Hell

[Free]

I'm sorry. I thought everyone believed that the vessels of dishonor will be universally destroyed and vessels of honor universally saved?

Do you NOT allow Roman Catholic positions to be posted here as I put in my prior post link?

There is no coherent 'universal' doctrine out there that I am aware of as you reference above. The entirety of those various groups are just as divided as the myriads of other christian groups.

The observation I put in my post was that THE LAKE OF FIRE is permanent and forever, and not 'aionian' or temporary. And I don't think we have disagreement on that.

It may have just been the wording of your post that caused some confusion. Universal Reconciliation (UR) is the belief that all men will eventually be saved and none will be destroyed or spend eternity in hell. I thought that is what you were alluding to but apparently I was incorrect.

 

[smaller]

It may have just been the wording of your post that caused some confusion. Universal Reconciliation (UR) is the belief that all men will eventually be saved and none will be destroyed or spend eternity in hell. I thought that is what you were alluding to but apparently I was incorrect.

I did make a couple of basic observations on the matter of 'hell' which may be better termed the Lake of Fire, that being the following.

Factually speaking there is zero record in the scriptures of any named person said to be going to the Lake of Fire or even threatened with same.

Christian Orthodoxy of the Eastern or Western variety theologians have for centuries acknowledged this fact and to this day they, in every service, continue to pray for all mankind. In Roman Catholicism they even continue the efforts POST DEATH in their position of purgatory in their hopes and the possibility of Gods Prevailing Grace which same they all still acknowledge.

I don't and can't fault them in that effort as the Apostles also affirm that PRAYERS and THANKSGIVING be made for ALL men.

So, those are my observations, and they are certainly not unusual seeing the vastly held positions of well established orthodox groups.

None of us have conclusively ascended our 'Perfect judgement thrones' to the extent that we can rule any named person into the LAKE OF FIRE just yet. At least in Orthodoxy they respect their own prayers and the possibility of Gods Prevailing Grace and have NOT made any conclusions about ANY named persons being in the Lake. Those within Orthodoxy who DO do that will receive the rightful warnings of HERESY.

That FINAL DETERMINATION is in the HANDS OF GOD ALONE.

Reflect on that how you will.

s

 

[Bubba]

The main problem with this, as westtexas correctly pointed out as it relates to Matt 25:46, is that the same word is used of both "punishment" and "life." Either both are eternal or both are temporary.

Rotherham ’s Emphasized version properly translates Matt. 25:46 as follows:

And these shall go away into age-abiding correction: but the righteous into
age-abiding life.

Matthew 25:46 (Young's Literal Translation)
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Free,
As you can see, these two literal translations (and there are more) use the Greek word "aionios" correctly. There is a Greek word which Matthew could have used to come more closely to the English word eternal, found in Romans 1:20, which is "aidios", why did he not use this form of the word? Also, I find it interesting that the word used for punishment "kolasis" in Matthew is correctional and not for the sake of just causing someone misery for their transgressions for eternity. Why did Matthew choose this Greek word also for punishment instead of " timoria", which would better fit punishment , for the sake of inflicting misery?
This translation from above says it well;
Rotherham ’s Emphasized version properly translates Matt. 25:46 as follows:

And these shall go away into age-abiding correction: but the righteous into
age-abiding life.

Bubba

 

[smaller]

Rotherham ’s Emphasized version properly translates Matt. 25:46 as follows:

And these shall go away into age-abiding correction: but the righteous into
age-abiding life.

Matthew 25:46 (Young's Literal Translation)
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Free,
As you can see, these two literal translations (and there are more) use the Greek word "aionios" correctly. There is a Greek word which Matthew could have used to come more closely to the English word eternal, found in Romans 1:20, which is "aidios", why did he not use this form of the word? Also, I find it interesting that the word used for punishment "kolasis" in Matthew is correctional and not for the sake of just causing someone misery for their transgressions for eternity. Why did Matthew choose this Greek word also for punishment instead of " timoria", which would better fit punishment , for the sake of inflicting misery?
This translation from above says it well;
Rotherham ’s Emphasized version properly translates Matt. 25:46 as follows:

And these shall go away into age-abiding correction: but the righteous into
age-abiding life.

Bubba

It's a false argument Bubba. Age abiding life continues on without end when God is All in All. So no, there is no 'ending' of that 'age abiding' life. It carries ON into God. Neither is there ending of the other unless it is in 'permanent termination or annihilation.'

 

[Free]

Rotherham ’s Emphasized version properly translates Matt. 25:46 as follows:

And these shall go away into age-abiding correction: but the righteous into
age-abiding life.

