Honour and Shame and the Prodigal Son

[wayseer]

The 'honour and shame' system operated in first century Palestine, as it still does in many parts of the world, as social currency - it facilitates social mobility.  To bring more 'honour' will bring more social benefits.  To bring 'shame' is to risk ridicule if not exclusion.  The 'honour and shame' system operates in the same way as does money in Western culture.  Money facilitates mobility up or down the social ladder.

For a more comprehensive examination of how the 'honour and shame' system operated read the story of Jephthah.  Here we see 'social mobility' in action as Jephthah is first 'shamed' and then 'honored' and then makes an unholy oath to God which must 'honour' even if it means murdering his only daughter.

Back to Jesus and the story of the Prodigal Son.

Here the father 'runs' after the son.  Now no self-respecting father would have 'run' after anyone let along a son who has shamed his father out of the family property, squandered it and had the 'shame' to return.  It would be that the son's were expected - demanded even - to 'run' after their father.  For a father to 'run' would have set tongues wagging and fingers pointing.  To have welcomed back this particular son would have drawn gasps of disbelief from Jesus' audience.  The shock impact was what Jesus used to get his message across.  Whether the crowd accepted the story or not, they would certainly never forget it.

That God would 'run' after sinners is still a hurdle many Christians cannot jump over - even after recognizing they themselves have been so rescued by a gracious God.       

  

 

[BornAgain]

The 'honour and shame' system operated in first century Palestine, as it still does in many parts of the world, as social currency - it facilitates social mobility. To bring more 'honour' will bring more social benefits. To bring 'shame' is to risk ridicule if not exclusion. The 'honour and shame' system operates in the same way as does money in Western culture. Money facilitates mobility up or down the social ladder.

For a more comprehensive examination of how the 'honour and shame' system operated read the story of Jephthah. Here we see 'social mobility' in action as Jephthah is first 'shamed' and then 'honored' and then makes an unholy oath to God which must 'honour' even if it means murdering his only daughter.

Back to Jesus and the story of the Prodigal Son.

Here the father 'runs' after the son. Now no self-respecting father would have 'run' after anyone let along a son who has shamed his father out of the family property, squandered it and had the 'shame' to return. It would be that the son's were expected - demanded even - to 'run' after their father. For a father to 'run' would have set tongues wagging and fingers pointing. To have welcomed back this particular son would have drawn gasps of disbelief from Jesus' audience. The shock impact was what Jesus used to get his message across. Whether the crowd accepted the story or not, they would certainly never forget it.

That God would 'run' after sinners is still a hurdle many Christians cannot jump over - even after recognizing they themselves have been so rescued by a gracious God.

This has always been a favorite parable of mine since I was a child and remember hearing this and the message Jesus gives to all of us.

In Luke 15 the prodigal son decides to take his inheritance and spend it on wasteful (prodigal) living. He spends all of his money, finds himself in the muck and mire of a pig pen. He comes to his senses and says, “I have sinned against God and I have sinned against Heaven. I need to go back to my father and say, ‘I am not worthy to be a son; make me a servant.’â€

The father is there with open arms to receive him. But do you understand what this parable rep­resents? God is the Father. That son represents any child of God who goes into sin and wastes his life in prodigal living. Was the son lost? Yes. He was separated from the blessings of the father. He was separated from the benefits of the father. He no lon­ger was in the house of the father. He was involved in sin.

And until he said to himself, “I have sinned, and I have to repent,†he no longer enjoyed the fellowship of the father. The same is true of Christians today. We can sin so as to ultimately be lost.

 

[wayseer]

This has always been a favorite parable of mine since I was a child and remember hearing this and the message Jesus gives to all of us.

In Luke 15 the prodigal son decides to take his inheritance and spend it on wasteful (prodigal) living. He spends all of his money, finds himself in the muck and mire of a pig pen. He comes to his senses and says, “I have sinned against God and I have sinned against Heaven. I need to go back to my father and say, ‘I am not worthy to be a son; make me a servant.’”

