How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[DivineNames]

And you are free to believe whatever you want. If your dogmatic beliefs mean that much to you, fair enough. But you can't then claim that you are interested in an "objective" reading of the bible. You would have to be open to the possibility that Gospel writers made mistakes, or misused parts of the Old Testament, for that to be the case. You can't have it both ways.

This is a Christian forum and as Chrstians we believe the bible is true. If you are just here to convince us that it isn't you may want to consider going somewhere else.

My point was that you aren't interested in an objective reading of the bible, you are not open to anything that may conflict with your dogmatic beliefs. Do you accept that?

 

[Solo]

The sign was for the house of David, and the virgin birth was that of Jesus Christ, Immanuel. Simple to understand, but a contention for the children of the devil who decide what is right or wrong in life.

The lies and deceptions are an everyday practice of the father of lies, and many believe him over God the creator who can not lie. Believe who you want. It is no big deal to me. You have been warned by many that Jesus Christ is the savior, and without him you are condemned.

Got your finger on the "hellfire and damnation button" already, eh? Next you'll gnashing your teeth as we are told the adversaries of Jesus did when they realized he was right.

"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey and when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste"

Are you telling us that this child was Jesus?

Yes. Are you telling me that you can't see it?

 

[bibleberean]

The Old Testament in the clearest terms declares that the Jews would be driven into the world and would be a stench in the sight of the nations if they failed to obey God and keep the commandments He gave them as a peculiar nation.

Jeremiah 25:18 To wit, Jerusalem, and the cities of Judah, and the kings thereof, and the princes thereof, to make them a desolation, an astonishment, an hissing, and a curse; as it is this day;

Jeremiah 29:18 And I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them:

God has scattered the Jews throughout the world and there is not a more persecuted people on the planet.

The Jews have suffered terribly at the hands of it's enemies as WWII's attempted extermination by Adolph Hitler proves and this is only one example.

Even as a child the word "Jew" was one of derision and contempt.

The nation of Israel is one of the major proofs of the bible. The Jews are the apple of God's eye and one day He will rescue them from the brink of total destruction.

This is one tool Chrisitans could use to witness to Jews.

I know an ex Jew who wept for days for Israel when he realized from scripture what Israel was going to go through for rejecting her Messiah.

The future for Israel will be good but they will suffer.

Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

Israel in prophecy is an interesting subject and I believe it is a strong witness to convict and witness to Jews.

Some will hear and some will not. Unforunately very few will hear the message.

 

[Andyhill]

Hi all!

bibleberean, you posted:

These groups have pressured Newpapers not to print adds on evangelical projects to reach Jewish communities etc.

I also hate censorship. It is out of place to tell a newspaper publisher what to print (he owns the paper & can do what he likes). If you don't like what a paper prints, don't read it, or better yet, read a competing paper.

I would never go uninvited to a Jewish meeting place and disrupt their services...

Good!

...but I would go to Jewish, Catholic or Muslim neighborhoods to invite Jews, Catholics, Muslims, to come and hear the message of salvation. I would also try to publically advertise it.

That's your right.

In my town here in Oregon we had several people threatened with arrest for passing out gospel tracts in the local park due to the protests of people.

A polite, "No thank you," would have sufficed, I think.

Please bear in mind that this is a Christian forum...

I've noticed! :-D

...and you may read things that offend you.

No, I'm not offended. I'm a thick-skinned ol' walrus!

I see no reason to believe you are here to disrupt the forums.

I'm not. I would be a rude guest to barge into your home, object to your rules and be disruptive. Our Sages teach that, "Good manners preceded the Torah."

Eek, I see that it's past 23:00 here. I've got to be at synagogue by 05:20 or so for special penitential/confessional prayers ahead of Yom Kippur on Wednesday night/Thursday.

Good night!

Andyhill :smt015

 

[DivineNames]

"You can hardly blame evangelicals for seeing a special significance in the name Immanu'el, Hebrew for "God with us," but such language and imagery was right at home in the world of old Jewish nomenclature, where every other proper name seemed a reminder of God's presence. Thus we have Isaiah, which means "God's help"; Michael , "Like unto God"; Israel," "Striving with God"; Elihu, "He is my God"; Adonijah , "Yahweh Lord"; and a host of others.

