's Earthly Kingdom and letting the devil attack God's Earthly Kingdom. Treason is treason. The worst punishment on earth is given to traitors... the worst punishment is given to sinners as well for they are traitors against God's kingdom.

An argument against hell that relies on a loving God does not work and it only shows how little you understand about the Word of God. It is a sign that you should re-approach the Bible with God's Light and be in prayer as you read it.

 

[Bubba]

I do not believe Gehenna spoken by Jesus (11 times) was ever mean't to mean more then a place of judgment to His immediate audience, who were familar with the O.T. prophets who spoke of this valley called Hinnom at their time. By 70 AD many of these who heard His words experience the judgment through the instrument of Rome and were thrown in this very same valley and burned along with debris from the Temple and Jerusalem itself. Maybe this quote will help some to understand what the Jewish mindset was at this time.
Bubba

JEWISH VIEWS OF GEHENNA

Gehenna is the name given by Jews to Hell. Rev. H. N. Adler, a Jewish Rabbi, says: "They do not teach endless retributive suffering. They hold that it is not conceivable that a God of mercy and justice would ordain infinite punishment for finite wrong-doing." Dr. Dentsch declares: "There is not a word in the Talmud that lends any support to that damnable dogma of endless torment." Dr. Dewes in his "Plea for Rational Translation," says that Gehenna is alluded to four or five times in the Mishna, thus: "The judgment of Gehenna is for twelve months;" "Gehenna is a day in which the impious shall be burnt." Bartolocci declares that "the Jews did not believe in a material fire, and thought that such fire as they did believe in would one day be put out." Rabbi Akiba, "the second Moses," said: "The duration of the punishment of the wicked in Gehenna is twelve months." Adyoth 3: 10. some rabbis said Gehenna only lasted from Passover to Pentecost. This was the prevalent conception. (Abridged from Excursus 5, in Canon Farrar's "Eternal Hope." He gives in a note these testimonies to prove that the Jews to whom Jesus spoke, did not regard Gehenna as of endless duration). Asarath Maamaroth, f. 35, 1: "There will hereafter be no Gehenna." Jalkuth Shimoni, f. 46, 1: "Gabriel and Michael will open the eight thousand gates of Gehenna, and let out Israelites and righteous Gentiles." A passage in Othoth, (attributed to R. Akiba) declares that Gabriel and Michael will open the forty thousand gates of Gehenna, and set free the damned, and in Emek Hammelech, f. 138, 4, we read: "The wicked stay in Gehenna till the resurrection, and then the Messiah, passing through it redeems them." See Stephelius' Rabbinical Literature.

(The Bible Hell, J.W. Hanson, D.D., 1888)

 

[coffeeelover]

There is no eternal torture, by a loving God. Either God is evil or there is no Hell. Believe what you wish. I think the choice is obvious.

 

[tig]

For some reason, I am having trouble quoting these responses. So I do it this way for now:


Free said:
Incorrect. Jesus spoke of hell (gehenna) as a real place, a place of punishment to be avoided at all costs.

My response:
Just because I said that the "hell" people go through is spiritual, not physical, doesn't mean that it is not real. In fact it was Jesus who said: John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This hell Jesus baptized people with was just as real as anything that causes torture and pain, except is was spiritual instead of physical. And of course hell is a place of punishment, but what son is he whom the Father chastens not? We are all partakers of God's chastisement, wherefore, we are all sons and daughters, and we all go through hell.

Free said:
Not once, that I can recall, does Jesus ever even imply that hell is something we go through now. It is always about punishment for things done in this life, but occurs after it.

My response:
Read this passage: Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

This is one of the famous hell passages. Notice verse 43, 45, 47, and especially 47, where JC says it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into hellfire.

Remember, we are given new bodies when we enter heaven, perfect, uncorruptable bodies. Well....here you have someone entering into the kingdom of God with only one eye, instead of entering hell whole. Now catch this, it is really simple. If we enter into the kingdom of God now, and do it with only one eye (because we plcuked out the other, then now is when we experience hellfire also, with both eyes (if we so choose not to pluck one of em out).

We are all God's children, we come to earth to die, so that we will value the free gift of eternal life that God has given to us all. Just as the captain of our faith was made perfect through the things that he suffered, so are we. We will indeed drink from the cup that Jesus drank from, and it will be glorious. We all are being taught this lesson of death by the teacher that cannot fail, that teacher is our Dad. And Dad would never let any of his children suffer needlessly or forever.