The father is there with open arms to receive him. But do you understand what this parable rep­resents? God is the Father. That son represents any child of God who goes into sin and wastes his life in prodigal living. Was the son lost? Yes. He was separated from the blessings of the father. He was separated from the benefits of the father. He no lon­ger was in the house of the father. He was involved in sin.

And until he said to himself, “I have sinned, and I have to repent,” he no longer enjoyed the fellowship of the father. The same is true of Christians today. We can sin so as to ultimately be lost.

This is the general teaching that follows the Prodigal Son.

But I am suggesting there is another level that reveals something deeper. I am inviting you to go deeper.

 

[rrowell]

This is the general teaching that follows the Prodigal Son.

But I am suggesting there is another level that reveals something deeper. I am inviting you to go deeper.

I don't have a crystal ball, or play with Ouija Boards, so do you care to elaborate on that?

 

[rrowell]

The 'honour and shame' system operated in first century Palestine, as it still does in many parts of the world, as social currency - it facilitates social mobility. To bring more 'honour' will bring more social benefits. To bring 'shame' is to risk ridicule if not exclusion. The 'honour and shame' system operates in the same way as does money in Western culture. Money facilitates mobility up or down the social ladder.

For a more comprehensive examination of how the 'honour and shame' system operated read the story of Jephthah. Here we see 'social mobility' in action as Jephthah is first 'shamed' and then 'honored' and then makes an unholy oath to God which must 'honour' even if it means murdering his only daughter.

This is pagan and the opposite of what the Bible teaches. (its called worldly)

Back to Jesus and the story of the Prodigal Son.

Here the father 'runs' after the son. Now no self-respecting father would have 'run' after anyone let along a son who has shamed his father out of the family property, squandered it and had the 'shame' to return. It would be that the son's were expected - demanded even - to 'run' after their father. For a father to 'run' would have set tongues wagging and fingers pointing. To have welcomed back this particular son would have drawn gasps of disbelief from Jesus' audience. The shock impact was what Jesus used to get his message across. Whether the crowd accepted the story or not, they would certainly never forget it.

That God would 'run' after sinners is still a hurdle many Christians cannot jump over - even after recognizing they themselves have been so rescued by a gracious God.

According to Jesus, he does:

Matthew 18:11-14 (KJV)
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[smaller]

This is the general teaching that follows the Prodigal Son.

But I am suggesting there is another level that reveals something deeper. I am inviting you to go deeper.

Yes, that parable has been hacked to death by numerous sights. Usually done to uphold any particular viewers doctrinal slants. We all have our particular slants don't we?

In the dissection of parables Jesus openly gave us the 'tools' of understanding 'all parables.' It is found in Mark 4.

So for me, if any of the basic components of parable understanding are missing, I know immediately that such sights are void of understandings, as Jesus provided.

Most will have 2 out of the 3 components identified in some way. That would be God and the person or people involved. Freewillers tend to just have the persons themselves in view. Determinists will tend to get God actually involved as well.

The components however are 3 fold and quite simply laid out by Jesus. And these 3 are involved with 'every and all' parables.

God
Person(s)
the devil

One will seldom find the devil operational in their dissections of parables. And most instead will almost automatically eliminate that working. Particularly if it involves taking that fact 'personally' applied in any parable.

It's the common missing link. And if it's missing, the person doing the dissecting is talking out of their hat so to speak. So if I have my own particular 'doctrinal' slant, I'd like to think it's based on the factual construct components that Jesus gave for understanding all parables.

But because it's an unseen component, it's problematic to factor that component into the pictures.

s

 

[rrowell]

Most will have 2 out of the 3 components identified in some way. That would be God and the person or people involved. Freewillers tend to just have the persons themselves in view. Determinists will tend to get God actually involved as well.

Hi Smaller, it's me, the free willer .

I know what the problem is, the parables are actually spoken in tongues and all we need is you to interpret them

Na... just throw out the man made doctrine and it all makes sense...

 

[smaller]

Jesus provided the view. I merely observe the facts of same.

 

[rrowell]

Jesus provided the view. I merely observe the facts of same.

