How can there be a soul?

[Bick]

Continuing on Christian Commando's quote:

4- Christ declares- "Ye do err, for man shall be as the Angels are". This was pertaining to a marriage of a woman to 7 brothers, which she'd be married to after physical death.

5- Look at Rev.6:9-11 for the (spirit-souls) who've already died and are with God in Heaven. They have an intellect- 10, spirit bodies, 11.

God is very clear on this subject.

Now, as to King Saul's stupidity in searching out that witch to gain future information, how can Samuels" appaearance even be considered close to representing christ's transfiguration?

The fact is, God allowed Samuel's spirit to leave aradise long enough to appear before Saul and chew him out for his going against God. Question that? Look in the Mew Test where the Old Test Patriarchs are mentioned. Saul is not listed ith them.

God chose Saul, yet Saul himself, chose to go against God's Word and even God Himself in warnings. Saul wouldn't listen, so God chastized Saul by letting Sameul come and lay into him for that. Yes, ist out of norm. for the situation called for extreme measures. Because of that, Saul died young and was lost to god in Hell for his transgressions.

This certainly is not a representation of Christ's transfiguration. Look at the decription of the transfiguration and look at Sameul's appearance, not the same.

MY RESPONSE:

4) I'm not sure how you relate this verse to life during death. As with any Bible subject, the context must be considered.

Please read the account again and you will find the question was not whether she would be married after 'physical death', but to which brother would she be married to in the resurrection.
Christ taught that after death will come resurrection, not bring someone down from heaven.

In this case it is a fabricated story by the Sadducees concerning "the resurrection" which they didn't believe in. But Jesus answered them as to the truth of the resurrection. The woman would not have any husband, for 'in the resurrection', that is, those believers who have died and have been resurrected, will not marry, but are like the angels in heaven....who obviously don't marry. That is the thought pattern. It certainly doesn't mean they become spirit beings like angels.

5) Looking at Rev. 6:9-11: understanding this passage takes a lot of digging as to what the Scriptures say about "soul" and man being a living soul.
It is important that a complete Bible concordance be used. For there are hundreds of verses in the OT particularly, where "soul" (nephesh--Heb.) occurs.
Mankind and animals with blood are considered "soul creatures. That is they are sensate creatures, and have memory and learning ability, etc. And the soul is said to be in, or related to the blood.
See Gen. 9:3-6 "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you...but flesh with the life (soul--Hebrew) thereof, which is the blood thereof, thou shall not eat."
Gen. 9:4 "But flesh with the life (soul--Heb.) thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall you not eat." Also see, Lev. 17:11, 14; Deut. 12:20-24; Ezek 22:27.

When animals were sacrificed, they certainly lost their blood, but it is also said they gave up their soul.

It is my opinion that in his vision, John saw the blood (souls) of those slain, on the altar, and being a vision he heard them crying out to be avenged.
This is similar language as in Gen. 4:10, where the Lord accuses Cain of killing Able, for "..the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground."
In this passage in Rev 6:9-11, it seems to be looking forward until they will be avenged.
Nothing says they are with God in heaven.


All for now, Bick

 

[fcs25]

:-D Science has more than proven that the mind[soul]is a by-product of the workings of the physical brain;which explains why brain injury changes a persons personality completely.When the brain dies you die also because you are your brain.

 

[Devekut]

Science has more than proven that the mind[soul]is a by-product of the workings of the physical brain;which explains why brain injury changes a persons personality completely.When the brain dies you die also because you are your brain.

Actually, all science can prove is that the mind's functioning is dependent on the brain. The brain, I would hold, is the physical instrument that consciousness uses to administer control over the body. Thus they exist in an interdependent relationship in line with the Biblical emphasis on the neccessary unity of body and spirit. The actual physical location and origin of consciousness remains a mystery to science.

 

[Christian Commando]

ok, for any who might be interested, I suggest this book to read- "The Mind and physical brain" by Sir Charles Ekles.

Note, that this man was an agnostic at the time of researching this subject. Yet, incredibly, thru the research of cases about demonic possession, UFOs, psychic abilities, hypnosis, forms of meditations, plus more, he came to this conclusion-

The body and brain are more like a machine that a ghost can operate.

Thus, the physical brain is no more than something like a computer, which will not operate on its own, without a spirit's intellect, to prompt it to operate- (God declares- the body is lifeless without the spirit)- physical aspect- without the spirit of a person to give it life, the body lays lifeless.

