How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[Solo]

For those that are not blinded to the truth of God... Over 300 Messianic Prophecies

What are the Messianic prophecies that Jews would accept as genuine? (and when I say 'Jews', I don't mean converts to Christianity...)

How many of these prophecies did Jesus fulfill?


There is 1 that he could have done- entering Jerusalem on a donkey. Of course, we don't know if he really did that. Even if he did, this one prophecy fulfillment by itself is meaningless.

So, are there any more?

All of the prophecies point to Jesus as being the Messiah. All of the Jews that have had their eyes and ears opened to the truth have been born again and are now believers; those that haven't had their eyes and ears open to God's truth continue on their path of unbelief. God has given his truth to all those who repent and believe.

If you have time to continue to mock and deride the Word of God, then you have time to investigate all of the Messianic prophecies. I gave you a good list to start. Let me know when you have completely reviewed all of them. If you decide not to, then don't waste my time with your trivial mockings.

 

[Guest]

What part of I am a born again christian do you guys not understand, Jesus became Lord in 1996, I gave my life to him and walked in mercy and love, but after many years and years of studing the bible and other religions I have many doubts. Dont give me this indwelt holy spirit will open my eyes bullcrap, just respond to the objections. For years I would believe everything, but in the back of my mind, it was troublesome. Finally after years of the troubling points of the bible and studing judiasm, I am more doubtful. If you christians are to afarid to answer logically and stop talking about god opening eyes, then just admit you cant answer the objections.

 

[Solo]

I said it has been said that a rooster can fulfill 70 prophecies, but I dont know of any place that it says it exactly. The point is that many of the prophecies can be fulfilled by anyone.

here is a website to a christain bible that translates the hebrew word almah as young woman in isiaih 7:14
http://www.devotions.net/bible/00bible.htm

this is a big hit to christainity and its claim that the prophecy had to do with virgin. I have studied the bible to defend christainity for years, but have come acroiss many problems with the NT.

again I ask count how many generations are from abraham to christ in matthews geneeology. Matthew states 42, please post how many you count? I just started with matthew and only part of matthew to show the problems with the NT, please answer the objections and stop trying to change the subject and hide from the problems it contains. Comon guys stop hiding and answer the questions.

Well then if you do not know whether the rooster can truly fulfill 70 Messianic prophecies then you should not make such a ridiculous claim.
Also if anyone can fill many of the prophesies, then show me one who can fulfill all of them. Jesus fulfills all of the prophesies. If he doesn't then the god that you worship is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

As far as your trivial questions pertaining to the virgin birth, and the geneology of Jesus; there is much on the internet that you can pick and choose from. I am convinced that Jesus is the Messiah, and I am convinced that Jesus is the Son of God from the virgin birth, and I am convinced that the geneology of Jesus as recorded in Matthew and Luke show his descent from Abraham and David. So I do not have a problem with my belief as you have had. Perhaps one day you will wake up to the fact that you really were not born again, when you thought you were, or you were born again and you walked away to the doctrines of devils. The Bible is pretty explicit in those things, and you may want to study it with the guidance of the Holy Spirit next time.

 

[Guest]

why do my posts keep getting deleteing, if you cant give answers and have to delete my posts, it goes to show that christainity can bash all other religions but cant defend itself with its many inconsistencies, if you want to ban me because you cant defend your faith then please do it. but im sure other christians who read this want to stregthen there faith and read the esponses to the arguments set forth towards christainity.

 

[DivineNames]

When you repent and believe God will give you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that you too can understand the scriptures.

Good. You have claimed to understand how the verses relate to Jesus, as you are helped out by the holy spirit.

If this is true, then explain how the verses relate to Jesus.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

The book of Matthew doesn't have any problems; you have problems but Matthew is fine.

It "doesn't have any problems" to those whose statement of faith requires them to believe it doesn't (or can't) have any problems. This is the same reason committed moslems believe the Koran doesn't have any problems.

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey HE (the son just mentioned in context) shall eat, that HE (the same son just mentioned in context) may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before THE CHILD (same child just mentioned in context) shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings"

In order to believe that the son/child in the 2nd and 3rd verses of this passage is not the same child just mentioned in the first, or that the 2nd and 3rd verses refer to "any child", and not to the child in the first verse, and that the child in the first verse is someone who will born 700 years later than the situation at hand ("two kings") and therefore would have nothing to do with the situation being addressed in the passage - in order to prepose all this in order to justify one's religious viewpoint, that one would have to be dishonest or braindead. If any of you found a similar prophecy in another "Holy Book" such as the Koran, with an obviously mistaken claimed fulfillment such as the Matthew quote from Isaiah, you would be the first to point out that the supposed fulfillment was fraudulent. You would approach the situation logically and honestly, because it appeared in a book you disavow. But because it occurs in your NT, you cannot apply the same rules of logical, honest exegesis, because it would be self-incriminating to the Christian religion.

