How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[BradtheImpaler]

The problem with the above prophecies, is that the Gospel writers couldn't lie and say he did them, because he obviously didn't.

What they could do (perhaps? :D ) is make up lots of fake prophecy fulfillment. And the genuine Messianic prophecies are things Christians will say Jesus will do "when he comes back"...

Once again, my friend, your post bears witness that you are terminally afflicted with a fatal case of impeccable logic :wink:

The prophecies that lie unfulfilled are the ones that no one could mistake if they were fulfilled, and the ones that are said to already be fulfilled are ones that can't be proven (even if they all do apply to Messiah) apart from a premise that the NT is truthful and accurate in everything it says.

How very suspicious this whole scenario is? 8-)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

There is no question that Christianity has allegorized a great many of the Old Covenant prophecies. Even the restored Temple is allegorized by Paul and Peter as the ekklesian, the Church, built stone upon stone into a Temple.

Of course Rabbinic Jews take exception to this particular form of interpretation- it conflicts with their allegorization of many Old Covenant prophecies- like Isaiah 53, which they say is the nation of Israel.

Maybe so.

These arguments go back to first and second century palestine, and they're no closer to being resolved today than they were then, for the matter of "proof" regarding scripture and religious matters is silly- nearly hilarious.

One must decide for themself what these prophecies mean and do not mean- and what they think of the Christian notion that Messiah partially fulfilled the prophecies- an idea no more preposterous than the Jewish explanation, which is that Messiah has not yet come, and the secualr nation of Israel is God's providence. :roll:

Two thousand years later, and we're still contending for the hearts and minds of the pagans.


Regarding the distinct geneologies: Do modern skeptics truly believe that those sort of slipped by us? LOL

 

[bibleberean]

The Messianic prophecies in Isaiah 53 are about a man.

1 Peter 2:24-25 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

There you have it... :D

This argument was resolved under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit 2,000 years ago...

The Jews were hard hearted and stiffnecked then and they are now.

The atheist and skeptic mockers who come here that believe neither the Old Testament or the New have an additional problem.

They choose to remain ignorant.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:


2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jesus is coming again and Israel will all say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".

The words of Jesus Christ.

Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Guest]

again we havent even touched on the generation count in matthew 1, Its been several posts about this, but to counter your argument about Isaiah 53......

First youre using a christian bible for your prophecy, you should use the hebrew original......

In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions, and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.

52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?

52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

53:1 "And to whom has the arm of the L-rd been revealed?" In Isaiah, and throughout our Scriptures, God's "arm" refers to the physical redemption of the Jewish people from the oppression of other nations (see, e.g., Isa. 52:8-12; Isa. 63:12; Deut. 4:34; Deut. 7:19; Ps. 44:3).

53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

53:3 "A man of pains and acquainted with disease." Israel's adversities are frequently likened to sickness - see, e.g., Isa. 1:5-6; Jer. 10:19; Jer 30:12.

53:4 "Surely our diseases he carried and our pains he bore." In Matt. 8:17, this is correctly translated, and said to be literally (not spiritually) fulfilled in Jesus' healing of the sick, a reading inconsistent with the Christian mistranslation of 53:4 itself.

53:4 "Yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of G- D and afflicted." See Jer. 30:17 - of God's servant Israel (30:10), it is said by the nations, "It is Zion; no one cares for her."

53:5 "But he was wounded from (NOTE: not for) our transgressions, he was crushed from (AGAIN: not for) our iniquities." Whereas the nations had thought the Servant (Israel) was undergoing Divine retribution for its sins (53:4), they now realize that the Servant's sufferings stemmed from their actions and sinfulness. This theme is further developed throughout our Jewish Scriptures - see, e.g., Jer. 50:7; Jer. 10:25. ALSO: Note that the Messiah "shall not fail nor be crushed till he has set the right in the earth" (Isa. 42:4).

53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth." Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

Regarding the claim that Jesus "did not open his mouth" when faced with oppression and affliction, see Matt. 27:46, Jn. 18:23, 36-37.

53:8 "From dominion and judgment he was taken away." Note the correct translation of the Hebrew. The Christians are forced to mistranslate, since - by Jesus' own testimony - he never had any rights to rulership or judgment, at least not on the "first coming." See, e.g., Jn. 3:17; Jn. 8:15; Jn. 12:47; Jn. 18:36.