And God declares Hell of Old Test. times was enlarged later, to accept the lost "souls" of men. And if look at Christ's Parable of the richman and Lazarus, the richman died and lifted up his eyes from Hell to see Angels carrying Lazarus into the bosom of Abraham.

Now, to claim this would mean something other than Christ plainly spoke, is to be changing His Words, as well as meaning, to believe this was not literally mean't, as Christ declares of what He spoke, He would not have told us such, if were not true.

Thus, a "soul" that has no form, has no eyes, yet the richman even spoke to Abraham, thus if no form, could not speak either.

God Bless!!

 

[Drew]

And if look at Christ's Parable of the richman and Lazarus, the richman died and lifted up his eyes from Hell to see Angels carrying Lazarus into the bosom of Abraham.

Now, to claim this would mean something other than Christ plainly spoke, is to be changing His Words, as well as meaning, to believe this was not literally mean't, as Christ declares of what He spoke, He would not have told us such, if were not true.

Thus, a "soul" that has no form, has no eyes, yet the richman even spoke to Abraham, thus if no form, could not speak either.

God Bless!!

This argument is not very convincing. It really boils down to a claim that if Lazarus and the rich man were not real people and the story is not literally true, then Jesus would not have used it.

Yet we know that Jesus spoke in parables all the time and that the Scriptures are otherwise full of the use of literary devices such as metaphor. If you want to reply with the "it has to be a parable since the names of real people are used", we can go that route.

I think there are compelling reasons to see this as a parable and not as a factual story.

And that is not making Jesus into a "liar" - it makes Him into a person who, like the rest of us, has the sophistication to make points through the use of literary devices.

 

[Radlad72]

Thus, the physical brain is no more than something like a computer, which will not operate on its own, without a spirit's intellect, to prompt it to operate- (God declares- the body is lifeless without the spirit)- physical aspect- without the spirit of a person to give it life, the body lays lifeless.

The spirit mentioned here is the breath. Most people I know who aren't breathing are dead. Of course, the spirit (small 's') is what gives us life. It was what made Adam begin to exist at the beginning of time.

And God declares Hell of Old Test. times was enlarged later, to accept the lost "souls" of men. And if look at Christ's Parable of the richman and Lazarus, the richman died and lifted up his eyes from Hell to see Angels carrying Lazarus into the bosom of Abraham.

This is a parable, right and proper. It is written smack bang in the middle of other parables. It was a story Jesus used to explain things to the Pharisees. And you had better believe they knew exactly what He was talking about. It had nothing to do with fiery torment in hell. This is allegorical and explained that the Israelites (Judah) that they were no longer given a place of power and that it had gone to others (anyone who wasn't Jewish - dogs (ring a bell?)).

Now, to claim this would mean something other than Christ plainly spoke, is to be changing His Words, as well as meaning, to believe this was not literally mean't, as Christ declares of what He spoke, He would not have told us such, if were not true.

This is nonsense. Jesus used stories all the time to make points to those He was talking to. To suggest that everything that came out of Jesus'mouth was to be taken literally is nonsense. He wasn't lying, He was telling a story to make a point (somewhat like the Greek fable writer Aesop - stories that had a moral. No-one calls Aesop a liar. Just a story-teller who made a point through his stories).

Thus, a "soul" that has no form, has no eyes, yet the richman even spoke to Abraham, thus if no form, could not speak either.

As above - a story.

God Bless!!

God bless you as well CC. (any chance you moderate the 'In the pursuit of God forum?)

Rad.

NB. My responses are in blue.

 

[Free]

This topic has been discussed many times here and the "story" of Lazarus and the Rich Man always comes up. I believe it is possible that it is true for the following reason:

In every parable Jesus used situations, settings, items, etc., that were familiar to the listeners -- the context in which he sets the parable. If the context was not familiar then there would be little point in speaking such parables. The same goes Lazarus and the Rich Man -- if the situation and setting were completley foreign to the listeners, then there is little to no value in Jesus giving this "parable".

 

[Radlad72]

This topic has been discussed many times here and the "story" of Lazarus and the Rich Man always comes up. I believe it is possible that it is true for the following reason:

In every parable Jesus used situations, settings, items, etc., that were familiar to the listeners -- the context in which he sets the parable. If the context was not familiar then there would be little point in speaking such parables. The same goes Lazarus and the Rich Man -- if the situation and setting were completley foreign to the listeners, then there is little to no value in Jesus giving this "parable".