Bornagain summed it up here:

Originally Posted by BornAgain
This has always been a favorite parable of mine since I was a child and remember hearing this and the message Jesus gives to all of us.

In Luke 15 the prodigal son decides to take his inheritance and spend it on wasteful (prodigal) living. He spends all of his money, finds himself in the muck and mire of a pig pen. He comes to his senses and says, “I have sinned against God and I have sinned against Heaven. I need to go back to my father and say, ‘I am not worthy to be a son; make me a servant.’â€

The father is there with open arms to receive him. But do you understand what this parable rep­resents? God is the Father. That son represents any child of God who goes into sin and wastes his life in prodigal living. Was the son lost? Yes. He was separated from the blessings of the father. He was separated from the benefits of the father. He no lon­ger was in the house of the father. He was involved in sin.

And until he said to himself, “I have sinned, and I have to repent,†he no longer enjoyed the fellowship of the father. The same is true of Christians today. We can sin so as to ultimately be lost.

Even a child can understand that.

 

[smaller]

Reflect what you will.

His Perfect Light shines.

Both good and bad come from our reflections no matter how many words are piled on for explanations.

s

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By wayseer,

That God would 'run' after sinners

That ^^^ is what everyone, save a minuscule, scattered, remnant fails to see.


Matthew 18:12 "How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and goes into the mountains, and seeks that which is gone astray?"

Matthew 18:13 "And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."

Matthew 18:14 "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."



Notice above, that it is the Shepherd who seeks the sheep, not the other way around, as orthodox Christendom believes. The sheep do not seek the Shepherd. How can they? They are lost.



John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."



Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."

 

[rrowell]

That ^^^ is what everyone, save a minuscule, scattered, remnant fails to see.


Matthew 18:12 "How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, does he not leave the ninety and nine, and goes into the mountains, and seeks that which is gone astray?"

Matthew 18:13 "And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoices more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray."

Matthew 18:14 "Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."



Notice above, that it is the Shepherd who seeks the sheep, not the other way around, as orthodox Christendom believes. The sheep do not seek the Shepherd. How can they? They are lost.



John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."



Matthew 18:11 "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost."

He did come to save that which "was lost".

But one must first belong to the shepherd:

Acts 17:27 (KJV)
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

No matter how you look at it, being "saved" is mans choice, you seek him to become one of his sheep:


John 10:25-27 (KJV)
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

 

[wayseer]

Sad to see the depths so-called Christianity has dropped.

But then this is a degenerate generation.

 

[WIP]

Notice above, that it is the Shepherd who seeks the sheep, not the other way around, as orthodox Christendom believes. The sheep do not seek the Shepherd. How can they? They are lost.

This makes sense but then how do we reconcile this with
Jeremiah 29:13 (KJV)
Matthew 7:7 (KJV)
Luke 11:9 (KJV)

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By wayseer,

Sad to see the depths so-called Christianity has dropped.

But then this is a degenerate generation.

It's been that way for almost two millennia. Once the demonic, pagan doctrines such as eternal torment slipped in, the church has been in a dire state.


In fact, even the Catholic church was a 'Johnny come lately' in the apostasy which was complete before the apostles were all dead:


2 Timothy 1:15 "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia [the seven churches of Asia to whom John wrote - Revelation 2-3] be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2 Timothy 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer [to Alexanders words withstanding Paul's words] no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge."


Alexander the coppersmith, an apostate Christian, apparently had more influence in the church than did Paul.


I have no doubt that the apostle John was exiled to Patmos at the behest of apostate Christians like this man:

3 John 1:9 "I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3 John 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church."


Diotrephes, an apostate Christian, apparently had more influence in the church than did the apostle John.

The Truth about the 'real' magnitude of God's love and mercy is never popular. Carnal Christians prefer the hateful, pagan lies about everlasting torment, and the divisive false doctrines regarding carnal, external religious rituals that do nothing but divide the body of Christ. Analyzing the numbers and memberships in the congregations of Babylon prove this point.