Then again, some apologists try to rescue their favored exegesis by equating both Immanuel and Jesus with the child mentioned a bit later in chapter 9, "Unto us a child is born...." It is tempting. This section, while obscure, is in fact one of the most powerful and poetic passages in the Old Testament. It may well be an early messianic prophecy (I like to think it is), but in fairness, note that most Jewish scholars (who should know better than evangelicals) insist it is an ode praising Hezekiah, Ahaz's righteous son (2 Chron. 29 ), who came to the throne in 720 B.C. and centralized the worship of Jehovah at Jerusalem. The various titles ascribed to him, such as "Prince of Peace" and "Everlasting Father," were apparently honorifics used by the ancient Jews for favorite kings. (You find the same sort of bread-buttering in Egyptian hymns to the pharaoh and in Babylonian royal eulogies.) Hebrew scholars also remind us, gently, that the key Hebrew verbs in Isaiah 9:6 are in the past tense."


http://www.infidels.org/library/magazin ... rgi93.html

 

[DivineNames]

Secondly, a "virgin birth" is a terrible sign from God. Almost no one will be in a position to verify or witness it! Only Mary would know if its really true, or possibly Joseph if he kept a very close eye on her.

The virgin birth establishes that Jesus was sin free and the son of God. The faith that God gives at the time of salvation, and the witness of the indwelling Holy Spirit confirms the Word to each believer.

It takes a second supernatural event, (Matthew 1:20), to inform a second person, that the first supernatural event actually happened. Not much of a sign.

 

[DivineNames]

"Isaiah's word for "sign" was 'ot, which in the Hebrew Bible invariably indicated an imminent sign or omen, not one in the far future."


Rule 8 - No Promotion of Other Religions:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Debates of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.

 

[Solo]

Let me see, who should one believe? God's Word or the words from an infidel website?

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2 Corinthians 6:14-15

What is an infidel?

The Greek Word transliterated Apistos means

1. unfaithful, faithless, (not to be trusted, perfidious)
2. incredible
a. of things
3. unbelieving, incredulous
b. without trust (in God)

This word is used 23 times in the KJV New Testament.

Here are the verses for study. Note what Revelation 21 says the fate of the unbeliever is:

Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. Matthew 17:17

He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. Mark 9:19

And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither. Luke 9:41

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Luke 12:46

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? Acts 26:8

But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbeliever s. 1 Corinthians 6:6

But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 1 Corinthians 7:12

And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 1 Corinthians 7:13

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 1 Corinthians 7:14

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
1 Corinthians 7:15

If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 1 Corinthians 10:27

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:22

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbeliever s, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Corinthians 14:23

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1 Corinthians 14:24

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2 Corinthians 6:15

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1 Timothy 5:8

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Titus 1:15

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

 

[bibleberean]

Let me see, who should one believe? God's Word or the words from an infidel website?

14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2 Corinthians 6:14-15

What is an infidel?

The Greek Word transliterated Apistos means

1. unfaithful, faithless, (not to be trusted, perfidious)
2. incredible
a. of things
3. unbelieving, incredulous
b. without trust (in God)

This word is used 23 times in the KJV New Testament.

Here are the verses for study. Note what Revelation 21 says the fate of the unbeliever is:

Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. Matthew 17:17

He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me. Mark 9:19

And Jesus answering said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you, and suffer you? Bring thy son hither. Luke 9:41

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. Luke 12:46

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. John 20:27

Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead? Acts 26:8

But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbeliever s. 1 Corinthians 6:6

But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 1 Corinthians 7:12

And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. 1 Corinthians 7:13

For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 1 Corinthians 7:14

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
1 Corinthians 7:15

If any of them that believe not bid you to a feast, and ye be disposed to go; whatsoever is set before you, eat, asking no question for conscience sake. 1 Corinthians 10:27

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Corinthians 14:22

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbeliever s, will they not say that ye are mad? 1 Corinthians 14:23

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1 Corinthians 14:24

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 4:4

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2 Corinthians 6:14

And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 2 Corinthians 6:15

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
1 Timothy 5:8

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Titus 1:15

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 21:8

Good post Solo,

The link to the infidel site has been deleted...

Rule 8 - No Promotion of Other Religions:

You will not post any messages; links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (atheism is considered a "belief" for the purposes of this rule). Debates of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.

 

[DivineNames]

Let me see, who should one believe? God's Word or the words from an infidel website?

Do you have information on the use of that word that suggests that the claim is false?

 

[bibleberean]

We have information from God... that proves this non-Christian site is false.

It is called the bible.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

This is our source. It doesn't matter to us if an infidel accepts it or not.

We have given credible arguments from both the New and Old Testaments.

You don't agree and that is fine.

Speaking for myself I could care less what you believe...

 

[DivineNames]

"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey and when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste"

Are you telling us that this child was Jesus?

Yes. Are you telling me that you can't see it?

The name 'Immanuel' is found in the New Testament where the prophecy is quoted, (Matthew 1:22-23), but is Jesus ever actually called 'Immanuel' by anyone?