Free said:
Any arguments against hell by appealing to a "loving God" clearly ignore the utter serious of sin and the absolute holiness of God. I think these are two concepts all but lost in the western Church.[/QUOTE]

My response:
Again, no arguments against hell, but serious arguments against it being an enternal place of torture for people. God is the saviour of all men, just not all men are harvested at the same time. Some now, who believe the goodnews God gave Christ to give to us, some later, at Jesus' second coming, when our flesh dies.

Unfortuneately, the western church has made physical a spiritual concept. Just as a real Jew is not physical, or just as heavenly Jerusalem is not physical, and just because the new covenant is not physical, does not mean they are not real. So hell being spiritual does not mean that it's not real.

You can only physically torture somebody for so long then the body breaks down, but spiritual torture can be endured much longer, and since we are spiritual beings having a physical experience, it seems perfectly rational that the hell Jesus spoke of was spiritual.

 

[Michae1]

Yet another thread gone to hell.

How serendipitous.

 

[Oats]

If there is a hell and you burn for eternity how did you get eternal life ?

Come let us reason together says the LORD.

If only the saints are given immortality as a reward, then it is foolish to say that the wicked are burned in hell
for eternity.

Hell is another fable handed down through the ages.

So I guess Jesus was one of those fable tellers?
No, hell is a real place

Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment, and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire
Mathew 5:21-22

 

[Oats]

There is no eternal torture, by a loving God. Either God is evil or there is no Hell. Believe what you wish. I think the choice is obvious.

On what terms do you base this statement...

If someone wants hell...God gives justly....

Provide verses against hell...please

 

[Free]

There is no eternal torture, by a loving God. Either God is evil or there is no Hell. Believe what you wish. I think the choice is obvious.

False dichotomy.

 

[jasoncran]

On what terms do you base this statement...

If someone wants hell...God gives justly....

Provide verses against hell...please

theres isnt, one has to ignore those verses and call them a literary device even though in the parable of the rich man and lazarus, the afterlife of both is described.

 

[westtexas]

I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is no clear scripture to support that belief.

Let me get your thoughts on this verse to start with. I assume you have no problem agreeing with eternal life, correct?
Kolasin aionion--eternal punishment
zoen aionion--eternal life

Kai apeleusontai outoi eis Kolasin aionion oi de dikaioi eis zoen aionion (Matt 25:46 Interlinear Bible)

How do you justify your view of eternal life and disagree with eternal punishment when the same timeframe (aionion-eternal) and the SAME WORD is used for both in scripture?

Westtexas

 

[Free]

Incorrect. Jesus spoke of hell (gehenna) as a real place, a place of punishment to be avoided at all costs.

Just because I said that the "hell" people go through is spiritual, not physical, doesn't mean that it is not real. In fact it was Jesus who said: John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This hell Jesus baptized people with was just as real as anything that causes torture and pain, except is was spiritual instead of physical. And of course hell is a place of punishment, but what son is he whom the Father chastens not? We are all partakers of God's chastisement, wherefore, we are all sons and daughters, and we all go through hell.

No, this is clearly false. The NT is clear that believers do not go to gehenna, which I believe to be the Lake of Fire. Gehenna is a place where unbelievers and Satan and his angels go when they are judged. It is not something that we go through in this life.

Not once, that I can recall, does Jesus ever even imply that hell is something we go through now. It is always about punishment for things done in this life, but occurs after it.

Read this passage: Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

50Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

This is one of the famous hell passages. Notice verse 43, 45, 47, and especially 47, where JC says it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into hellfire.

Remember, we are given new bodies when we enter heaven, perfect, uncorruptable bodies. Well....here you have someone entering into the kingdom of God with only one eye, instead of entering hell whole. Now catch this, it is really simple. If we enter into the kingdom of God now, and do it with only one eye (because we plcuked out the other, then now is when we experience hellfire also, with both eyes (if we so choose not to pluck one of em out).

We are all God's children, we come to earth to die, so that we will value the free gift of eternal life that God has given to us all. Just as the captain of our faith was made perfect through the things that he suffered, so are we. We will indeed drink from the cup that Jesus drank from, and it will be glorious. We all are being taught this lesson of death by the teacher that cannot fail, that teacher is our Dad. And Dad would never let any of his children suffer needlessly or forever.

That passage does not support what you are saying. These are not absolute statements Jesus is making about what our bodies will, or will not, be like after Jesus's return. If you want to use this passage, then you must also account for verses 46 and 48. Do you then believe that this supposedly spiritual hell, which believers go through, will endure for eternity?

Any arguments against hell by appealing to a "loving God" clearly ignore the utter serious of sin and the absolute holiness of God. I think these are two concepts all but lost in the western Church.

