How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[DivineNames]

The Holy Spirit revealed the manifold prophecies of Isaiah in the the New Testament to the apostles and prophets who wrote the New Testament.

Where does it make that claim in the Bible? Are you just making that up?

If they did know what everything was about, why didn't they clearly explain it in the New Testament?

 

[einstein]

messiah

I am new to this forum and have been following this thread. It is obvious from the response of the moderators, that it is impossible to have a rational discussion on this subject since when questioned they continually quote from the NT not recognizing the contradictions that arise since they are relying on TRANSLATIONS that do not take into account the true meaning of the original HEBREW text. How many of the moderators speak Hebrew? If you don't, then stop spouting NT quotations about "a virgin" and understand that "ha'almah" means "the young woman or the maiden" (with a definite article). If you would take the time to actually analyze how the Hebrew bible uses terms such as almah, ot, harah, etc. you would at least understand why others suggest that your understanding is flawed since it is based on faulty translations of the original Hebrew text.

 

[bibleberean]

Einstein,

The word maiden can be and is translated virgin for the following reasons.

Mary was both very young and a virgin.

Hebrew

5959. `almah
Search for H5959 in KJVSL
hmle `almah al-maw'

feminine of 5958; a lass (as veiled or private):--damsel, maid, virgin.

See Hebrew 5958

Websters

maiden

MA'IDEN, n.

1. An unmarried woman, or a young unmarried woman; a virgin.

2. A female servant.

3. It is used in composition, to express the feminine gender, as in maid-servant.

MA'IDEN, n. A maid; also, an instrument for beheading criminals, and another for washing linen.

MA'IDEN, a. Pertaining to a young woman or virgin; as maiden charms.

1. Consisting of young women or virgins.

Amid the maiden throng.

2. Fresh; new; unused.

He fleshed his maiden sword.

MA'IDEN, v.i. To speak and act demurely or modestly.

Why is it so hard to understand that we are not going to throw out the New Tesatament to argue our point.

I had a discussion with a rabbi and he told me that no one can be 100% sure how to translate any part of the Old Testament anymore.

I then asked him if that was the case why did he believe the Torah at all.

He told me they were just stories based on events that may or may not have taken place and that they were just kept to teach us moral ways to live.

If that is the case I asked him then how is it possible to have any rational discussion on the scriptures?

He couldn't answer me except to say the Torah was to teach us moral lessons.

 

[bibleberean]

bibleberean wrote:


The Holy Spirit revealed the manifold prophecies of Isaiah in the the New Testament to the apostles and prophets who wrote the New Testament.

Divine Names wrote


Where does it make that claim in the Bible? Are you just making that up?

If they did know what everything was about, why didn't they clearly explain it in the New Testament?

Peter sheds light on the prophecy concerning Jesus in Isaiah 53

Isaiah 53:4-6 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

And on it goes...

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:22-23 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.



Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.


Isaiah 9:1-2 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.

Matthew 4:14-16 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.



Isaiah 53:4-5 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.




Isaiah 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:14-15 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Notice the dual nature of many of these prophecies?.

Psalms 78:2-3 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

"The Old Testament is the New testament concealed the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

I don't know who said the above...



And More

Zechariah 9:9-10 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

Matthew 21:4-5 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

Skeptics will argue that this should have been fulfilled immediately which is what this whole debate is about. We can see that prophecy is not a thing that is explained away as easily as the skeptics would have us believe. Do we believe that Jesus or the messiah rode into Jerusalem in Zechariah's day or do we believe it had a future fulfillment?

Jesus opened the understanding of His disciples to understand what was written about Him.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

As you can see I am "not making this up" and it is plainly written in the scriptures.

Einstein,

I would like to see the evidence that the translators of the NT used "faulty manuscripts".

 

[PHIL121]

To try to steer this back on topic....

The Jews will come to know Jesus is Messiah in their own good time.

Until then we can rest assured that God will never foresake them, because of His promise to Abraham.

Thus, the best we as Christians can do is support the Nation of Israel and give them 'the hint' that Jesus will be returning soon, from both their Holy Scripture (Old Testament) and ours (New Testament)

 

[bibleberean]

Einstein I accidentally deleted your post thinking I was deleting mine.

Sorry. :

Please repost it again.

Your questions and objections were valid and are on point.

Phil, I had to delete yours because no one would know what you were talking about without Einsteins. Again I apologize.

Thanks,

Robert

 

[bibleberean]

To try to steer this back on topic....

The Jews will come to know Jesus is Messiah in their own good time.

Until then we can rest assured that God will never foresake them, because of His promise to Abraham.

Thus, the best we as Christians can do is support the Nation of Israel and give them 'the hint' that Jesus will be returning soon, from both their Holy Scripture (Old Testament) and ours (New Testament)

I agree that we need from the Old and New Testament. The New Testament was written by Jews and the gospels and many of the epistle are aimed directly towards Jews.

That being said I am going to repost the opening statement of this thread.

 

[DivineNames]

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

As you can see I am "not making this up" and it is plainly written in the scriptures.

Fair enough, it does claim that they had thier understanding "opened".


But if they did understand, then why is there no clear explanation in the New Testament of how the verses in question relate to Jesus? The N.T. has created a mystery here.

 

[DivineNames]

It is a mystery to you. Not to us. :smt102

If that is the case, then please prove it, by explaining how the verses in question relate to Jesus.

Otherwise, it is obvious that the verses are a mystery to you.

 

[DivineNames]

Skeptics in these forums will not be able to stand before the God they mocked and say they never heard the message.

I don't know why you would even say this... don't you believe that all non-Christians are damned? Whether they have heard the message or not?

bb-

I believe those who die without Christ are hell bound but I don't send them to hell.

Big difference. :-?

That point seems to be completely irrelevant to what I was saying. You don't think it matters if someone has heard the 'message' or not, so its strange that you would say- "Skeptics in these forums will not be able to stand before the God they mocked and say they never heard the message".

 

[DivineNames]

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. The gospel of John attests to this fact. We must throw it out too if we deny the virgin birth.

Why?

 

[bibleberean]

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. The gospel of John attests to this fact. We must throw it out too if we deny the virgin birth.

Why?

If we discount two of the gospels why should we believe any part of the NT?

Second the main people that are claiming the NT. is inaccurate believe the same thing about the OT.

That's "why"...

 

[bibleberean]

As far as making up things about what Jesus said here is a scripture in John that shows that the apostles were inspired by the Holy Spirit to reveal truth.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

There are many Jews who come to Christ based on comparing the writings of the OT and NT.

I am a firm believer that God will guide those who seek Him into understanding the scriptures.

I am equally convinced that those who have no genuine desire to find God will reject any reason to believe the truth.

God knows His sheep.

John 10:24-31 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

There has never been a scripture are argument that will win over the enemies of Christ. They don't want to hear it.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[DivineNames]

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. The gospel of John attests to this fact. We must throw it out too if we deny the virgin birth.

Why?

If we discount two of the gospels why should we believe any part of the NT?

Well probably you shouldn't, but that isn't a direct connection between the "virgin birth" and "son of God" issues.

 

[DivineNames]

It is a mystery to you. Not to us. :smt102

If that is the case, then please prove it, by explaining how the verses in question relate to Jesus.

Otherwise, it is obvious that the verses are a mystery to you.

Are you going to answer this?

 

[DivineNames]

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Well if they did know "all truth", then why didn't they explain how the verses make sense in relation to Jesus?

Why did the N.T. create this mystery?

 

[bibleberean]

It is a mystery to you. Not to us. :smt102

If that is the case, then please prove it, by explaining how the verses in question relate to Jesus.

Otherwise, it is obvious that the verses are a mystery to you.

Are you going to answer this?

Unless I misunderstand you the answer was already given. The prophecies which were placed in the Old Testament were revealed in the New.

I don't know how to make it any clearer. :smt102

Why does a person who does not believe that the OT. is genuinely God's word want to argue with about the validity of God's word in the New?

Also, no one has to answer every question asked in this forum. Most of the information we post is ignored any way.

That is why I wrote it really doesn't matter to me what you and the other skeptics believe. The only reason I respond to many of the questions posed is for the sake of genuine believers.

 

[einstein]

messiah

I'm back to add a modification of my previous post which was deleted.

The title of this thread refers to responding to Jewish people who do not accept Jesus as the messiah. Back on Aug 6 there was an initial post of several reasons why this is so but no real response from the moderators or anyone else that I can see.

The NT propagated the idea that the reasons the vast majority of Jews did not accept Jesus was due to their "blindness" and "perfidy". In other words sages and rabbis who had studied their own scriptures in their own language for centuries did not understand their own holy books. Common sense would suggest that this is not a likely scenario.

Since Christianity has its roots in Judaism, and recognizing that Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew and practiced and preached largely following the Hebrew Bible and the Torah, then it logically follows that the Jewish Tanach is the PROOFTEXT from which the alleged truths of the NT must follow. In other words, if the gospels state that so and so happened to fulfill the prophecy of such and such a prophet, don't you think it is important to go back and see what the Tanach actually stated in the original Hebrew before just accepting a statement that Luke or John or Matthew puts forward to justify his own beliefs?

I am going to refer to one of the examples that the moderator quoted to prove his point about Jesus fulfilling an OT prophecy.

Mat 2:13-15 tells of a dream Joseph had,in which an angel appeared and told him to flee to Egypt. Joseph does this and remains in Egypt until Herod dies. In the last verse of the passage the claim is made that the return from Egypt by Joseph, Mary and Jesus is a fulfillment of the prophecy of Hosea 11:1 which reads from the Hebrew: For when Israel was young, I loved him, and from Egypt I called my son.

In Mat 2:15 the phrase...Out of Egypt have I called my son.. is used to point to Hos 11:1 to convey the idea that flight to Egypt to escape Herod was not arbitrary, rather it was the fulfillment of what Hosea had foretold.

However, if you look at Hosea 11:2 you find the following: (KJB) As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incese to graven images.

The facts that emerge from reading the original TWO verses in Hosea indicate that the prophet is not describing a child/Messiah fleeing to Egypt and then being summoned back. The prophet tells of how God called the fledgling nation of Israel FROM Egypt, and then how later despite the pleas of the prophets, that nation which came out of Egypt sinned against God by worshipping idols.

The subject of both statements is the Nation of Israel, not Jesus. Furthermore, why does Matthew cherry-pick and lift one phrase out of the first passage while ignoring the second passage even though the subject under discussion is the same? Simple If Matthew would have used both passages it would have been tantamount to saying that Jesus and his parents were idol-worshippers!

Using the phrase above is fraudulent. A simple reading of the passage clearly shows the prophet is stating an event in the history of Israel- this has nothing to do with the Messiah. Furthermore, since the passages are describing 2 events in the history of Israel (Israel, Jacob, etc is repeatedly referred to as God's son in the Tanach), how can you only attempt to lift out one part of the first verse while ignoring the second verse just because it is not a particularly flattering description of the actions of the subject under discussion?

I will conclude that I hope you don't respond with the oft-used mechanism of "type" or "dual fulfillment". There is no basis for this in the Tanach.

 

[bibleberean]

"Mt 2:15
And was there until the death of Herod. As Herod died soon after the flight to Egypt, the sojourn of the family of Jesus in that land must have been brief, for they returned after his death.

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord. The message is the Lord's, the words and voice are the prophet's.

Through the prophet. See Ho 11:1.

Out of Egypt did I call my son. This prophecy, no doubt, had a primary reference to the Exodus, and was an echo of the words of Moses at Ex 4:22-23. In their type and antitype relationship the Old and New Testaments may be likened to the shell and kernel of a nut. Israel was Israel, and God's Son, because it included in itself the yet unformed and unborn body which was later to be inhabited by the spirit of the Word or Son of God. The seed of Abraham was called out of Egypt, that the promised seed enveloped within it might have a body and nature prepared in the land of liberty, and not in that of bondage. Israel was the outer shell, and Christ the kernel, hence the double significance of the prophecy--the twice repeated movement of the nation and the Man."

(TFG 50)

The Fourfold Commentary on Acts

Bibleberean goes on...

Paul the Jew of the tribe of Abraham and a student of Gamiel comments in Galatians...

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

There are many prophecies in the Old Testament which have dual meanings and multiple applications.

For instance the Jews did not understand the dual nature of the Prophecy of Christ's death and then His return.

Christ was put to death and rose again some 2,000 years ago and yet the following prophecy is only partially fulfilled.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Is that Israel or Christ? Surely this is a Messianic prophecy.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead. He will rule on the throne of his father according to the flesh David. This is yet to happen.


The seed of Israel is Christ. He is the one of whom Moses wrote.

Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deuteronomy 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

Deuteronomy 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Deuteronomy 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews.

John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

John 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.(just as Moses said)

John 8:27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

In Isaiah are many Messianic because it is being written to Jews by a Jewish prophet.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

It is the Jews that went astray and it is Christ who had the iniquity of Israel laid upon Him.

Israel is a nation that has disobeyed God and been a deceiver. Israel has sinned and is being punished and will yet be punished for it's sins.

The Messiah will return and He will rule and reign over Israel.

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The Prophet Zechariah wrote of the death of Christ's death at their hands over 400 years before it happened.

I personally know former Jews who have become believers because they could see the prophecies fulfilled in Christ.

Not many Jews will believe and I don't expect that many of the skeptics in this forum will believe.


Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Christians are not going to throw out the New Testament because of the blindness of non-believers.

 

[DivineNames]

Unless I misunderstand you the answer was already given. The prophecies which were placed in the Old Testament were revealed in the New.

I don't know how to make it any clearer. :smt102

Divine Names,

I am sorry. I went to edit my post and messed up yours. I truly am sorry.

I wanted to post an the answer to your question about the two Kings and I put it in your post instead of mine.

This is the second time I have messed up in this thread.

I promise it won't happen again.

I am a moron, I admit it! :