That's what this whole thing's about.

When you repent and believe God will give you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that you too can understand the scriptures. Until then you will continue on your path of rebellion towards the creator God. You will take your lumps whatever they may be when he judges you. No amount of scripture will prove anything to you because you are an unbeliever. Keep walking the path that I was saved off of, and you can do as the ole boy in Luke 16 does.

I have already walked the path you are on now - and don't tell me I wasn't really a Christian to begin with because I was probably more of a Christian than you are...

I handed out tracks on street corners and was abused for it

my family thought I was nuts

my unbelieving friends cursed me

I gave $100 to charity when all I had in the bank was $100

I got to the point where I could give the chapter and verse for practically any quote from the Pauline epistles

I spent 100% of my time involved in bible study, meetings, or ministering, and this was for years.

I also told people that they couldn't understand the things of the Spirit unless they first repented and believed. Then by and by, started to realize that it was I who had taken many things for granted regarding the faith. When I honestly faced the type of issues which are being discussed in this thread it occured to me that I might have been "sold a bill of goods". This is the point which you have not arrived at yet. Don't give me the condescending attitude that Christians have some sort of esoteric knowledge that we will only receive if we believe first - been there, done that. If God doesn't want us to use our brains why did he give us them? The "spiritual understanding" that you allude to is actually the blindness that you accuse others of. All you can respond with, in the face of the fact that the above quote must, in all honest exegesis, be referring to the same child, which, for several obvious reasons, cannot be Jesus, is to point to some hidden wisdom by which it does :roll: coupled with yet another not so veiled threat of judgement against those who ask too many questions. Your whole position is clearly cultic. This is exactly the propoganda that (smaller) cults employ. They offer esoteric wisdom/knowledge and if you don't "get it", you're just not one if the "chosen". Their faith doesn't hold up under scrutiny, but if you leave "the fold" because of that realization they'll say you "never really were one of them". If you aren't one of them, or were but left, they'll say you are under eternal judgement. Your responses and attitude towards honest examination of the claims of your faith seem to be exactly the same :evil:

 

[DivineNames]

For those that are not blinded to the truth of God... Over 300 Messianic Prophecies

What are the Messianic prophecies that Jews would accept as genuine? (and when I say 'Jews', I don't mean converts to Christianity...)

How many of these prophecies did Jesus fulfill?


There is 1 that he could have done- entering Jerusalem on a donkey. Of course, we don't know if he really did that. Even if he did, this one prophecy fulfillment by itself is meaningless.

So, are there any more?

All of the prophecies point to Jesus as being the Messiah. All of the Jews that have had their eyes and ears opened to the truth have been born again and are now believers; those that haven't had their eyes and ears open to God's truth continue on their path of unbelief. God has given his truth to all those who repent and believe.

If you have time to continue to mock and deride the Word of God, then you have time to investigate all of the Messianic prophecies. I gave you a good list to start. Let me know when you have completely reviewed all of them. If you decide not to, then don't waste my time with your trivial mockings.

You can see the question that I am asking, how many Messianic prophecies (that Jews would accept as genuine) did Jesus fulfill?

You didn't try to answer that question, so its you that is wasting time.

How many did Jesus fulfill? I am guessing he did next to nothing. Perhaps someone knows better?

 

[DivineNames]

but if you leave "the fold" because of that realization they'll say you "never really were one of them".

This obviously appears to be a defence mechanism-

"we don't have to worry that those people rejected what we believe, because those people never really had true belief in the first place"

 

[Guest]

more of a christian that you...

Wow this is really judging, according to scripture no one is suppsoed to claim to be more of chirstian than anyone else, we are the same, children of god. Paul tried to say he was more of a christian than the apostles and listed his reasons, but also said I must nuts saying this. This contradicts everything Jesus preached. but was christianity from jesus or paul?

 

[Guest]

more of a christian that you...