Matthew 25:46 (Young's Literal Translation)
46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Free,
As you can see, these two literal translations (and there are more) use the Greek word "aionios" correctly. There is a Greek word which Matthew could have used to come more closely to the English word eternal, found in Romans 1:20, which is "aidios", why did he not use this form of the word? Also, I find it interesting that the word used for punishment "kolasis" in Matthew is correctional and not for the sake of just causing someone misery for their transgressions for eternity. Why did Matthew choose this Greek word also for punishment instead of " timoria", which would better fit punishment , for the sake of inflicting misery?
This translation from above says it well;
Rotherham ’s Emphasized version properly translates Matt. 25:46 as follows:

And these shall go away into age-abiding correction: but the righteous into
age-abiding life.

Bubba

So, in order to be consistent, you must also believe that life, for the believer, is not eternal. Therefore, at some point, all people will cease to exist.

Factually speaking there is zero record in the scriptures of any named person said to be going to the Lake of Fire or even threatened with same.

While that may be true, it is irrelevant since the Bible clearly states that all unbelievers will go there. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Bubba]

It's a false argument Bubba. Age abiding life continues on without end when God is All in All. So no, there is no 'ending' of that 'age abiding' life. It carries ON into God. Neither is there ending of the other unless it is in 'permanent termination or annihilation.'

Smaller,
"Aidios" would better suit your theology, but it is not used in Mt. 25:46. An age has a beginning and end, be it short or long. Many including myself believe this whole chapter is referring to the Jewish nation, that they would be going through an age of impending punishment (70 AD) and then a period (age) of "stupor" while the Gentiles are grafted in (Romans11).
Bubba

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
"Aidios" would better suit your theology,

There is no need to insult me Bubba. We 'have' eternal life as believers, right here, right now.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I will not dispute that THAT LIFE in Him abides in this present age, or that it continues on into the ages to come, or that continuation carries on to God Being All in All. Make of it what you will.

but it is not used in Mt. 25:46. An age has a beginning and end, be it short or long. Many including myself believe this whole chapter is referring to the Jewish nation, that they would be going through an age of impending punishment (70 AD) and then a period (age) of "stupor" while the Gentiles are grafted in (Romans11).

Of which your understanding of speaks zero to the Fire to which the DEVIL and his messengers ARE sent.

I will not disagree with you that 'temporal forms' of these workings are working in this present age but that does not equate to their non-eternal natures or that 'forms' of those fires or separations are not already working in this present age and will continue on into the next...until the final culmination of the DEATH of DEATH in the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his messengers.

But to say that 'either' of those workings, eternal life or eternal death are not continuing would be false.

One working, that of eternal life will be when God is all in all.

and the other will be when death shall be no more, period. The 'second death' is the death of the power of DEATH. I have no reason to find DEATH coming out of that FINALITY in some 'new improved or changed' version.

s

 

[smaller]

While that may be true, it is irrelevant since the Bible clearly states that all unbelievers will go there. That's all I'm saying.

IF the Devil said "I believe" is that liar telling the truth?

I said earlier in this thread that I would hope all christians could agree at the least that the devil and his messengers ARE conclusively and beyond any doubt heading INTO the Lake of Fire and are NOT coming out.

Beyond this however we have zero business as believers into presuming any named person into that position in the Lake of Fire. None of us can absolutely rule out that God can work upon the heart of any man at any point, even the blink of an eye, to avoid that fate.

Believers should carry hope for EVERY person even as they do for themselves.

s

 

[Bubba]

There is no need to insult me Bubba. We 'have' eternal life as believers, right here, right now.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Hebrews 13:5
Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I will not dispute that THAT LIFE in Him abides in this present age, or that it continues on into the ages to come, or that continuation carries on to God Being All in All. Make of it what you will.


Of which your understanding of speaks zero to the Fire to which the DEVIL and his messengers ARE sent.

I will not disagree with you that 'temporal forms' of these workings are working in this present age but that does not equate to their non-eternal natures or that 'forms' of those fires or separations are not already working in this present age and will continue on into the next...until the final culmination of the DEATH of DEATH in the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his messengers.

But to say that 'either' of those workings, eternal life or eternal death are not continuing would be false.

One working, that of eternal life will be when God is all in all.

and the other will be when death shall be no more, period. The 'second death' is the death of the power of DEATH. I have no reason to find DEATH coming out of that FINALITY in some 'new improved or changed' version.

s

No insult intended, "aidios" in Romans 1:20, speaking about God's eternal power would be a beter word for MT.25:46 instead of "aionios" (age) for those who want to used the English word "eternal".
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

John 6:54 (Young's Literal Translation)
54he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, hath life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day;
John 10:28 (Young's Literal Translation)
28and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
1 John 5:13 (Young's Literal Translation)
13These things I did write to you who are believing in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God.

