LovethroughDove
Member
Well, since I am the dove..............should I add comment?
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
How can the trinity be one God?
- Thread starter Captain Falcon
- Start date
Razeontherock
Member
Shall we? Surely. *deep bow* After you
I am the walrus. I may have to wait a while
LovethroughDove
Member
Obviously I am in love with the dove. (Holy Spirit). You are all correct about the dove on this thread. He is the comforter, he is the Spirit of truth. John 14:17
So, he is a "he" but I have seen him in the form of the following image
He was this energy that looked multi-color and was moving like a dove in flight.
That relates to the Luke 3:22 passage.
I witnessed him in my waking sleep (this is when a lot of my experiences with God happen)
So, he is a "he" but I have seen him in the form of the following image
That relates to the Luke 3:22 passage.
I witnessed him in my waking sleep (this is when a lot of my experiences with God happen)
Razeontherock
Member
Wow! What's in a name, right?
Lets set Jesus aside and look at the Spirit of God. As its "Father, Son and Holy Spirit"
From the NT I have yet to view or convince my mind or understanding that the HS or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of truth is a distinct person, from the "Father" . Jesus has His own Spirit, Will and mind clearly shown in the NT. But what about the Spirit of God?
Indeed the praise is to One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ and to Him who sits on the throne and to the lamb.
Did they fail to praise the Spirit or did the Spirit state "where is the honor due me?"
Man is not a trinity as defined in the trinity in regard to one god. My body is not me. Hence the term "tent of the body" nor is the body of the same substance of "spirit". My spirit knows the thoughts of my mind just as the Spirit of God knows the deep thoughts of God as I read what Paul wrote. What is a soul apart from our spirit? We are spirit formed by God in the body and we have a mind. Hence the Father is our heavenly Father as a male and female union does not produce spirit.
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.
these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
Fathers promise=>In these last days I will pour out "My Spirit".....This is consistent. That is the Father calling that Spirit His own.
Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put "my Spirit"on him, and he will bring justice to the nations. (Jesus clearly stated it was the Father who sent Him and He came to do the Fathers will.)
The Spirit Jesus was baptised with
The Spirit of the "Sovereign LORD" is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners,
Jesus=>for it will not be you speaking, but the "Spirit of your Father" speaking through you.
Jesus=>It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard "the Father" and learned from him comes to me.
Jesus=>But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only "what he hears", and he will tell you what is yet to come. (This goes back to the Spirit knowing the will and thoughts of the mind of the Spirit) Jesus even came to do the Fathers will and stated His teaching was not His own. The Father was the one who sent Jesus.
Could this date be hidden from the Spirit of God who searches the deep thoughts of God?
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
chessman
Member
John was convinced the Spirit :
And he showed me the river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming out from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Revelation 22:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 22:1&version=LEBCover to cover ... see Gen 1-2
Ask yourself; Is the “giving” of the Spirit as distinct as the giving of the Son?
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 John 4:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 4:14&version=LEBSeems clear enough that The Son is not The Father. So what about the Spirit???
the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’” Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
John 7:38-39 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 7:38-39&version=LEBSo, is the Spirit distinct from either the Father or the Son??? Check
Is the Spirit personal???
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever — the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
John 14:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 14:16-17&version=LEBYep. Just as personal as The Father and The Son are, so is the Spirit. He advocates on His own as is known on His own.
So, is the Spirit personal??? Check
Razeontherock
Member
That's because you're placing too much emphasis on the strict English definitions, which is not what good theology is about.
What Trinity is not is as important as what it truly is; apophatic theology serves us well, and is often as close as we get.
The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father. (Acts 2) As the Father promised He would pour out His Spirit in these last days. Jesus does speak of that Spirit as another. The Father does not.John was convinced the Spirit :
And he showed me the river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming out from the throne of God and of the LambRevelation 22:1 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 22:1&version=LEB
Cover to cover ... see Gen 1-2
Ask yourself; Is the “giving” of the Spirit as distinct as the giving of the Son?
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.1 John 4:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 4:14&version=LEB
Seems clear enough that The Son is not The Father. So what about the Spirit???
the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’” Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)John 7:38-39 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 7:38-39&version=LEB
So, is the Spirit distinct from either the Father or the Son??? Check
Is the Spirit personal???
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever — the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.John 14:16-17 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 14:16-17&version=LEB
Yep. Just as personal as The Father and The Son are, so is the Spirit. He advocates on His own as is known on His own.
So, is the Spirit personal??? Check
Father=>"My Spirit"
Jesus=>for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
Jesus=>Spirit of truth
That Spirit is sent in Jesus name and therefore represents Christ Jesus in a believer just as that same Spirit represents the Father in Jesus.
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger on this subject. I heard a story re this a long time ago that put my mind at ease. It seemed that St. Thomas was walking along a dirt road contemplating the Trinity with no success. He came upon a child that was using a spoon to transfer the water from a lake on one side of the road to a depression in the land on the other side of this road that had no water. He asked this child what he was doing. The child responded that he will finish the task of tranfering the water from the lake to empty it completely to make a new lake n the other side of the road b4 St. Thomas could figure out the Trinity. Sorta tells us that we'll never figure it out doesn't it? I believe there's a verse in Isaiah that tells us that God's understanding of everything is far superior than ours, His thoughts are not our thoughts, etc. Says a lot right?