53:8 "He was cut off out of the land of the living." Israel is described as "cut off" in Ez 37:11.

53:8 "From my peoples' sins, there was injury to them."Here the Prophet makes absolutely clear, to anyone familiar with Biblical Hebrew, that the oppressed Servant is a collective Servant, not a single individual. The Hebrew word "lamoh - (lamed-mem-vav) ", when used in our Scriptures, always means "to them" never "to him" and may be found, for example, in Psalm 99:7 - "They kept his testimonies, and the statute that He gave to them."

53:9 "His grave was assigned with wicked men." See Ez. 37:11-14, wherein Israel is described as "cut off" and God promises to open its "graves" and bring Israel back into its own land. Other examples of figurative deaths include Ex. 10:17; 2 Sam. 9:8; 2 Sam. 16:9.

53:9 "And with the rich in his deaths." Perhaps King James should have changed the original Hebrew, which the plural "deaths" makes clear that we are dealing with a collective Servant, i.e., Israel, which will "come to life" when the exile ends (Ez. 37:14).

53:9 "He had done no violence." See Matt. 21:12; Mk. 11:15-16; Lk. 19:45; Lk. 19:27; Matt. 10:34 and Lk. 12:51; then judge for yourself whether this passage is truly consistent with the New Testament account of Jesus.

53:10 "He shall see his seed." The Hebrew word for "seed", used in this verse, always refers to physical descendants in our Jewish Scriptures. See, e.g., Gen. 12:7; Gen. 15:13; Gen. 46:6; Ex. 28:43. A different word, generally translated as "sons", is used to refer to spiritual descendants (see Deut. 14:1, e.g.).

53:10 "He will prolong his days." Not only did Jesus die young, but how could the days be prolonged of someone who is alleged to be God?

53:11 "With his knowledge the righteous one, my Servant, will cause many to be just." Note again the correct translation: the Servant will cause many to be just, he will not "justify the many." The Jewish mission is to serve as a "light to the nations" which will ultimately lead the world to a knowledge of the one true God, this both by example (Deut. 4:5-8; Zech. 8:23) and by instructing the nations in God's Law (Isa. 2:3-4; Micah 4:2-3).

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

 

[bibleberean]

The apostles and prophets of the New Testament would still be jews if they agreed with the apostate Jew of today.

The KJB is fine.

The sins and iniquities of us all have not been laid on Israel. They are sinners too. The nation will repent and turn to the Saviour.


Zechariah 12:8-12 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;

Has Israel repented? Has God sought to destroy all the nations that have come against Jerusalem?

53:7 "He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth." Note that in the prior chapter (Isa. 52), Israel is said to have been oppressed and taken away without cause (52:4-5). A similar theme is developed in Psalm 44, wherein King David speaks of Israel's faithfulness even in the face of gentile oppression (44:17- 18) and describes Israel as "sheep to be slaughtered" in the midst of the unfaithful gentile nations (44:22,11).

Israel is a tracherous harlot. She is not faithful but sinful.

Isaiah 1:1-10 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment. Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city. Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

Jesus said unto this unrepentant nation...

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Matthew 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Matthew 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Jesus was rejected because he did not tickle the ears of this sinful nation. He came to call them to repentance and all they could do then is what they do now. Make excuses.

John 9:26-27 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?

John 9:28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.

We don't see a loved Israel today. Jerusalem will yet be punished and judged and Jesus will return to defend and rescue her.

Jeremiah 46:27-28 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid. Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

The Messiah rescues Israel.

DavidDavid,

If you don't believe in the New Testament it is impossible to be a "born again Christian".

2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

We are not going to follow the teachings of apostates and frauds... :D

 

[Orthodox Christian]

again we havent even touched on the generation count in matthew 1, Its been several posts about this, but to counter your argument about Isaiah 53......

We could also talk about many problems with the Jewish scripures, most notably the conflicting accounts in Genesis, the use of the name YHWH, coming from the Chaldean war cult, the use of the sybmbol of Dagon (mogen David), and so forth. If one choses to take the historicist position with Christianity in defense of Judaism, then one must take the same approach with Judaism- and guess what- same problems.

First youre using a christian bible for your prophecy, you should use the hebrew original......

You are absolutely right, I am using the "Christian Bible"- including the Septuagint for Old Covenant readings. It includes those historical bits which include the origin of Chanukah- now practiced by Jews, but not found in their Masoretic text.

The text of the Masoretes, ca 500 CE, is your "Hebrew original."

The Rabbis at Yahvneh rejected the Septuagint and those writings which were not in Hebrew- a language which was not used in their day (they were speaking Aramaic also). But in order to preserve their nation and their religion, they dispatched with the impure 'Hellenic' influences. I understand their motive, but their intent does nto sacrilize their actions or the resulting faith premise.

In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions

you fail to mention they weren't written in codice, but in scroll form. Any other pedantics you wish to toss my way?

and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.

52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?

52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

Let me stop you before you go any further with you ALLEGORICAL understanding of this section of scripture. I know the Jewish apologetic, please don't waste our time with further pedantry. I made the point that there are two ways of interpreting the symbolism of Isaiah 53. You find greater appeal in the Jewish explanation- go be a Jew then. I say that without rancor or disrespect, I am only pointing out that this is a matter of faith on both sides, not "proof."

I for one find that the buzz among the nations regarding the Jews is "why do they enslave Palestinians and bulldoze their homes." The buzz among the nations regarding Jesus has led to their conversion to the worship of the one true God.

But hey, the servant who sets up a secular kingdom vs the servant who leads billions into the worship of Elohim- I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the best interpretation of that section.

52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high

.
Yep, sounds just like Zionist Israel. :roll:

53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

Yeah, except for the part where He was rejected by the mob who wanted a conquering king. They then called for his lynching, and He was indeed rejected and despised of men, as He was also in the Roman Empire up through 313 AD. He is still despised by many today, without cause. The same can be said for the Jews- except in the last 50 years, they've given significant cause to despise the Zionists.

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world (???How so???) and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

Wow- now there is some liberal interpretation of text.. The Jews have "bore the sins of the world?" How so? God allowed them to be exiled and dispersed on numerous occasions because of their harlotry. The majority of the Rabbinic Jews living in Israel are atheist/agnostic/secular. The last time the tribes were exiled was when they rejected His Son, and the Temple was destroyed. Yet God does not end or 'replace' His covenant people. Paul addresses this in depth in Romans 9-11.

What becomes clear is that you view the Rabbinic interpretation of Jewish scriptures as authorative, and reject the interpretation of the Apostles. I hope you enjoy the taste of gefilte, because it would appear to be your destiny. Best wishes with that.

 

[einstein]

messiah

Isaiah 53 deals with the righteous remnant of Israel. It has nothing to do with the modern state of Israel, notwithstanding that with the advent of the messianic age, the Jewish belief is that there will be a restoration of all and the whole world will come to recognize Hashem as the supreme creator. When time permits I will posting further wrt to this passage. I intend to show a process of identification between the "identified servant" and the "unidentified servant" and will be asking for comments.BTW your one sided comments which pointedly ignore the mass terrorist murders of innocent civilians which always preceed the bulldozings demonstrate your true Jew-hating sentiments.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

again we havent even touched on the generation count in matthew 1, Its been several posts about this, but to counter your argument about Isaiah 53......

We could also talk about many problems with the Jewish scripures, most notably the conflicting accounts in Genesis, the use of the name YHWH, coming from the Chaldean war cult, the use of the sybmbol of Dagon (mogen David), and so forth. If one choses to take the historicist position with Christianity in defense of Judaism, then one must take the same approach with Judaism- and guess what- same problems.

First youre using a christian bible for your prophecy, you should use the hebrew original......

You are absolutely right, I am using the "Christian Bible"- including the Septuagint for Old Covenant readings. It includes those historical bits which include the origin of Chanukah- now practiced by Jews, but not found in their Masoretic text.

The text of the Masoretes, ca 500 CE, is your "Hebrew original."

The Rabbis at Yahvneh rejected the Septuagint and those writings which were not in Hebrew- a language which was not used in their day (they were speaking Aramaic also). But in order to preserve their nation and their religion, they dispatched with the impure 'Hellenic' influences. I understand their motive, but their intent does nto sacrilize their actions or the resulting faith premise.

In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions

you fail to mention they weren't written in codice, but in scroll form. Any other pedantics you wish to toss my way?

and Jew and Christian alike agree that chapter 53 is actually a continuation of the prophecy which begins at 52:13. Accordingly, our analysis must begin at that verse.

