The scriptures do not say the Spirit was in the form of a dove.
Like Stove Bolts pointed out, the scriptures say "like a dove".
JLB
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How can the trinity be one God?
- Thread starter Captain Falcon
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The scriptures do not say the Spirit was in the form of a dove.
Like Stove Bolts pointed out, the scriptures say "like a dove".
JLB
Razeontherock
Member
You're deliberately cutting that sentence short, severing it from its context. Put it back in context!
Razeontherock
Member
Lol, you need to read up on "the appearance of the Father." You may start with Ezekiel 1.
Jesus didn't look like that.
There's no getting around it JLB. John saw something, and it looked like a dove. If he didn't see a dove, then what did he see?
Matthew 3:16
And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;
Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, “Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased.” RSV
John 1:32
And John bore witness, “I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him.
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stovebolts
Member
Why do you think Matthew says descending like a dove which seems to disagree with how you are reading Luke and John's account.
It is one thing to be as a dove, and another to descend like a dove dont you think?
I think your understanding of Matthew is wrong. All three accounts say the same thing. John saw something that looked like a dove. What John is describing is it's form. It looked like a dove. John saw it. John saw this form. It was visible. It had a definite shape. Luke says it descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove.
Razeontherock
Member
Does that mean it WAS a dove? You sound like you're saying all three Gospel writers state that this was, factually, a dove.
I'm not saying it was a dove. I'm saying it had the appearance of a dove. John saw a dove.
stovebolts
Member
Ok, got it!
Thanks for letting us know how you view it.
The scripture plainly says John saw the Holy Spirit.
What was likened to a dove was the descending.
Please stop rearranging the scripture to fit what you want it to say.
JLB
Razeontherock
Member
To be fair, while John does plainly say that what he saw was the Holy Spirit, I don't read it saying so plainly that the descent was likened to a dove, but the appearance was not. Is there something in Greek or Aramaic that clarifies this?
Jim Parker
Member
Razeontherock
Member
I'm aware, but I need your exposition in order to understand your point. Hopefully with relation to my post #473?
Jim Parker
Member
OH! Ok
You has written (473) "...while John does plainly say that what he saw was the Holy Spirit, I don't read it saying so plainly that the descent was likened to a dove, but the appearance was not...."
All 4 evangelists report the same event.
Luke uses the words "in bodily form."
καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει ὡσεὶ περιστερὰν
and descended the Spirit Holy bodily shape like (a) dove
So, the "bodily form" (shape) is in the pericope even though the 4 evangelists do not use the exact same words.
Of course, that is not to say that the Holy Spirit is a bird.
iakov the fool
chessman
Member
And I have seen, and have testified that this One is the Son of God”.
John 1:34 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 1:34&version=DLNTThe Testimonies (of both the Voice and the Spirit) both testify, at precisely the right time, that Christ is God. That is, the Son of God. The Son is “of God” as The Spirit is “of God” as The Father is of God.
If there ever was a time with no Son, then there is no Father. The OP is easy.
But having responded, Jesus said to him, “Permit it at this time. For it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness in this manner”. Then he permits Him.
Matthew 3:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:15&version=DLNTIt was the right time.
And having been baptized, Jesus immediately ascended from the water. And behold— the heavens were opened to Him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as-if a dove, and coming upon Him.
Matthew 3:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 3:16&version=DLNTEver seen a dove descend upon a watering hole? They dive in extremely fast. Can you imagine if John The Baptizer had argued with Jesus just a little longer and delayed His descending into the water and ascending from the water even just a second more??? The timing would have been off.
Or if John had convinced Jesus to baptize John instead of the other way???
Their timing was just Righteous
I could also make a statement that in my last airplane flight we landed like a dove. In so saying, my intention would be that the landing was soft.