Wow this is really judging, according to scripture no one is suppsoed to claim to be more of chirstian than anyone else, we are the same, children of god. Paul tried to say he was more of a christian than the apostles and listed his reasons, but also said I must nuts saying this. This contradicts everything Jesus preached. but was christianity from jesus or paul?

again non the objections are being answered, comon defend the faith if you so dare from these objections put forth, you can easily defend against moroms, muslims, witness, new age movement, but when it comes to judaism and problens with the NT no answers can be heard.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

There are only several big messianic prophecies that the Jews look forward to, like rebuilding the temple, ushering in world peace, etc. Funny enough, these are the fulfillments that Christians attribute to the 2nd coming. But would the Christians here stop and honestly consider how suspicious this all sounds to a Jew?

CHRISTIAN: Jesus is the Messiah because he fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies.

JEW: What about rebuilding the temple, etc?

CHRISTIAN: Oh, he'll do that when he returns

If you'll place yourself in "Jewish shoes" for a moment can you imagine how unconvincing this all is? How can you expect them to believe that Jesus fulfilled (past tense) the Messianic prophecies when he hasn't yet? This is like if there were prophecies that a great leader would arise in France and conquer Russia and one was to claim that leader was Napolean and when it was pointed out that Napolean failed to conquer Russia the devotee says - "He'll accomplish that when he comes back down to earth on the clouds of heaven" :roll:

(My point here is not to claim Jesus was not the Messiah, or that he will not come back to fulfill the rest of what the Messiah is supposed to, but to point out how transparent this claim sounds to a Jew, in keeping with the topic of the thread what do we say to Jews that do not believe Jesus was the Messiah?

 

[DivineNames]

There are only several big messianic prophecies that the Jews look forward to, like rebuilding the temple, ushering in world peace, etc. Funny enough, these are the fulfillments that Christians attribute to the 2nd coming. But would the Christians here stop and honestly consider how suspicious this all sounds to a Jew?

The problem with the above prophecies, is that the Gospel writers couldn't lie and say he did them, because he obviously didn't.

What they could do (perhaps? ) is make up lots of fake prophecy fulfillment. And the genuine Messianic prophecies are things Christians will say Jesus will do "when he comes back"...

 

[Guest]

I have post redarding the rooster prophecies but am waiting on approval from the website team, so dont i have ducked it, but if you want to emnail me and get it
dgolestani@cox.net

and i will send you the link, investigate it for yourself.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

more of a christian that you...

Wow this is really judging, according to scripture no one is suppsoed to claim to be more of chirstian than anyone else, we are the same, children of god

The reason I say that is because I know he will claim I never was a Christian.

 

[bibleberean]

Jesus suffered and died on the cross for the sins of the world. He came as the suffering Messiah the first time. He will return as King when He returns again.

The apostles were not liars or prone to make things up. The next person that insults Christianity in this manner will receive a formal warning and thier post will be deleted.

This is a Christian forum and the people posting here will show respect for Christ and the bible while you are here.

Rule 2 - No Flaming:


You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.
[color=darkred[b]*Amended to include* .... Any person(s) who comes to these forums to attack Christianity or Christians personally will be banned based on the discretion of the Admins & Mods.[/b] [/color]

As this is a Christian forum the moderators and administrators are going to be more stringent in not tolerating posts that put down Christians and Christianity in general.

This is a one sided ruling in the sense that because we want these forums to be edifying for Christians and non-believers that have sincere questions about the bible and the Christian faith we are not going to allow atheists, skeptics and other religions to blaspheme our God or put down our faith.

Amendment to TOS

Rule 2 - No Flaming:

You will not post any messages that harass, insult, belittle, threaten or flame another member or guest. This will include misquoting another member out of context. You may discuss another member's beliefs but there will be no personal attacks on the member himself or herself.
*Amended to include* .... Any person(s) who comes to these forums to attack Christianity or Christians personally will be banned based on the discretion of the Admins & Mods.


As this is a Christian forum the moderators and administrators are going to be more stringent in not tolerating posts that put down Christians and Christianity in general.

This is a one sided ruling in the sense that because we want these forums to be edifying for Christians and non-believers that have sincere questions about the bible and the Christian faith we are not going to allow atheists, skeptics and other religions to blaspheme our God or put down our faith.

We are not out to ban people but to keep our forums focus on Christianity for edification and meaningful discussion.

We will try to be as fair as we can as this can be very difficult to define at times.

Try to remember where you are when posting here.

Never hesitate to PM an administrator or moderator if you feel you are being mistreated.

Do not publicly question the actions of an administrator or moderator on these forums. It will not be tolerated.

See the TOS at the top of the General forums topic for clarification.

Please note:

Rule 6 - No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).

You won't be labeled as a troll if your post has substance.