LovethroughDove
Member
Your symbols here gave me an illustration of God from my view.
Father > Son > Spirit filled believers = God/Holy Spirit
Douglas Summers
Member
Hi Randy, The Holy Spirit is a person, not an influence or an emanation. The Scripture refers to Him in word implying personality. John 14:16-17, 26. John 16:7-8; 13-15. He is called another comforter. The Holy Spirit is a divine Person, in the proper sense, Deity. He is called God. Compare Isa. 6:8-10 with Acts 28:25-27. Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16; 8:8-12. Compare 2 Cor. 3:18 with Acts 5:3-4......The most convincing proof is receiving The Holy Spirit during regeneration. That should be proof enough for any born again believer..
I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit is Divine and eternal. From what I read that Spirit searches the mind of God, speaks what He hears and the Father alone calls that Spirit his own. So I don't see that Spirit as a separate from the "Father" in the NT.
Fathers promise =>I these last days I will pour out My Spirit...
Father in regard to Jesus=>Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."
Jesus=>the Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me....
Jesus=>for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
The Spirit Jesus sends He received from the Father. Ref Acts 2
Razeontherock
Member
Randy, you are wrestling with a great issue not dissimilar to the question "who can bind the wind in his fists?"
We cannot separate one "person" of the Trinity from another any more than we can remove an arm or leg. We are one, God is One. Just like we can see distinctions between our own soul vs spirit in a limited way as revealed by God's Word, we can see distinctions between the Trinity in a limited way as revealed by His Word, and the INCARNATION
We cannot separate one "person" of the Trinity from another any more than we can remove an arm or leg. We are one, God is One. Just like we can see distinctions between our own soul vs spirit in a limited way as revealed by God's Word, we can see distinctions between the Trinity in a limited way as revealed by His Word, and the INCARNATION
I just note the Father states "My Spirit" in regard to the HS.
Its One God the Father and One lord Jesus Christ and to Him who sits on the throne and to the lamb. Did they forget about the HS or was the HS covered in glorifying the Father?
So to me this was, (below scripture), from Jesus's will as Jesus is the head of the body of Christ.
While the HS did state this and its a truthful accounting He does not speak on His own but from what he hears.
While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."
And the Spirit searches the mind of the Spirit or deep thoughts of God. As Paul wrote just as our spirit searches our minds and knows our thoughts. That does not suggest to me the Spirit has His own mind and will apart from God.
I just don't see a separate will or mind in the Spirit apart from God the Father. I do see that in Jesus.
Jesus even has His own spirit, "Father into your hands I commit My Spirit"
The HS is vast its in every believer all over the Face of the earth and ,most likely in the angels of God in heaven as well. And who knows where else. The Spirit of the living God.
So if the Spirit communicates the will of Jesus and the Father how do I see Him as a separate person? For I have had answers to prayer to Jesus and answers communicated to me via the Spirit. Jesus didn't need to come down from heaven and speak to me face to face. I shouldn't be alone in that as there are many believers. To me anything coming via the Spirit in speaking of Jesus in the third person is from the Father and any answer speaking otherwise is from the Son. (Jesus)
Examples
Jesus's answer to Paul "my grace is sufficient for you for My power is made perfect in weakness"
If from the Father "Jesus's grace is sufficient for you for His power is made perfect in weakness"
When acting as a witness for Jesus with pure motives. Not by our wisdom but by the power and words of the Spirit like Stephen who was stoned to death. Just like His Lord they didn't like His, (God's), answers. The words of the Father. Just as Jesus spoke from that same Spirit of the Father all that God commanded Him to speak and just how the Father wanted Him to state it. As Jesus stated His teaching was not His own and those words belonged to the Father.
Jesus knew this by experience=>Matt 10:20 ..for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your "Father" speaking through you.
I just don't see the HS introducing Himself to me like a separate person. I pray to Jesus and to the Father I don't pray to the Spirit.
In fact the Spirit prays for us.
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people "in accordance with the will of God."
Now "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
Razeontherock
Member
It goes deeper than you're saying here. Jesus doesn't have a will or mind separate from the Father, either; He and the Father are One. That doesn't mean He's not a separate person. Why apply a double standard to the Holy Spirit?
Although if you don't see it, I think that's inconsequential. This is not Salvific, we don't gain eternal life by our own understanding. And hallelujah for that!
Jesus is shown to have his own will in the NT.
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”
stovebolts
Member
Yes, God the Son maintains perfect harmony with God the Father. When one is honored, all are honored. Within Trinitarien theology, our God is one.
By obedience to the Fathers will.
“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love
Jesus didn't say come to do our will.
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’
Jesus was set apart as The Fathers Son before the incarnation
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?
I wanted to focus on the Spirit of God. The Spirit the Father calls His own as in "My Spirit"
I have no doubt the Fathers very own Spirit is Divine and eternal and God and acts according to the will of the mind of the Spirit.
stovebolts
Member
I'm unsure of what your trying to say?
Were talking Trinitarian theology right?
When you say "Jesus didnt come to do our will", is our referring to our, like you and I? Or our, as in Trinitarian thought?