52:13 "Behold, My servant will prosper." Israel in the singular is called God's servant throughout Isaiah, both explicitly (Isa. 41:8-9; 44:1-2; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3) and implicitly (Isa. 42:19-20; 43:10) - the Messiah is not. Other references to Israel as God's servant include Jer. 30:10 (note that in Jer. 30:17, the servant Israel is regarded by the nations as an outcast, forsaken by God, as in Isa. 53:4); Jer. 46:27-28; Ps. 136:22; Lk. 1:54. ALSO: Given the Christian view that Jesus is God, is God His own servant?

52:15 - 53:1 "So shall he (the servant) startle many nations, the kings will stand speechless; For that which had not been told them they shall see and that which they had not heard shall they ponder. Who would believe what we have heard?" Quite clearly, the nations and their kings will be amazed at what happens to the "servant of the L-rd," and they will say "who would believe what we have heard?". 52:15 tells us explicitly that it is the nations of the world, the gentiles, who are doing the talking in Isaiah 53. See, also, Micah 7:12-17, which speaks of the nations' astonishment when the Jewish people again blossom in the Messianic age.

Let me stop you before you go any further with you ALLEGORICAL understanding of this section of scripture. I know the Jewish apologetic, please don't waste our time with further pedantry. I made the point that there are two ways of interpreting the symbolism of Isaiah 53. You find greater appeal in the Jewish explanation- go be a Jew then. I say that without rancor or disrespect, I am only pointing out that this is a matter of faith on both sides, not "proof."

I for one find that the buzz among the nations regarding the Jews is "why do they enslave Palestinians and bulldoze their homes." The buzz among the nations regarding Jesus has led to their conversion to the worship of the one true God.

But hey, the servant who sets up a secular kingdom vs the servant who leads billions into the worship of Elohim- I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the best interpretation of that section.

52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal wisely, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high

.
Yep, sounds just like Zionist Israel. :roll:

53:3 "Despised and rejected of men." While this is clearly applicable to Israel (see Isa. 60:15; Ps. 44:13-14), it cannot be reconciled with the New Testament account of Jesus, a man who was supposedly "praised by all" (Lk. 4:14-15) and followed by multitudes (Matt. 4:25), who would later acclaim him as a prophet upon his triumphal entry into Jerusalem (Matt. 21:9-11). Even as he was taken to be crucified, a multitude bemoaned his fate (Lk. 23:27). Jesus had to be taken by stealth, as the rulers feared "a riot of the people" (Mk. 14:1-2).

Yeah, except for the part where He was rejected by the mob who wanted a conquering king. They then called for his lynching, and He was indeed rejected and despised of men, as He was also in the Roman Empire up through 313 AD. He is still despised by many today, without cause. The same can be said for the Jews- except in the last 50 years, they've given significant cause to despise the Zionists.

53:12 "Therefore, I will divide a portion to him with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty." If Jesus is God, does the idea of reward have any meaning? Is it not rather the Jewish people - who righteously bore the sins of the world (???How so???) and yet remained faithful to God (Ps. 44) - who will be rewarded, and this in the manner described more fully in Isaiah chapters 52 and 54?

Wow- now there is some liberal interpretation of text.. The Jews have "bore the sins of the world?" How so? God allowed them to be exiled and dispersed on numerous occasions because of their harlotry. The majority of the Rabbinic Jews living in Israel are atheist/agnostic/secular. The last time the tribes were exiled was when they rejected His Son, and the Temple was destroyed. Yet God does not end or 'replace' His covenant people. Paul addresses this in depth in Romans 9-11.

What becomes clear is that you view the Rabbinic interpretation of Jewish scriptures as authorative, and reject the interpretation of the Apostles. I hope you enjoy the taste of gefilte, because it would appear to be your destiny. Best wishes with that.

 

[bibleberean]

According to the arguments of the apostates there are no scriptures that point to the coming Messiah.

Exodus 12:1-14 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

Christ is the Lamb and the passover... This pointed to the coming death and shed blood of Christ.

The deliverer the Holy one of Israel!

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 Peter 1:17-19 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

The Jews remain blind except for the Jews who become converts...

2 Corinthians 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2 Corinthians 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Is it any wonder that the Jews of today mistranslate the scriptures in an effort to prove that Jesus is not their King or Saviour?