Again, no arguments against hell, but serious arguments against it being an enternal place of torture for people. God is the saviour of all men, just not all men are harvested at the same time. Some now, who believe the goodnews God gave Christ to give to us, some later, at Jesus' second coming, when our flesh dies.

Unfortuneately, the western church has made physical a spiritual concept. Just as a real Jew is not physical, or just as heavenly Jerusalem is not physical, and just because the new covenant is not physical, does not mean they are not real. So hell being spiritual does not mean that it's not real.

You can only physically torture somebody for so long then the body breaks down, but spiritual torture can be endured much longer, and since we are spiritual beings having a physical experience, it seems perfectly rational that the hell Jesus spoke of was spiritual.

Again, hell is never spoken of as a spiritual concept. It is always spoken of as a place where punishment ensues for the unbeliever.

 

[coffeeelover]

False dichotomy.

Are you a parent? If you are what level of disobedience would it take for you to say pour lighter fluid on your kid set them on fire, and torture them for say not eternity, but just one solid year? If a parent burned their child with cigarettes for a year strait for disobedience would you say that was a loving parent?

Same for God. A loving God doesn't torture its children for eternity.

 

[smaller]

A couple brief facts about 'the Lake of Fire.'

There is not one single named person in the entire Bible given as an example of a person who will go therein. No, not one.

There is not one single named person in the entire Bible even threatened with such a fate.

I would like to think as 'christians' that we would all agree who WILL be in that LAKE of FIRE that WILL burn forever and ever...without END and that is the devil and his messengers who ARE headed there no matter what.

These are NOT our fellow mankind.

The simplicity of my observation is as follows. Did Jesus show us WHERE Satan, the devil and his messengers are in the Gospels? WHERE do you ask?

Why, that would be IN and WITH mankind.

IF this is so, why would you look upon ANY man and be void of those open disclosures and revealings of THE OTHER PARTIES? That to me does not make sense.

I am not a Roman Catholic fan, having been one many years ago, but they can certainly be considered orthodox in their beliefs. Do you know that it is NOT a requirement of that very large body of believers to believe that there will be ANY PERSON in the LAKE OF FIRE?

Cardinal Cormac Myrphy O'Connor Speaks of his Hope of Universal Salvation

They and many other orthodox and even 'some' Protestants still pray for ALL MEN in the HOPES that they will all be delivered by the Grace of God.

And those who make such prayers have every right to believe that GOD CAN and WILL ANSWER the prayer for ETERNAL MERCY upon ALL mankind.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men

I do not pray for devils in men, but I do pray for their RELEASE from satan's DARKNESS within, starting IN myself.

Those of you who are busy figuring out 'christian' ways to burn people alive in fire forever in the name of God in Christ would do yourselves well to read that last text.

s

 

[Bubba]

I was going to put this in my own words, but this guy did a good job. We really need to rethink this whole supposively orthodox view of eternal punishment. Bubba


Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian†or “Eternalâ€
by Ken Eckerty

Most Christians who believe in the doctrine of never-ending punishments base this on several passages in the New Testament that seem to speak of punishment in terms of “eternity.†Some of these passages include 2 Thes. 1:9, Rev. 14:11, and Rev. 20:10-15. However, the conclusion that God will torment most men forever is primarily based on a faulty understanding of the meaning of the Greek words “aion†and “aionios.†Unfortunately, most of our English Bibles do not accurately translate these words, and as a result, the doctrine of “eternal†hell continues to thrive in the midst of the organized church. Let’s take a look at both of these words and see how most Christians have misapplied them.
“Aionâ€
The Greek noun “aion†literally means “an age†or “an indeterminate period of time.†Hebrews 1:2 tells us that “God made the ages,†and the Apostle Paul tells us that there was a state of existence BEFORE the ages (1 Cor. 2:7) and that the ages will END. (1 Cor. 10:11) Clearly, if something begins and ends, it cannot be unending.
Strong’s Concordance gives this definition for the word “aion:â€
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age.
According to Strong, this little four-letter Greek word can mean both “eternity†and “a period of time.†Huh? How can something mean both a period of time which clearly has a beginning and ending AND a state of existence that has neither beginning nor end? The simple answer is it can’t! The Greek language is not like English. It is much more precise which is why I’m sure God chose this as the language of the New Testament. While some English words can carry two different meanings totally separate from context, the Greek language is not so. While there can be different usages for a Greek word based on context, there is no one Greek word, that I am aware of, that can have two totally opposite meanings.
Let’s look at one of the verses that is commonly used to prove the doctrine of never-ending punishment.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11)

The Greek word translated “forever and ever†is the word “aion†(used twice). There are three problems with the way the King James translates this verse.
First, if something is “for ever,†why bother adding another “ever?†Are we to think that there is more than one “for ever†or that we have to have an extra “ever†added so we get the point?
Secondly, both uses of the word “aion†are in the plural form. The problem with this should be obvious to anyone who is honest. Are we to somehow think that there is more than one (plural) eternity? No theologian teaches that and yet there is no doubt that the plural form of “aion†is used in this verse. If the King James translators looked at the tense a bit more carefully, they would have written the above phrase to read “for evers and evers.†This, of course, makes absolutely no sense. However, if we properly interpret “aion†to mean “an indeterminate period of time,†then the verse makes perfect sense. Here is how it should be translated:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up unto ages of ages; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11)

This interpretation helps us understand that “an age†can be a very long time – the length of which is known only to God. However, “a very long time†is NOT “forever and ever.â€
Thirdly, it’s very interesting to note that those who are tormented will have no rest DAY or NIGHT. If this is an eternal state of punishment, why are the terms “day†and “night†used? Day and night were created by God as recorded in the Genesis account. (Eternity is not created – it has always existed). These are terms that designate time, not eternity, and since eternity contains no “day†or “night,†I think it is clear that the word “aion†in Rev. 14:11 cannot mean eternal. The punshment (torment) will continue as long as it takes for God to accomplish His purpose—no more, no less. It does not go on “forever and ever†as boasted by theologians, but it lasts only for the ages.

 

[smaller]

I was going to put this in my own words, but this guy did a good job. We really need to rethink this whole supposively orthodox view of eternal punishment. Bubba


Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian†or “Eternalâ€
by Ken Eckerty

This interpretation helps us understand that “an age†can be a very long time – the length of which is known only to God. However, “a very long time†is NOT “forever and ever.â€
Thirdly, it’s very interesting to note that those who are tormented will have no rest DAY or NIGHT. If this is an eternal state of punishment, why are the terms “day†and “night†used? Day and night were created by God as recorded in the Genesis account. (Eternity is not created – it has always existed). These are terms that designate time, not eternity, and since eternity contains no “day†or “night,†I think it is clear that the word “aion†in Rev. 14:11 cannot mean eternal. The punishment (torment) will continue as long as it takes for God to accomplish His purpose—no more, no less. It does not go on “forever and ever†as boasted by theologians, but it lasts only for the ages.

The understanding above is put forth by a few believers.

I cannot adhere to the temporary LAKE OF FIRE for many reasons, unless the 'aion' temporary LAKE OF FIRE adherents end that working in ANNIHILATION.

We know for example that Satan and his messengers ARE going into that LAKE. We also know that there is no written record of THEM coming out or being 'changed' by going therein. In fact there is ample evidence that THEY will be NO MORE forever and NOT existing in 'eternity.' So the LAKE, for THEM is their FINALITY as it is likewise with the POWER OF DEATH which will also be heading to that LAKE and not coming out later or being changed. DEATH WILL BE NO MORE FOREVER, period.

So the idea of 'aionian' or 'aion' Lake of Fire is FALSE.

s

 

[Free]

Are you a parent? If you are what level of disobedience would it take for you to say pour lighter fluid on your kid set them on fire, and torture them for say not eternity, but just one solid year? If a parent burned their child with cigarettes for a year strait for disobedience would you say that was a loving parent?

Same for God. A loving God doesn't torture its children for eternity.

Your analogy completely misses the point, and I am not saying that God tortures people for eternity. Although that is a common teaching I do not think it is the biblical position on the eternal hell.

The point is punishment. Does a loving parent punish their children? Does God punish people and is he loving for doing so? If God punishes people, when does he do so?

 

[Free]

A couple brief facts about 'the Lake of Fire.'

There is not one single named person in the entire Bible given as an example of a person who will go therein. No, not one.

There is not one single named person in the entire Bible even threatened with such a fate.

I would like to think as 'christians' that we would all agree who WILL be in that LAKE of FIRE that WILL burn forever and ever...without END and that is the devil and his messengers who ARE headed there no matter what.

These are NOT our fellow mankind.

Scripture clearly disagrees with your "facts":

Rev 20:14-15, 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (ESV)

I am not a Roman Catholic fan, having been one many years ago, but they can certainly be considered orthodox in their beliefs. Do you know that it is NOT a requirement of that very large body of believers to believe that there will be ANY PERSON in the LAKE OF FIRE?

Cardinal Cormac Myrphy O'Connor Speaks of his Hope of Universal Salvation

They and many other orthodox and even 'some' Protestants still pray for ALL MEN in the HOPES that they will all be delivered by the Grace of God.

And those who make such prayers have every right to believe that GOD CAN and WILL ANSWER the prayer for ETERNAL MERCY upon ALL mankind.

Just a reminder that the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation is not to be discussed.

 

[Free]

I was going to put this in my own words, but this guy did a good job. We really need to rethink this whole supposively orthodox view of eternal punishment. Bubba


Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian†or “Eternalâ€
by Ken Eckerty

Most Christians who believe in the doctrine of never-ending punishments base this on several passages in the New Testament that seem to speak of punishment in terms of “eternity.†Some of these passages include 2 Thes. 1:9, Rev. 14:11, and Rev. 20:10-15. However, the conclusion that God will torment most men forever is primarily based on a faulty understanding of the meaning of the Greek words “aion†and “aionios.†Unfortunately, most of our English Bibles do not accurately translate these words, and as a result, the doctrine of “eternal†hell continues to thrive in the midst of the organized church. Let’s take a look at both of these words and see how most Christians have misapplied them.
“Aionâ€
The Greek noun “aion†literally means “an age†or “an indeterminate period of time.†Hebrews 1:2 tells us that “God made the ages,†and the Apostle Paul tells us that there was a state of existence BEFORE the ages (1 Cor. 2:7) and that the ages will END. (1 Cor. 10:11) Clearly, if something begins and ends, it cannot be unending.
Strong’s Concordance gives this definition for the word “aion:â€
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity 2) the worlds, universe 3) period of time, age.
According to Strong, this little four-letter Greek word can mean both “eternity†and “a period of time.†Huh? How can something mean both a period of time which clearly has a beginning and ending AND a state of existence that has neither beginning nor end? The simple answer is it can’t! The Greek language is not like English. It is much more precise which is why I’m sure God chose this as the language of the New Testament. While some English words can carry two different meanings totally separate from context, the Greek language is not so. While there can be different usages for a Greek word based on context, there is no one Greek word, that I am aware of, that can have two totally opposite meanings.
Let’s look at one of the verses that is commonly used to prove the doctrine of never-ending punishment.
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11)

The Greek word translated “forever and ever†is the word “aion†(used twice). There are three problems with the way the King James translates this verse.
First, if something is “for ever,†why bother adding another “ever?†Are we to think that there is more than one “for ever†or that we have to have an extra “ever†added so we get the point?
Secondly, both uses of the word “aion†are in the plural form. The problem with this should be obvious to anyone who is honest. Are we to somehow think that there is more than one (plural) eternity? No theologian teaches that and yet there is no doubt that the plural form of “aion†is used in this verse. If the King James translators looked at the tense a bit more carefully, they would have written the above phrase to read “for evers and evers.†This, of course, makes absolutely no sense. However, if we properly interpret “aion†to mean “an indeterminate period of time,†then the verse makes perfect sense. Here is how it should be translated:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up unto ages of ages; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Rev. 14:11)

This interpretation helps us understand that “an age†can be a very long time – the length of which is known only to God. However, “a very long time†is NOT “forever and ever.â€
Thirdly, it’s very interesting to note that those who are tormented will have no rest DAY or NIGHT. If this is an eternal state of punishment, why are the terms “day†and “night†used? Day and night were created by God as recorded in the Genesis account. (Eternity is not created – it has always existed). These are terms that designate time, not eternity, and since eternity contains no “day†or “night,†I think it is clear that the word “aion†in Rev. 14:11 cannot mean eternal. The punishment (torment) will continue as long as it takes for God to accomplish His purpose—no more, no less. It does not go on “forever and ever†as boasted by theologians, but it lasts only for the ages.

The main problem with this, as westtexas correctly pointed out as it relates to Matt 25:46, is that the same word is used of both "punishment" and "life." Either both are eternal or both are temporary.

 

[smaller]

Just a reminder that the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation is not to be discussed.

I'm sorry. I thought everyone believed that the vessels of dishonor will be universally destroyed and vessels of honor universally saved?

Do you NOT allow Roman Catholic positions to be posted here as I put in my prior post link?

There is no coherent 'universal' doctrine out there that I am aware of as you reference above. The entirety of those various groups are just as divided as the myriads of other christian groups.

The observation I put in my post was that THE LAKE OF FIRE is permanent and forever, and not 'aionian' or temporary. And I don't think we have disagreement on that.