 

[rrowell]

It's been that way for almost two millennia. Once the demonic, pagan doctrines such as eternal torment slipped in, the church has been in a dire state.


In fact, even the Catholic church was a 'Johnny come lately' in the apostasy which was complete before the apostles were all dead:


2 Timothy 1:15 "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia [the seven churches of Asia to whom John wrote - Revelation 2-3] be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2 Timothy 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
2 Timothy 4:16 At my first answer [to Alexanders words withstanding Paul's words] no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge."


Alexander the coppersmith, an apostate Christian, apparently had more influence in the church than did Paul.


I have no doubt that the apostle John was exiled to Patmos at the behest of apostate Christians like this man:

3 John 1:9 "I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3 John 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church."


Diotrephes, an apostate Christian, apparently had more influence in the church than did the apostle John.

The Truth about the 'real' magnitude of God's love and mercy is never popular. Carnal Christians prefer the hateful, pagan lies about everlasting torment, and the divisive false doctrines regarding carnal, external religious rituals that do nothing but divide the body of Christ. Analyzing the numbers and memberships in the congregations of Babylon prove this point.

False doctrine and false teaching like yours came long before the doctrine of Christ.

 

[wayseer]

The Truth about the 'real' magnitude of God's love and mercy is never popular. Carnal Christians prefer the hateful, pagan lies about everlasting torment, and the divisive false doctrines regarding carnal, external religious rituals that do nothing but divide the body of Christ.

Osgiliath has a point.

I was just reading Rowan Williams on this very topic. Here is some of what he said;

'God loved us from the beginning. Before we belonged to anything, before we did anything, before we achieved anything, even before we believed anything, God was loving us. From the beginning ... It’s not that the love of God rewards us for what we do, it’s that the love of God makes us what we are.'

Those who fail to grasp the depth of God's love will always look to the world for their definition of love - which is a conditional love. There are no conditions on God's love for we were there at the beginning. God's love is unconditional as is the father's love for his returning son. The only commandment is that we should try and emulate that love.

 

[smaller]

Osgiliath has a point.

I was just reading Rowan Williams on this very topic. Here is some of what he said;

'God loved us from the beginning. Before we belonged to anything, before we did anything, before we achieved anything, even before we believed anything, God was loving us. From the beginning ... It’s not that the love of God rewards us for what we do, it’s that the love of God makes us what we are.'

Those who fail to grasp the depth of God's love will always look to the world for their definition of love - which is a conditional love. There are no conditions on God's love for we were there at the beginning. God's love is unconditional as is the father's love for his returning son. The only commandment is that we should try and emulate that love.

The prodigal son never ceased being a son. He was blinded for a time til he saw the error of his errant ways and spent 'everything' he had.

Luke 15:21
And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

His father of course never saw the matters that way whatsoever.

We often have to come to the end of ourselves to learn appreciation of Fathers Love.

It was the elder son that seemed to have the issues over actually loving his brother, seeing how he was not 'as obedient' as himself. The account is just as much about the 'bad attitude' of the obedient one as well.

28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him. The account doesn't really resolve this matter as to resolution of the elder son, though it does for the lost one.


Who was more lost?


s

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted By rrowell,

False doctrine and false teaching like yours came long before the doctrine of Christ.

I didn't mention any doctrines rrowell, other than showing from Scripture that the Shepherd goes after every last sheep, and that Paul and John witnessed the apostate church in their day, as well as mentioning a few unscriptural, pagan doctrines that have infiltrated the church (that many Christians still believe are Scriptural). Which "doctrines" of "mine" are you referring to?

 

[wayseer]

It was the elder son that seemed to have the issues over actually loving his brother, seeing how he was not 'as obedient' as himself. The account is just as much about the 'bad attitude' of the obedient one as well.

Indeed - but what triggered the 'obedient' son's antagonism towards the 'wayward' son? It was the 'honour/shame' imperative operating in society. The 'obedient' son was really 'shamed' by his father's ready acceptance of his wayward brother.

Likewise, we too can become antagonistic towards those whom God loves.