 

[Guest]

ok, then can someone clarify my first objection in matthew about genelogies, I have everything but a answer. If youre going to ban because you dont want christainity put to the test like every other religion out there, then what makes christainity different than any other religion? I think of another reason to edify christians than give a truthful answer to objections, so ones faith grow more and more in christ. I am a born again christian, so youre going to ban a christian who have many isues with the NT?

 

[bibleberean]

The New Testament as well as the Old is accepted by faith.

None of us were an eyewitness of the birth of Christ nor of His resurrection from the dead. That does not mean we do not have good reasons for believing them.

Jesus did fulfill many prophecies but just as we cannot prove that God created the world in 7 literal days, or that God parted the Red sea for Moses we cannot prove that Jesus is the Messiah with that type of proof.

We believe that the New testament reveals and illuminates the mysteries of the Old.

Here is a prophecy that Jesus has partially fulfilled and will completely fulfill when He returns.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Jesus is that man. This prophecy could not be fulfilled by an animal or a nation.

Israel is a back slidden nation. God Himself calls them "stiff necked and hard hearted".

Israel as a nation could not take the iniquities of itself upon itself. The Messiah could.

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Did Jesus die for Jews only?

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Israel was supposed to be a light to the Gentiles but it became like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Only Jesus could fulfill these prophecies. Israel will be punished of her whoredoms.

Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

Their King came to them and they rejected Him and called a curse upon themselves.

John 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar.

Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

What the skeptics and enemies of Christ want from us is proof that they can see, feel and touch with their senses.

As Christians we can simply present them with God's word and they can receive it or reject it.

These people are not here to discuss Christianity but to blaspheme and put it down.

There is only one way people can be saved it is by preaching the gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

If they choose not to believe then we have done our duty when we have preached. No amount of scripture will convince the lost of their need for the pardon Christ has offered them.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[bibleberean]

There are people that claim to be Jews who post on the Sabbath in these forums.

That is about as Kosher as blood sausage and ham being served at a Bar Mitzvah. 8-)

 

[bibleberean]

Why are there two genealogies of Jesus?

http://www.carm.org/questions/2geneologies.htm

Both Matthew 1 and Luke 3 contain genealogies of Jesus. But there is one problem. They are different. Luke's Genealogy starts at Adam and goes to David. Matthew's Genealogy starts at Abraham and goes to David. When the genealogies arrive at David, they split with David's sons: Nathan (Mary's side) and Solomon (Joseph's side).

There is no discrepancy because one genealogy is for Mary and the other is for Joseph. It was customary to mention the genealogy through the father even though it was clearly known that it was through Mary.

Some critics may not accept this explanation no matter what reasoning is produced. Nevertheless, they should first realize that the Bible should be interpreted in the context of its literary style, culture, and history. Breaking up genealogies into male and female representations was acceptable in the ancient Near East culture since it was often impolite to speak of women without proper conditions being met: male presence, etc. Therefore, one genealogy is of Mary and the other of Joseph, even though both mention Joseph. In other words, the Mary was counted "in" Joseph and under his headship.

Second, do any critics actually think that those who collected the books of the New Testament, and who believed it was inerrant, were un aware of this blatant differentiation in genealogies? Does anyone actually think that the Christians were so dense that they were unaware of the differences in the genealogy lists, closed their eyes and put the gospels into the canon anyway hoping no one would notice? Not at all.

They knew the cultural context and had no problem with it knowing that one was of Joseph and the other of Mary. Third, notice that Luke starts with Mary and goes backwards to Adam. Matthew starts with Abraham and goes forward to Joseph.

The intents of the genealogies were obviously different which is clearly seen in their styles. Luke was not written to the Jews, Matthew was. Therefore, Matthew would carry the legal line (from Abraham through David) and Luke the biological one (from Adam through David). Also, notice that Luke's first three chapters mention Mary eleven times; hence, the genealogy from her. Fourth, notice Luke 3:23, "And when He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being supposedly the son of Joseph, the son of Eli," This designation "supposedly" seems to signify the Marian genealogy since it seems to indicate that Jesus is not the biological son of Joseph."

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Jesus is the seed and look it is counted through the woman...Imagine that...

Jesus is also the seed of Abraham...

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I don't care what anyone else thinks. I know that Jesus is the Messiah and the seed and Saviour who was to come.

Those who claim to be Christians and have no faith bring shame and disgrace upon the name of God.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Because many Jews and skeptics choose not to believe does it bring the bible to nothing?

Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[Guest]

again count the generations in matthew , I dont see 42. Lets take 1 arguement at a time, all you posted bibleboy we can get to later, but I am still awaiting a response to why there are 42 generations listed. I havent bagan to go after the rest of the false evidence and writings in matthew.