There is a day coming when Israel will turn to Christ. :D

2 Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.


The whole issue is about who do you believe. Were the Jewish apostles and prophets so stupid that they thought they could get away with mistranslating the scriptures because they thought the scribes and chief priests wouldn't notice? ;-)

 

[einstein]

messiah

Bad example. The paschal lamb was not offered for the removal of sin. It was a festive or commemorative offering. BTW, was Jesus' blood ever placed on the doorpost and lintel of anything?

 

[bibleberean]

Re: messiah

Bad example. The paschal lamb was not offered for the removal of sin. It was a festive or commemorative offering. BTW, was Jesus' blood ever placed on the doorpost and lintel of anything?

Hebrews 10:1-10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The doorposts were a picture of the covering that the blood of Jesus would do. Death is swallowe up through Christ our Passover. :angel:

 

[bibleberean]

Great Among the Gentiles
Author: Dave Hunt
Publication Date: 12/1/1998


http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter ... /4526.aspx


"...Even more disconcerting to the Jews was the way this would come about through Gentiles believing in the Messiah! The prophets repeatedly declared that it would be through the Messiah that the Gentiles would come to know God. That truth was already innate in God's amazing promise to Abraham when He called him from Ur of the Chaldees: "in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed" (Gn 12:3). That promise could only be fulfilled through the Messiah's descent from Abraham and Gentiles believing in Him.

Of all the prophets, Isaiah makes most clear the connection between the Messiah, Jehovah's "servant," and God's name becoming great among the Gentiles. Interestingly, the book of Isaiah, recovered with the Dead Sea scrolls, is among the most ancient Old Testament manuscripts we have. Contrary to expectation, that manuscript turned out to be the same text that was already in our Bible. Housed in its own special museum in Jerusalem, the Isaiah scroll is proof that we have the exact words that God inspired Isaiah to write.

In Isaiah 49:6 we see that Jehovah's servant (undoubtedly the Messiah) who is called "to raise up the tribes of Jacob" will also be "a light to the Gentiles... [and] salvation unto the end of the earth." Remarkable! God's light comes to the Gentiles as salvationobviously through the Savior, whom Jehovah himself claims to be: "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour" (Is 43:11; 45:15; 49:26; 60:16; Hos 13:4, etc.). Isaiah explains it further:


Behold, my servant...in whom my soul delighteth...he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles...and the isles [see Gn 10:5, "the isles of the Gentiles"] shall wait for his law.... I the Lord...[will] give thee ...for a light of the Gentiles..." (Is 42:1,4,6).

"Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel" (Is 7:14).


Immanuel means "God with us." The Messiah is God himself and thus bears God's name. Isaiah makes it even more clear that the Messiah is God coming into the world as a man, which can only be through a virgin birth: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David..." (9:6); i.e., this can only be the Messiah who will rule Israel.

Isaiah thus declares that the Messiah, Jehovah's "servant," will be "The mighty God, The everlasting Father" born into this world and that God's name will become great among the Gentiles as they believe that He is the Savior of the world. Even more astonishing, the Messiah becomes the Savior of mankind and brings that salvation to the Gentiles by virtue of His own people rejecting Him. As a result of that rejection, He dies for the sins of the whole world:


...all the ends of the earth [i.e., Gentiles] shall see the salvation of our God....Behold, my servant...his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men [i.e., from his suffering for our salvation]....So shall he sprinkle many nations....(Is52:10, 13-15)

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows...we [Israel] hid...our faces from him;....But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:...and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all...mak[ing] his soul an offering for sin....(Is 53:3-6, 2, 10)


The means by which the Gentiles will know and honor the name of Jehovah/Jahweh through the Messiah is clearly through the salvation the Messiah brings. After describing the Crucifixion, David declares, "All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord" (Ps 22:27). So it would be through the Crucifixion that multitudes all over the world would "turn unto the Lord" and God's name would be great among the Gentiles.

The very name of Jesus means "Jehovah saves." At His birth, the angel said, "Thou shalt call His name jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins" (Mt 1:21). What language is this! Call Him "Jehovah saves," for He shall save His people from their sins." He can only be Jehovah!

Jesus the Messiah, who said, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father...I and my Father are one" (Jn 10:30; 14:9), was in perfect harmony with the Old Testament Hebrew prophets when He told His disciples, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mk 16:15). It is through the gospel of Jesus Christ and the church which He established that God's name has become "great among the Gentiles"!

And it is through pointing to the prophecies and their undeniable fulfillment in Jesus Christ that we are to preach the gospel of God's grace and thereby bring salvation to the ends of the earth. Prophecies such as this should so fill our hearts with wonder, joy and confidence that the good news of the gospel literally overflows from us to those we meet! May it be so." TBC

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: messiah

Bad example. The paschal lamb was not offered for the removal of sin. It was a festive or commemorative offering. BTW, was Jesus' blood ever placed on the doorpost and lintel of anything?

No, His blood was poured on the earth, so that every household on earth has access to the blood- not just Jewish dwellings.

Metaphorically, and as a type, His blood was sprinkled in the heavenly sanctuary as well.

Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

The Paschal Lamb is consumed, and is the very image of the institution of the Eucharist, aka Lord's Supper. Each Jew was to do this symbolically in honor of the Passover. There was a Lamb slain and blood applied to communicate to the angel of death to pass over their house.

The blood on the lintel signified obedience in action. You will note that the Jews did the applying of blood once, not yearly.It is their obedience that keeps the Passover. Likewise, it is by faith in action that the Christian keeps the Passover.

In like fashion, Christ was a Lamb slain, to be consumed. Yes, this is all metaphorical, as was the original paschal covenant. Why a lamb? It is a symbol. I'm certain that Jews do not believe the Lamb's blood had magical qualities. :roll:

Yet another type exists, which has not been dealt with: The practice of laying hands on the sheep or goat (KJV: 'scapegoat') and laying the sins of the people upon the goat, thereafter sending it out into the desert...ie, the realm of darkness and demonic powers.

Or as it is written

And one of them, [named] Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

and

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.

So they agreed that He should die for the people.

 

[bibleberean]

Good Post OC. :smt023

 

[bibleberean]

Great Among the Gentiles
Author: Dave Hunt
Publication Date: 12/1/1998


For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen [nations], saith the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 1:11


"We have often pointed out in these pages that prophecy comprises nearly one-third of the Bible. Though so neglected by most of the church, prophecy is, in fact, the cornerstone of Scripture. In Isaiah 42:8-9, 46:9-10, 48:5 and many other places God declares that He will prove His existence and vindicate His Word by telling, through His prophets, what will happen in the future and watching over history to make certain that it does.

To most Christians, prophecy involves "last days" events. Yet most biblical prophecies have already been fulfilled. These are world-shaking and history-making events foretold centuries and even thousands of years in advanceand their fulfillment has been witnessed by the entire world.

No one can honestly be an atheist or agnostic in view of the evidence Scripture provides. Prophecy fulfilled provides absolute proof that the Bible is God's Word, that the Jews are His chosen people and the land of Israel belongs to them, and that Jesus Christ is Israel's Messiah and the true and only Savior of sinners (Jew or Gentile).

There are simple and often overlooked prophecies such as the declaration 3,500 years ago that the Jews would keep the Passover forever (Ex 12:14). The prophets of the goddess Vesta in Rome also swore that the sacred fires tended by the Vestal Virgins would burn forever; and the Zoroastrian prophets declared that the sacred fires in Persia would never go out. Neither remain, but the Passover is still observed, even by millions of Jews who do not believe in God or the Bible.

Then there are such well-known prophecies as Daniel 9:24-25, which foretold that "the coming of Messiah" would occur 69 weeks of years (483) after the command to rebuild Jerusalem. That command was given 100 years later to Nehemiah (Neh 2:1) by Artaxerxes Longimanus on Nisan 1, 445 b.c. And 483 years later, to the very day (by the Jewish and Babylonian calendars of 360 days), Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that donkey and was hailed by multitudes as the Messiah (exactly as foretold in Zechariah 9:9) and then "cut off" as Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53 had foretold. He was crucified, as David prophesied (Ps 22:14-18) long before crucifixion was even known. His rejection by Israel was followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as both Daniel (9:26) and Jesus (Mt 24:2) prophesied.

Jews who are still hoping for their Messiah to come to Jerusalem must face the fact that we have passed the prophesied time of His coming by nearly 2,000 years. The undeniable historical fact is that these events have already taken place, exactly as prophesied.

Malachi 1:11, quoted above, is another powerful prophecy the fulfillment of which is one of the most amazing and inspiring and undeniable in the entire Bible. Indeed, this newsletter itself and the fact that you are reading it is part of the fulfillment of this astounding prophecy.

Malachi was the last prophet to speak exclusively to Israel. Even 1 Maccabees 9:27 and 14:41 confirm that "prophets [had] ceased to appear among the people." Therefore 1 and 2 Maccabees could not have been inspired by God and consequently were not part of Scripture. Thus, Roman Catholicism, which attempts to justify purgatory and prayers for the dead from 2 Maccabees 12:45, is in grave error.

After Malachi, the next prophets of God to arise would speak both to Jews and Gentiles. The latter would hear and heed God's voice, while the Jews would continue to disobey and to pervert the Word of God. So said Israel's prophets.

About 500 years of silence followed Malachi before God sent another prophet, John the Baptist, to introduce the Messiah to His people and to the world, as Isaiah had foretold (Is 40:3). As Malachi declared (Mal 4:5) and as the New Testament confirmed, John came in the "spirit and power of Elijah" (Mt 11:14; 17:11-12; Mk 9:12-13; Lk 1:17), not as his reincarnation, as New Agers claim. Elijah, having been taken bodily alive into heaven (2 Kgs 2:11) and appearing bodily with Moses to speak with Jesus as witnessed by three disciples (Mt 17:3), could hardly have been reincarnated into another body as John the Baptist.

Notice the setting for this verse in Malachi: Israel has sunk so deeply into apostasy that God says, "I have no pleasure in you...neither will I accept an offering at your hand" (1:10). They have "polluted" the Temple worship (1:12); they have disobeyed His commands repeatedly, even from the very beginning (3:7); they offer unacceptable sacrifices (1:14); and the priests won't even shut a door without a fee (1:10). Worst of all, God indicts Israel with despising His Holy name (1:6, 2:2).

In this context God says, "From the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles..." (Mal 1:11). What a shock that statement must have been to the Jews! This contradicted everything they believed! They were a chosen people who worshiped the true God, whereas the nations around them all worshiped false gods:


Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the Lord, and...I will take you to me for a people, and...ye shall know that I am the Lord your God....(Ex 6:6-7)

The Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. (Dt 7:6)

For all the gods of the nations are idols....(Ps 96:5)


How, then, could God's name become great among the Gentiles? That prophecy must have stunned the rabbis. Even the disciples couldn't believe that the gospel was to go to the Gentiles. God had to speak to Peter in a vision and take him into a Gentile house (Acts 10), where He had prepared hearts to receive the gospel of Christ, in order for Peter to see that the Gentiles as well as Jews were to be in the church. Even then, the other church leaders at that time criticized Peter for having anything to do with Gentiles (Acts11:1-3).

Let's recap the situation in Malachi's day to see how remarkable this prophecy was. Israel, God's chosen people, was indicted with being unfaithful to Him, the only true God, and with having repeatedly rebelled against Him and His laws. He had sent His prophets, "rising up early and sending them, saying [to Israel]...amend your doings, and go not after other gods," but Israel continued in disobedience (Jer 35:15, etc.). And now, Malachi was the last prophet, and his message was shocking: the God of Israel, to whom they had been so unfaithful, would be known among the Gentile nations from one end of the world to the otherand not through them!

The language is clear and powerful. There would not be a small enclave among the Gentiles who would know Jehovah, a few converts of Israeli evangelists, but many millions from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same! That astonishing prophecy, so unbelievable to the Jews, has come to pass. There is no explaining away the fact that approximately 1.8 billion Gentiles in every part of this earth now claim to believe in the "God of Abraham...Isaac and... Jacob" (Ex 3:6; Mt 22:32, etc.).

Even before Malachi made it so clear, other Israeli prophets had already declared that this would happen. Referring to the God of Israel, Psalms 22:27 declares that "all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee." Jewish apologists who do not want to admit that the God of Israel whom they have dishonored is truly known by millions of Gentiles try to explain away this and the many other similar prophecies by arguing that they refer to the millennial reign of the Messiah. It is true that during the Millennium "every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem [at Armageddon] shall even go up from year to year [to Jerusalem] to worship the King, the Lord of hosts..." (Zec 14:16). Yet the Scriptures make it clear that long before this time millions of Gentiles will truly know the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

http://www.thebereancall.org/Newsletter ... /4526.aspx

Witnessing info to lost Jews...