The Pharisees indeed would have known what Jesus was talking about. It was not a story togive information to the common people. It was aimed directly at the Pharisees and they would most certainly have got the gist about what Christ was talking about. Else why use it? Jesus knew the Pharisees would understand the correct context of the story and what He was getting at.


If something doesn't gel with the rest of scripture then you had better start thinking of another way of interpretation because it is you/me not the Bible that is wrong. And going to some holding bays when you die doesn't gel at all with the rest of scripture.

Rad.

 

[Bick]

3) ...If it were true, then Jesus wouldn't be in the tomb ("the heart of the earth") three days and nights. And Jesus words that he must die but be raised up the third day are false!

Not at all. I suggest you look up the use of hades in the NT and let us know what you find.

Hi Free. Let us, indeed, look at "Hades" and, hopefully, arrive at a conclusion.

First of all, the typical definition from secular dictionaries cannot be considered the Biblical meaning. For, they generally define 'Hades' as the abode of departed spirits of the dead; and this is based on Greek mythology.

Etymologically it would appear to mean "the unseen". But, depending on the context, it may be translated "grave". And the Holy Spirit shows us that "Hades" is equivalent to "Sheol", which is mostly translated "grave" in the OT: Acts 2:27 and 31 "For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One experience corruption" and "Forseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying, 'He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh experience corruption"
, quoting from Psalm 16:8-11, where the word in Hebrew is "Sheol". NRSV, etc.

Let us look at the scriptures where "Hades" occurs:

Matt. 11:23, "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will be brought down to Hades."
Here, Jesus criticizes Capernaum, for in spite of His preaching and demonstrating the power of God, they refused to believe him. Evidently, through their pride they thought they were so high and mighty, like "being exalted to heaven", yet Jesus predicts they will be brought down to Hades, or "the grave", after the judgment.

Matt. 16:18, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it."
Some may interpret this as "the powers of the grave (or death) shall not prevail against it."
I lean toward this: "the powers of the unseen shall not prevail against it," believing these "powers of the unseen" are Satan and his kingdom.

Luke 10:15, Same as Matt. 11:23.

Luke 16:23: In this account the rich man is said to have died, been buried, and then being tormented in Hades.
To me, "Hades" here means "the grave"; and nowhere in the rest of the Bible is anything said, or implied, that after death a person has another body with eyes, ears, a tongue, feelings etc, that can be tormented.

Acts 2:27 and 31: Discussed above; "Hades" equivalent to "Sheol", meaning "unseen" or "grave", depending on the context.

Rev. 1:18, "...I have the keys of Death and Hades."
This phrase "Death and Hades", to me, could be translated "Death and the Grave" or "Death and the Unseen" and still make sense; for in death, a person might be blown to bits, or die in the sea, or be buried in the ground.

Rev. 6:8, "Its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed with him;"
Similar to above: Hades, the grave, the unseen, follows Death.

Rev. 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. 14. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;.. "

In verse 12 John says he saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. Then in vs. 13 he says some come from the sea, and some from Hades, the grave.
Understanding vs. 14 is a little tricky. To me it means there will be no more death and the grave on the earth anymore, them figuratively being cast into the lake of fire.

And this makes sense, for after (or during) the Great White Throne judging, there is New Heavens and New Earth, on which there is no death. And no one could drown in the sea, for there is no sea.

Well, "Free" and others, these are my conclusions.

Keep in the Word. Bick

 

[Drew]

Hello unred:

You and I had a little side convo going about whether this present world will or will not be "destroyed". I argued that it will really be re-made, you provided texts that suggested a more apocalyptic fate for this present world, while not denying (I think) that our ultimate destination is on a "new" Earth.

Just an update re my response to your argument: I suggest the possibility that Jesus and other writers of Scripture were born into a long tradition of using "coded" apocalyptic imagery to describe what are, in fact, much more "run of the mill" events. Thus, when Jesus refers to "stars falling from the sky", He is talking about events on earth, not actual cataclysmic collapse of the universe. In this spirit, I also am inclined to think that certain apocalyptic texts in Matthew, almost universally taken to be about the end of the world, are really coded statements from Jesus about coming destruction at the hand of the Romans (i.e. what happened in 70 AD, not what will happen in our future). Maybe we can keep going on this, perhaps in another thread since it is a bit of a sidetrack....

