How can the trinity be one God?

[JLB]

John saw something that looked like a dove. I take it he saw the Spirit in the form of a dove.

The scriptures do not say the Spirit was in the form of a dove.

Like Stove Bolts pointed out, the scriptures say "like a dove".



JLB

 

[Razeontherock]

It's something you can not attain ie. Jesus did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped. Phil. 2:5-7 RSV

You're deliberately cutting that sentence short, severing it from its context. Put it back in context!

 

[Razeontherock]

It means he was in the form of God. Being in the form of God means he had the appearance of the Father.

Lol, you need to read up on "the appearance of the Father." You may start with Ezekiel 1.
Jesus didn't look like that.

 

[MarkT]

The scriptures do not say the Spirit was in the form of a dove.

Like Stove Bolts pointed out, the scriptures say "like a dove".



JLB

There's no getting around it JLB. John saw something, and it looked like a dove. If he didn't see a dove, then what did he see?

Matthew 3:16
And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;

Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.” RSV

John 1:32
And John bore witness, “I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him.

 

[stovebolts]

There's no getting around it JLB. John saw something, and it looked like a dove. If he didn't see a dove, then what did he see?

Matthew 3:16
And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;

Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.” RSV

John 1:32
And John bore witness, “I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him.

Why do you think Matthew says descending like a dove which seems to disagree with how you are reading Luke and John's account.

It is one thing to be as a dove, and another to descend like a dove dont you think?

 

[MarkT]

Why do you think Matthew says descending like a dove which seems to disagree with how you are reading Luke and John's account.

It is one thing to be as a dove, and another to descend like a dove dont you think?

I think your understanding of Matthew is wrong. All three accounts say the same thing. John saw something that looked like a dove. What John is describing is it's form. It looked like a dove. John saw it. John saw this form. It was visible. It had a definite shape. Luke says it descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove.

 

[Razeontherock]

Does that mean it WAS a dove? You sound like you're saying all three Gospel writers state that this was, factually, a dove.

 

[JLB]

here's no getting around it JLB. John saw something, and it looked like a dove. If he didn't see a dove, then what did he see?

He saw the Holy Spirit, descending like a dove.



JLB

 

[MarkT]

Does that mean it WAS a dove? You sound like you're saying all three Gospel writers state that this was, factually, a dove.

I'm not saying it was a dove. I'm saying it had the appearance of a dove. John saw a dove.

 

[stovebolts]

I'm not saying it was a dove. I'm saying it had the appearance of a dove. John saw a dove.

Ok, got it!
Thanks for letting us know how you view it.

 

[MarkT]

He saw the Holy Spirit, descending like a dove.



JLB

How could he see the descent if he did not see the dove? John saw the dove.

 

[JLB]

How could he see the descent if he did not see the dove? John saw the dove.

The scripture plainly says John saw the Holy Spirit.

What was likened to a dove was the descending.


Please stop rearranging the scripture to fit what you want it to say.



JLB

 

[Razeontherock]

To be fair, while John does plainly say that what he saw was the Holy Spirit, I don't read it saying so plainly that the descent was likened to a dove, but the appearance was not. Is there something in Greek or Aramaic that clarifies this?

 

[Jim Parker]

To be fair, while John does plainly say that what he saw was the Holy Spirit, I don't read it saying so plainly that the descent was likened to a dove, but the appearance was not. Is there something in Greek or Aramaic that clarifies this?

See: Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove ....

 

[Papa Zoom]

Well at least we agree that it was the Holy Spirit the descended. The form isn't that important (except that the dove is a significant bird in Scripture).

 

[Razeontherock]

See: Luke 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove ....

I'm aware, but I need your exposition in order to understand your point. Hopefully with relation to my post #473?

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm aware, but I need your exposition in order to understand your point. Hopefully with relation to my post #473?

OH! Ok
You has written (473) "...while John does plainly say that what he saw was the Holy Spirit, I don't read it saying so plainly that the descent was likened to a dove, but the appearance was not...."
All 4 evangelists report the same event.
Luke uses the words "in bodily form."
καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει ὡσεὶ περιστερὰν
and descended the Spirit Holy bodily shape like (a) dove

So, the "bodily form" (shape) is in the pericope even though the 4 evangelists do not use the exact same words.

Of course, that is not to say that the Holy Spirit is a bird.


iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

I'm saying it had the appearance of a dove.

And I have seen, and have testified that this One is the Son of God”.​

John 1:34 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 1:34&version=DLNT

The Testimonies (of both the Voice and the Spirit) both testify, at precisely the right time, that Christ is God. That is, the Son of God. The Son is “of God” as The Spirit is “of God” as The Father is of God.

If there ever was a time with no Son, then there is no Father. The OP is easy.

But having responded, Jesus said to him, “Permit it at this time. For it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this manner”. Then he permits Him.​

Matthew 3:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:15&version=DLNT

It was the right time.

And having been baptized, Jesus immediately ascended from the water. And behold— the heavens were opened to Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as-if a dove, and coming upon Him.​

Matthew 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:16&version=DLNT

Ever seen a dove descend upon a watering hole? They dive in extremely fast. Can you imagine if John The Baptizer had argued with Jesus just a little longer and delayed His descending into the water and ascending from the water even just a second more??? The timing would have been off.

Or if John had convinced Jesus to baptize John instead of the other way???

Their timing was just Righteous

 

[WIP]

How could he see the descent if he did not see the dove? John saw the dove.

I could also make a statement that in my last airplane flight we landed like a dove. In so saying, my intention would be that the landing was soft.

 

[Papa Zoom]

all this silliness over a dove