God bless Israel! :D

 

[DivineNames]

When you repent and believe God will give you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that you too can understand the scriptures.

Good. You have claimed to understand how the verses relate to Jesus, as you are helped out by the holy spirit.

If this is true, then explain how the verses relate to Jesus.

Are you going to explain then? Perhaps the holy spirit hasn't actually helped you to understand the verses?

 

[einstein]

malachi

Mal 1:11:..".gadol sh'mee bahgoyim..." means "My Name IS great among the nations". In Hebrew the present tense verb "to be" is silent. That's why Immanuel (emmanu'el) means "God IS with us" (Isaiah's reassuring sign in face of Israel and Syria) NOT "God with us" suggesting the incarnation. (Strictly for the benefit of those who dare to challenge the orthodox Christian misrepresentations.)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Re: malachi

Mal 1:11:..".gadol sh'mee bahgoyim..." means "My Name IS great among the nations". In Hebrew the present tense verb "to be" is silent. That's why Immanuel (emmanu'el) means "God IS with us" (Isaiah's reassuring sign in face of Israel and Syria) NOT "God with us" suggesting the incarnation. (Strictly for the benefit of those who dare to challenge the orthodox Christian misrepresentations.)

Orthodox and orthodox Christian understanding is that God IS, not WAS, with us. Jesus said "I will never leave nor forsake you." Revelation states "and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God."

Jesus never left, He simply 'disappeared into the cloud(nephos, same word used in Hebrews 12:1 describing the crowd of witnesses). His return is not really as much return as it is appearing (parousia=presence).

Any other challenges to so-called "orthodox Christian misrepresentation" should be based in orthodox Christian position- not the misrepresentation of same. :wink:
Have a nice day.

 

[DivineNames]

Great Among the Gentiles
Author: Dave Hunt
Publication Date: 12/1/1998

Then there are such well-known prophecies as Daniel 9:24-25, which foretold that "the coming of Messiah" would occur 69 weeks of years (483) after the command to rebuild Jerusalem. That command was given 100 years later to Nehemiah (Neh 2:1) by Artaxerxes Longimanus on Nisan 1, 445 b.c. And 483 years later, to the very day (by the Jewish and Babylonian calendars of 360 days), Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that donkey and was hailed by multitudes as the Messiah (exactly as foretold in Zechariah 9:9) and then "cut off" as Daniel 9:26 and Isaiah 53 had foretold. He was crucified, as David prophesied (Ps 22:14-18) long before crucifixion was even known. His rejection by Israel was followed by the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as both Daniel (9:26) and Jesus (Mt 24:2) prophesied.

I asked about this on the "Jews for Judaism" forums. One reply-

"Total nonsense.

This 360 day year gambit was yet another Xian attempt to forcefit Daniel's 70 septats into the timing for Jsus. The only problem is that Judaism has NEVER used a 360 day year.

The Jewish calendar uses a combination of lunar and solar methods. The months work on the lunar patterns, and the years must coincide with the solar system. Jewish calendars add an extra month every three years or so. Using the real Jewish method and the Xian timing (which is wrong to start with, but we'll use it to make a point) take 445 BCE plus 483 years (69 X 7) and you wind up at 38 CE, long after even Xians say Jsus died.

Daniel speaks of two time frames (7 weeks and 62 weeks) and 2 anointed ones (messiahs). The KJV puts in "the" in front of the word "messiah" but there is no "the" in the Hebrew. More inventive translating on the part of the KJV.

Daniel says one anointed one will come after 7 weeks; and the city (Jerusalem) will remain built for 62 weeks, and after the 62 weeks, (verse 26) it will be destroyed.

BTW Daniel also says the second messiah will be so horrible he'll be spiritually cut off from G-d and the Jewish nation. Do you think Jsus was that horrible?" (sophiee)

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/vi ... 2&start=90

 

[DivineNames]

Re: messiah

There is a problem with the fact that Jesus who is God's only begotten Son can sit on the throne of Israel?

Is it not God who chose Israel who raises up kings and brings them down?

Do you want a God that says one thing and then does another?

A God like that may say Christians are going to heaven, but he may do different... :D