 

[Vic C.]

... In this spirit, I also am inclined to think that certain apocalyptic texts in Matthew, almost universally taken to be about the end of the world, are really coded statements from Jesus about coming destruction at the hand of the Romans (i.e. what happened in 70 AD, not what will happen in our future). Maybe we can keep going on this, perhaps in another thread since it is a bit of a sidetrack....

It takes a great leap of faith to look at these texts from the historical and cultural perspective. It is very enlightening though and would make a good topic for the Eschatology (End Times) Forum.

 

[Free]

The fact is, God allowed Samuel's spirit to leave paradise long enough to appear before Saul and chew him out for his going against God.

What is a spirit then and what is paradise? This appears to be nothing more than a game of semantics.

 

[MarkT]

Supposedly when we die our soul (essentially ourself without the physical body) goes to heaven. But you see, we all mistakenly identify ourselves with things that don't really exist...Our personalitys, our ego and our consciousness/self-awareness...Our personalities are a result of our experience, and our ego is a result of attachment to the physical world. Our consciousness is a result of our nervous system .So when we die, we leave the body, the ego, personality, and most importantly our consciousness behind. So what is left?

I don't think so. The soul doesn't go to heaven. It goes to Hades or it enters God's rest. The spirit, your intelligence and your ability, returns to God. To question the existence of the soul apart from the body is to question the existence of the heavenly things. You might as well lose all hope. My soul is sorrowful to hear you all say such things.

 

[Bick]

The fact is, God allowed Samuel's spirit to leave paradise long enough to appear before Saul and chew him out for his going against God.

What is a spirit then and what is paradise? This appears to be nothing more than a game of semantics.

NO 'FREE', that isn't my quote! My understanding of the account of Saul and the appearance of 'Samuel', is that 'he' was a spirit brought up by the witch (known to have a familiar spirit--1 Sam. 28:7ff), which God controlled to prophecy to Saul of his and Israels defeat at the hands of the Philistines, and he and his sons death.

And, even though the fugure could be seen, at least, by the witch, and had clothes on similar to the way Samuel must have dressed, I cannot believe it was 'the spirit of Samuel', but a 'familiar spirit' brought up by the witch.

Since the popular view is that 'paradise' is heaven, and 'above', this spirit says, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" NRSV. He spoke as if he came up from the ground--not down from 'paradise'.

My views, Bick

 

[Radlad72]

Supposedly when we die our soul (essentially ourself without the physical body) goes to heaven. But you see, we all mistakenly identify ourselves with things that don't really exist...Our personalitys, our ego and our consciousness/self-awareness...Our personalities are a result of our experience, and our ego is a result of attachment to the physical world. Our consciousness is a result of our nervous system .So when we die, we leave the body, the ego, personality, and most importantly our consciousness behind. So what is left?

I don't think so. The soul doesn't go to heaven. It goes to Hades or it enters God's rest. The spirit, your intelligence and your ability, returns to God. To question the existence of the soul apart from the body is to question the existence of the heavenly things. You might as well lose all hope. My soul is sorrowful to hear you all say such things.

I am sorry Mark, but you have the translation of the words for spirit (ruach) and soul (nephesh) all mixed up. 'Nephesh' is acurately translated as being, living person, etc. Not some ethereal form that exists inside you. Also, 'Ruach' is more accurately translated as breath or air. That which God breathed into Adam (ruach) to make him a livng soul (nephesh). The Greek word 'pneuma' is used for spirit in the NT and it is the base word where we get pneumatic, pneumonia - breath and air is more accurate (unless another word is added and then it becomes the Holy Spirit).

Spirit is nothing more thatn the breath of God that gives people life. It is our 'life-force' if you like. When we die, we breath our last and it goes back to the One who gave it.

Rad.

 

[Free]

NO 'FREE', that isn't my quote!

Actually, yes it is. I'll even quote it again to prove it:

"The fact is, God allowed Samuel's spirit to leave aradise long enough to appear before Saul and chew him out for his going against God." (Posted by Bick on Fri Oct 22, 2007 10:28pm)

And, even though the fugure could be seen, at least, by the witch, and had clothes on similar to the way Samuel must have dressed, I cannot believe it was 'the spirit of Samuel', but a 'familiar spirit' brought up by the witch.