What is the "land of the two kings" in the time of Jesus, which is "laid waste"? When he "knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right"?

Was there a time when Jesus didn't reject the wrong?

 

[bibleberean]

"Isaiah's word for "sign" was 'ot, which in the Hebrew Bible invariably indicated an imminent sign or omen, not one in the far future."

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This prophecy is only partially fulfilled and Christ wasn't born until several hundred years later just like the prediction of His virgin birth two chapters back in Isaiah 7. ;-)

People can believe what they want.

Here is a prophecy in Jeremiah concerning the nation of Israel that has yet to be fulfilled after over 2,500 years.

Jeremiah 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Jeremiah 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Jeremiah 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

People who don't believe in the bible in the first place havethe least understanding concerning prophecy and how to apply them.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

"Isaiah's word for "sign" was 'ot, which in the Hebrew Bible invariably indicated an imminent sign or omen, not one in the far future."

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This prophecy is only partially fulfilled and Christ wasn't born until several hundred years later just like the prediction of His virgin birth two chapters back in Isaiah 7. ;-) .

Neither you nor Solo have addressed the CONTEXT of the prophecy/sign of Isaiah.7:14. It was to be a sign to do with the outcome of the situation that faced Ahaz - a sign of deliverance from the confederacy of the two kings of Syria and Israel. That sign being the birth of a Messiah 700 years later would mean nothing to Ahaz and his situation. It is a senseless interpolation. The only honest evaluation of this would be that whoever wrote Matthew simply scoured the OT looking for anything he find to promote the evolving doctrine of Jesus's birth and seized upon Isaiah.7:14 with no regard or explanation for the context of that verse. It is a ludicious "cut and paste" job.

Now instead of becoming exasperated with DN and I because we remain unconvinced by your arguments (which really only amount to - it's true because the NT says so and we are infidels if we don't agree) why don't you tell us, as DN has asked, WHO the child in that prophecy was, the one who would not be old enough to know right from wrong before Assyria defeated the forces in question? If the child of 7:14 is Jesus, then the verses that follow, which I have just alluded to, have to also be about Jesus. But they obviously are not.

Don't threaten us with eternal condemnation - EXPLAIN to us how you are right and show us the light.

 

[bibleberean]

Speaking for myself I am not exasperated by the fact that people are not convinced by my arguments.

You have presented your contentions and we have presented ours.

We believe the New Testament reveals the mysteries of the Old and you don't.

Many Jews have the same problem.

2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Who said you have to believe the New Testament because "we say so"?

We believe that rejection of the scriptures and salvation in Christ through the gospel of grace leads to eternal damnation. It is up to each individual to receive or reject the message.

Why should we be silent of that fact in a Christian forum?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

No one has to be a prophet to know that a Christian is going to say that those who reject the New Testament or condemned.

It may be a good tactic for skeptics to use on those who are weak in their faith but not on a bible believing Christian.

John 3:35-36 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"Oh you Christians got our hands on the threat of eternal damnation button?"

No, we are just giving the message that is clearly spelled out in the bible.

It is simply a warning. Christians do not have the authority to send anyone to hell.

That is God's job.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[Soma-Sight]

"Oh you Christians got our hands on the threat of eternal damnation button?"

No, we are just giving the message that is clearly spelled out in the bible.

It is simply a warning. Christians do not have the authority to send anyone to hell.

That is God's job.

Nicely put.....

 

[DivineNames]

Skeptics in these forums will not be able to stand before the God they mocked and say they never heard the message.

I don't know why you would even say this... don't you believe that all non-Christians are damned? Whether they have heard the message or not?

I believe those who die without Christ are hell bound but I don't send them to hell.

Big difference. :-?

 

[DivineNames]

We believe the New Testament reveals the mysteries of the Old and you don't.

But in this case the New Testament seems to have created a mystery- what do the verses mean if they are really about Jesus?

 

[DivineNames]

If the child of 7:14 is Jesus, then the verses that follow, which I have just alluded to, have to also be about Jesus. But they obviously are not.

...EXPLAIN to us how you are right and show us the light.

Solo, why can't you learn the answer, as to how the verses relate to Jesus, from the holy spirit?

 

[bibleberean]

We believe the New Testament reveals the mysteries of the Old and you don't.

But in this case the New Testament seems to have created a mystery- what do the verses mean if they are really about Jesus?

It is a mystery to you. Not to us. :smt102

The Holy Spirit revealed the manifold prophecies of Isaiah in the the New Testament to the apostles and prophets who wrote the New Testament.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.