Smaller, the English word eternal has no equal in the Greek, except possibly "aidios", why do our translations not reflect this fact? Bias?
Bubba

 

[theLords]

I've been reading a lot about hell...what are your thoughts?

How literal do you take it?

When it comes to hell, I believe it is a true literal place of hell fire and "gnashing of teeth."

I believe that God made hell for the demons and that Man decides it would rather go to hell then to heaven. God doesn't "send them" to hell, but man asks to be sent.

I believe that the loving mind of God will not be the one torturing or inventing ways of punishment, but that man's own mind will create them and punish himself and one another.

I believe that some places of hell are so dark that only God will know about it because only He is strong enough to carry the burden.

I believe in various levels of hell. Muhammad, Buddha- they have influenced the world for centuries and are responsible for bringing billions to hell. I believe that "all sin is equal to all sin" and that no sin is greater than another. I believe that the various levels of hell are because in one life one person can have a sin count of 100 and another 1,000. I believe it's the number of sins that separate you in hell fire. Someone who dies at 30 would have had less days and less chances to sin than someone who dies at 90.

I once heard it preached that the reason God is waiting til the end of the earth to judge sin is because of the lasting effects of sin on man kind. Charles Darwin is long dead but his hatred of God is still impacting billions of people here in 2010. Hitler's hatred is still impacting the world some 60 years later.

I believe TRUE hell, is knowing that there is a loving, merciful God and that you rejected Him and now will forever be disconnected from Him. That thought alone of never feeling God's love again or His kindness is more terrifying to me than any physical punishments in hell.

 

[smaller]

John 6:54 (Young's Literal Translation)

54he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, hath life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day;
John 10:28 (Young's Literal Translation)
28and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
1 John 5:13 (Young's Literal Translation)
13These things I did write to you who are believing in the name of the Son of God, that ye may know that life ye have age-during, and that ye may believe in the name of the Son of God.
Smaller, the English word eternal has no equal in the Greek, except possibly "aidios", why do our translations not reflect this fact? Bias?

By all means flesh out your bias question. I do enjoy reasoned and civil discussion.

The concept of 'eternal' even exists in math, so it is not a word or concept uncommon to any language. The number of digits behind the decimal point in the square root of Pi has no end and were there math in the next age, that would remain what it is.

My point is that the ETERNAL LIFE OF GOD is what we 'share' and 'participate' in and within regardless of the present or future material set it is placed, set or operates within.

Don't know why you'd argue otherwise quite frankly.

 

[Free]

IF the Devil said "I believe" is that liar telling the truth?

I said earlier in this thread that I would hope all christians could agree at the least that the devil and his messengers ARE conclusively and beyond any doubt heading INTO the Lake of Fire and are NOT coming out.

Beyond this however we have zero business as believers into presuming any named person into that position in the Lake of Fire. None of us can absolutely rule out that God can work upon the heart of any man at any point, even the blink of an eye, to avoid that fate.

Believers should carry hope for EVERY person even as they do for themselves.

s

So are you denying what is stated in Rev 20?

 

[smaller]

No insult intended, "aidios" in Romans 1:20, speaking about God's eternal power would be a beter word for MT.25:46 instead of "aionios" (age) for those who want to used the English word "eternal".
Bubba

And thank you for clarifying that in relation to Gods eternal 'power.'

Thought you were going south of the border on me...

 

[theLords]

There is no eternal torture, by a loving God. Either God is evil or there is no Hell. Believe what you wish. I think the choice is obvious.

This invalidates God's justice, if we as Christians have our sins counted against us but have been forgiven by the blood, what about those who reject Christ?

What is the point of Christ's death and resurrection? What did He save us from? There would have been no need for it. He could have just as easily revealed Himself to us to give us a lasting relationship with Him.

God doesn't send man to hell.

There are 2 kingdoms on earth. 2 kings we can choose to serve:

1) Jesus Christ. The King of kings. In His kingdom is no sin, no war, no pain, no fear. He promises love, life, joy, peace, and to take care of you eternally. As an added bonus He will reveal His heart to you and promises that if you seek Him you will get to know Him.

or

2) Lucifer. The prince of this earth. In his kingdom is war, pain, suffering, torture and death. He promises eternal suffering and that you'll get to do whatever you want. There are no rules only complete chaos. And gives you access to all the sin you can stand.

Man decides whose kingdom he will dwell in. By warning the world of hell, God is doing a merciful, completely loving act.

 

[smaller]

So are you denying what is stated in Rev 20?

Not at all whatsoever. I am not inclined however to force named people in there or presume any named person into that position because that as a fact does not exist for our examples TO DO.

Please see prior about orthodox positions in this exact matter.

Orthodoxy says you MAY consider that people will be in the position or you MAY not. But you can NEVER say conclusively as that is a God Alone determination.

 

[Bubba]

"My point is that the ETERNAL LIFE OF GOD is what we 'share' and 'participate' in and within regardless of the present or future material set it is placed, set or operates within.

Don't know why you'd argue otherwise quite frankly."

Smaller,
I totally agree with your statement, I am arguing that Mt 25:46 is not a proof text for eternal punishment or necessarily for eternal life. It is speaking to the "age" that the unbelieving Jew will be in and the believer of that 1st century, one in an "age" of correctional punishment, the other in an "age" of life with the Lord. Then when Jesus at the end of all ages hands over the Kingdom to the Father (1Cor. 15:24), we begin eternity with our glorified bodies.
Bubba

 

[smaller]

"My point is that the ETERNAL LIFE OF GOD is what we 'share' and 'participate' in and within regardless of the present or future material set it is placed, set or operates within.

Don't know why you'd argue otherwise quite frankly."

Smaller,
I totally agree with your statement, I am arguing that Mt 25:46 is not a proof text for eternal punishment or necessarily for eternal life.

And I would simply point out that eventually you are going to have to come clean on the subject of 'eternal punishment' of the DEVIL and his messengers and their fate as well as the fate of the POWER OF DEATH in the infamous LAKE of FIRE.

And IF you say those entities are NOT going to be eternally punished or eternally annihilated therein THEN (please follow the if-then logic) THEN you are placing the potential of SATANIC SALVATION on the table, which same I cannot possibly hold to, nor would I expect any believer to hold to that position.

We have a hard enough time TURNING people from that power to turn around and PROMOTE the salvation of same do we NOT?

And you are putting the same (AGE ONLY-temporary) fate for the POWER OF DEATH on the table, that being coming out in some NEW form or 'changed' again which same I cannot hold to. The HOPE of us all is for the total PASSING AWAY FOREVER of that working of the power of DEATH when God puts a PERMANENT FINISH to using it. And again I would not expect any believer to believe otherwise. Why would I?

I HOPE you don't hold that against me.

I understand however 'what' you are attempting. Valiant as it may be...and no offence intended. It just doesn't work for me on the above basis.

It is speaking to the "age" that the unbelieving Jew will be in and the believer of that 1st century, one in an "age" of correctional punishment, the other in an "age" of life with the Lord. Then when Jesus at the end of all ages hands over the Kingdom to the Father (1Cor. 15:24), we begin eternity with our glorified bodies.
Bubba

Please feel free to address the above. And I do not STOP Gods Abilities at the point of physical death. Roman Catholicism, as weird as it may seem on many fronts DID give a nod in that effort to the held belief of the early churches, fragile as the position of purgatory is. It is developed because the possiblity of that happening IS in the text and we have NOT arrived yet at the rim of the LAKE OF FIRE judgments. That is yet to come. So I credit them for their HOPE.

s

 

[Free]

Not at all whatsoever. I am not inclined however to force named people in there or presume any named person into that position because that as a fact does not exist for our examples TO DO.

Please see prior about orthodox positions in this exact matter.

Orthodoxy says you MAY consider that people will be in the position or you MAY not. But you can NEVER say conclusively as that is a God Alone determination.

I honestly fail to see what relevance "named people" has to do with anything. Rev 20 makes it clear that unbelievers will go into the lake of fire. It cannot be made any clearer. This is the hell that Jesus so very strongly warned against.

 

[smaller]

I honestly fail to see what relevance "named people" has to do with anything. Rev 20 makes it clear that unbelievers will go into the lake of fire. It cannot be made any clearer. This is the hell that Jesus so very strongly warned against.

I am not so apt to look upon unbelievers who are for a fact blinded by the 'god of this world' as being alone and of themselves in the matters of unbelief, nor am I willing to say that God cannot at any time prior to the Lake of Fire judgment save any person or that God cannot at any time prior to death have a conversion process in place with anyone. None of these can be effectively and conclusively ruled out.

I do feel very comfortable in stating that the devil and his messengers will without any doubt find themselves in the midst of that Lake because we have ample evidence of that being a scriptural fact.

That is just where I am at and I wish to remain there til the end. You are certainly welcome to advance any named person into that fate you are led. I cannot go there for the reasons above and for the examples of many Orthodox theologians who have convinced me factually that it is not that cut and dried of a subject until the END.

s