Let's look at the context of the passage in question:

1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."
1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

This clearly is the spirit of Samuel. The text makes no indication that it is merely a familiar spirit which both the woman and Saul confuse with Samuel. They both recognize Samuel and Saul carries on a conversation with him.

 

[Bick]

MY RESPONSE: Yes, its true, she calls the spirit, "Samuel", not simply "the spirit". What do you think it means when she said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" It would appear that she brought up the spirit, not God. Since she could bring up familiar spirits, which, to my understanding, are demon spirits which can personate a human, is this then a case where God allowed her to bring up the "spirit" of Samuel? Even today, spirt mediums bring up spirits, when asked by someone, and they call them "Father" or "Mother" or the name of some loved one.

And another question, if this was the spirit of Samuel, and it was in the ground somewhere, is this true for all the dead? Yet, Eccl. 12:7 says, "..and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." My understanding is that God is in Heaven, up, not down in the ground.

In rereading the text, I do not see that Saul could see the spirit, for he asked, "What is his appearance?". It is true, Saul could converse with the spirit. In fact the spirit asks, "Why have you distrubed me by bringing me up?", as if he didn't like to be distrubed.

I will admit "Samuel" was familiar with Saul's life of disobedience to the Lord, and "Samuel" prophecied the defeat of Saul and Israel.

It certainly is a strange account. My views lean toward "Samuel" being a familiar spirit. Why? Because all that the Scriptures might say on this subject must be considered, first of all starting with Eccl. 12:7.
See also: Job 12:10 "In His hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."
Job 34:14,15 "If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and aman would return to dust."
Psa. 146:3,4 "Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing." etc.

Also, if this is, indeed, Samuel's spirit, that can be seen, can hear and talk, then, is this true of all the dead? And if before he was brought up, he was existing somewhere, for he said, "Why have you disturbed me?" Yet, what of the number of verses which declare that in death, in the grave, there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise: Here are some:

Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol (grave) who can give you praise?"

Psa. 30:9 "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit (grave)? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"

Psa. 88:10-12 "Will Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee? ...Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"

Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down in silence."

Eccl. 8:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."

Isa. 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee; death cannot celebrate thee.."

So, 'Free', my desire is to understand the truth. It is difficult for me to believe that in this account it is Samuel's spirit brought up, which would indicate his spirit was alive during his death, and could be called up. For this premise goes against many other scriptures, some of which I've listed above.

All for now,

 

[guibox]

Yes, Bick.

Traditionalists want to put 'spirits' alive in heaven, 'down in hell' and 'in the netherworld' all at the same time in different functions.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-22 also state that it is the spirit of ALL men that 'goeth up' or in the case of Ecclesiastes 12, 'return to God who gave it'. This means that both the wicked and righteous spirits go back to God and 'goeth up'.

That means that this 'spirit' is not in the ground and not in Sheol as some want to interpret Samuel and the witch story as being.

You can't have it both ways.

The fundamental problem is making the 'spirit' the 'soul', the 'cogitating existence of man outside the body'. The 'spirit' is the 'ruach', 'the spark of life' given to all men.

Even animals have 'spirit'! Look at ecclesiastes 3 again!

BTW, nowhere does it say that the 'spirit of Samuel' came up! Read it again.

 

[Free]

So, 'Free', my desire is to understand the truth. It is difficult for me to believe that in this account it is Samuel's spirit brought up, which would indicate his spirit was alive during his death, and could be called up. For this premise goes against many other scriptures, some of which I've listed above.

Mat 17:2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.
Mat 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

The biggest problem in discussions such as this is the far too narrow understanding of 'spirit' and 'soul' by those who reject life after death prior to the resurrection. Both terms have many nuances which seem to be continually ignored and until they are acknowledged, the discussion really goes nowhere.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Bick on Mon Oct 22, 2007:

Bick wrote: “And, even though the figure could be seen, at least, by the witch, and had clothes on similar to the way Samuel must have dressed, I cannot believe it was 'the spirit of Samuel', but a 'familiar spirit' brought up by the witch.â€Â

[quote:6f0db]quote by free:
Let's look at the context of the passage in question

1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his appearance?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage.
1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Saul answered, "I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do."
1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."
1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel. And there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night.

This clearly is the spirit of Samuel. The text makes no indication that it is merely a familiar spirit which both the woman and Saul confuse with Samuel. They both recognize Samuel and Saul carries on a conversation with him.

MY RESPONSE(Bick): Yes, its true, she calls the spirit, "Samuel", not simply "the spirit". What do you think it means when she said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" It would appear that she brought up the spirit, not God. Since she could bring up familiar spirits, which, to my understanding, are demon spirits which can personate a human, is this then a case where God allowed her to bring up the "spirit" of Samuel? Even today, spirt mediums bring up spirits, when asked by someone, and they call them "Father" or "Mother" or the name of some loved one.[/quote:6f0db]

She cries out when she sees Samuel. Obviously, this is not the usual familiar spirits impersonating someone who has died. This is the real person and she recognizes him. The Bible does not fudge around. It says: 1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, and 28:16 And Samuel said, and 28:20 Then Saul fell at once full length on the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel, without any further explanation or hint that it is a demon imposter.

quote by Bick:
And another question, if this was the spirit of Samuel, and it was in the ground somewhere, is this true for all the dead? Yet, Eccl. 12:7 says, "..and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." My understanding is that God is in Heaven, up, not down in the ground.

In rereading the text, I do not see that Saul could see the spirit, for he asked, "What is his appearance?". It is true, Saul could converse with the spirit. In fact the spirit asks, "Why have you distrubed me by bringing me up?", as if he didn't like to be distrubed.

I can agree here that Saul may not been able to see the spirit of Samuel. He must have been able to hear him, or Samuel could have used the medium’s voice to speak to Saul. Personally, I tend to think that the spirit of a person would have the same restless, disembodied feeling that a fallen angel seems to experience, and that is why they rest, asleep in Christ until the day they will be given their new eternal spiritual bodies fashioned in substance like the body that Christ had when he rose from the dead. Even in this semi-unconscious state, the souls under the altar in Revelation seem to be having a restless sleep from which they awaken and cry for justice.

quote by Bick:
I will admit "Samuel" was familiar with Saul's life of disobedience to the Lord, and "Samuel" prophecied the defeat of Saul and Israel.

It certainly is a strange account. My views lean toward "Samuel" being a familiar spirit.

That is why I felt this account was not a good one to use to prove the existence of the spirit out of the body, because it is such an exceptional case. It would be like using the account of Enoch or Elijah to say we will be brought to God in a flaming chariot or something.

quote by Bick:
Why? Because all that the Scriptures might say on this subject must be considered, first of all starting with Eccl. 12:7.
See also: Job 12:10 "In His hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."
Job 34:14,15 "If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and aman would return to dust."
Psa. 146:3,4 "Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing." etc.

These verses don't show the spirit doesn’t exist without the body, but that the body cannot exist without the spirit. At least not that we know of, except as a mechanical flesh and blood body, like a person who is ‘brain dead’ and on life support.

quote by Bick:
Also, if this is, indeed, Samuel's spirit, that can be seen, can hear and talk, then, is this true of all the dead? And if before he was brought up, he was existing somewhere, for he said, "Why have you disturbed me?" Yet, what of the number of verses which declare that in death, in the grave, there is no knowledge, no remembrance, no praise: Here are some:

Psa. 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol (grave) who can give you praise?"

Psa. 30:9 "What profit will there be in my blood when I go down to the pit (grave)? Shall the dust praise thee? Shall it declare thy truth?"

Psa. 88:10-12 "Will Thou show wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee? ...Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? And thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"

Psa. 115:17 "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down in silence."

Eccl. 8:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything."

Isa. 38:18 "For the grave cannot praise thee; death cannot celebrate thee.."

So, 'Free', my desire is to understand the truth. It is difficult for me to believe that in this account it is Samuel's spirit brought up, which would indicate his spirit was alive during his death, and could be called up. For this premise goes against many other scriptures, some of which I've listed above.

I like your attitude. I don’t know if we can get any closer to the truth in this thread but it’s interesting to think it over. The scriptures you list don’t appear to say anything more than the body is going to return to dust after the spirit is removed from it, and the body without the spirit can‘t think or praise God or declare truth or know anything. None of them appear to me to say that the spirit ceases to exist but scriptures do say it is resting or asleep. The blood is the life of the body, but it isn’t said to be the life of the spirit, is it? A spirit doesn’t have flesh and blood and is invisible to normal people. The witch in Samuel’s case must have had special spiritual abilities taught her by the demons who probably possessed her mind and body.

Great topic for Halloween, btw. :scatter: