How do we respond to jews who believe messiah hasn't come?

[einstein]

Isaiah 53

What I find astounding is the Christian attitude on this forum to rarely if ever, even CONSIDER the possibility that there may be an alternative interpretation to their ideology. When problems of translation from the Hebrew are presented they are never directly answered. The response is usually more verses from the Greek Testament whose accuracy is being questioned because of its repreated misinterpretations! This is just circular and pointless reasoning.

Example: Heb8:8-9: "Behold. the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.(9) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;because they continued not in my covenant and I regarded them not,saith the Lord."

Here's what it really says in Jeremiah 31:30-31:"Behold, days are coming says the Lord when I will form with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. Not like the covenant I formed with their forefathers on the day I held them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, for they broke my covenant,although I was a husband (BA'ALTI)
says the Lord.

Does anyone else think the meaning is being distorted in this passage.?

Example: Rom11:26: "...as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob."

Here's what it really say in Isaiah 59:20: "And a Redeemer shall come to Zion (le'tziyon) and to those who repent of transgression in Jacob..."
In other words, Isaiah is NOT saying the role of the Mashiach is to take away our sins, rather he is saying that when we turn away from sin, THEN the Mashiach will come!

I respect the Christian's right to believe what he wants. But PLEASE, stop trying to tell me that only your beliefs are the right ones especially when they are plagiarized and distorted from sources that often say otherwise.

 

[Guest]

Great point einstein, again I havent heard a resonse to how many generations are in matthew when matthew cleary says 42. If one makes a count, there are not 42, this is a big descrancy to the auther of mathew

 

[BradtheImpaler]

When you repent and believe God will give you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that you too can understand the scriptures.

Good. You have claimed to understand how the verses relate to Jesus, as you are helped out by the holy spirit.

If this is true, then explain how the verses relate to Jesus.

Are you going to explain then? Perhaps the holy spirit hasn't actually helped you to understand the verses?

:

(I may have to limit my posts to emoticons as anything else I say tends to get deleted)

 

[Solo]

When you repent and believe God will give you the indwelling of the Holy Spirit so that you too can understand the scriptures.

Good. You have claimed to understand how the verses relate to Jesus, as you are helped out by the holy spirit.

If this is true, then explain how the verses relate to Jesus.

Are you going to explain then? Perhaps the holy spirit hasn't actually helped you to understand the verses?

I understand the scripture fine. I just do not see the profitability to get into debate with antiChristians. It is not worthwhile to argue points of skepticism with unbelievers. It is so much more edifying when unbelievers are seeking God's truth; it is with these that I will teach and show the way. It is fairly easy to spot those with antagonistic intentions, and life is too short to waste time with them.

 

[AHIMSA]

It is not worthwhile to argue points of skepticism with unbelievers.

Right. We should only argue with people who will ultimately agree with us in the end.

It is so much more edifying when unbelievers are seeking God's truth

That's right! Unless people are seeking to transform their minds into a carbon copy of your own....there's really no point in discussing with them. God forbid you might second guess your own beliefs, and i mean that quite literally.

Yawn. I grow bored of the inablility to defend Christian-messianic prophecy. Any learned scholar would have given credit where credit is due: to the Jewish side of the argument on these issues.

 

[Solo]

10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. 13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Luke 10:10-16

 

[DivineNames]

Are you going to explain then? Perhaps the holy spirit hasn't actually helped you to understand the verses?

I understand the scripture fine. I just do not see the profitability to get into debate with antiChristians. It is not worthwhile to argue points of skepticism with unbelievers.

I imagine that if you could genuinely explain how the verses related to Jesus, then you would do so for the benefit of Christians, even if you didn't want to talk with non-Christians.

You do not understand how those verses relate to Jesus, if you think that you do then you are a little deluded perhaps...

 

[DivineNames]

There is no explaining away the fact that approximately 1.8 billion Gentiles in every part of this earth now claim to believe in the "God of Abraham...Isaac and... Jacob"

This is not accurate. What about the billion Muslims that would claim to believe in the "God of Abraham...Isaac and... Jacob"? Is not Islam contributing to the supposed prophecy fulfillment?

Also, many Jews may see the Christian Trinity God as idolatry, and not the same as the Jewish God.

 

[DivineNames]

We could also talk about many problems with the Jewish scripures, most notably the conflicting accounts in Genesis, the use of the name YHWH, coming from the Chaldean war cult, the use of the sybmbol of Dagon (mogen David), and so forth. If one choses to take the historicist position with Christianity in defense of Judaism, then one must take the same approach with Judaism- and guess what- same problems.

Perhaps, but Christianity will have the problems of Jewish scripture and the problems of the New Testament.

 

[Solo]

Are you going to explain then? Perhaps the holy spirit hasn't actually helped you to understand the verses?

I understand the scripture fine. I just do not see the profitability to get into debate with antiChristians. It is not worthwhile to argue points of skepticism with unbelievers.

I imagine that if you could genuinely explain how the verses related to Jesus, then you would do so for the benefit of Christians, even if you didn't want to talk with non-Christians.

You do not understand how those verses relate to Jesus, if you think that you do then you are a little deluded perhaps...

Here is my entire post which you cut up to serve your own purpose (which is not in seeking the truth):

I understand the scripture fine. I just do not see the profitability to get into debate with antiChristians. It is not worthwhile to argue points of skepticism with unbelievers. It is so much more edifying when unbelievers are seeking God's truth; it is with these that I will teach and show the way. It is fairly easy to spot those with antagonistic intentions, and life is too short to waste time with them.

Note that I said nothing about not wanting to talk with non-Christians. I said that it is more edifying to talk with unbelievers who are seeking God's truth than it is arguing points of skepticism with unbelievers who are antiChristians like yourself. You have been shown the truth, and you reject it. Simple. You will never understand God's Word. I am alright with that if you are. I understand God's Word more and more each day, and it is very exciting to see non-Christians who were lost and on their way to eternal condemnation come to know Jesus and become saved.

There is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repents according to Jesus.


10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth. Luke 15:10

For those Jews that do not hear and see God's word:

23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. 25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves. Acts 28:23-28

 

[DivineNames]

Note that I said nothing about not wanting to talk with non-Christians. I said that it is more edifying to talk with unbelievers who are seeking God's truth than it is arguing points of skepticism with unbelievers who are antiChristians like yourself.

Yeah, but if you could explain how the verses relate to Jesus, I imagine that you would do so for the benefit of Christians, even if you don't want to talk with non-Christians of the kind that you consider to be against Christianity or whatever.

You don't understand how those verses relate to Jesus. You are a liar or deluded.

 

[Solo]

Note that I said nothing about not wanting to talk with non-Christians. I said that it is more edifying to talk with unbelievers who are seeking God's truth than it is arguing points of skepticism with unbelievers who are antiChristians like yourself.

Yeah, but if you could explain how the verses relate to Jesus, I imagine that you would do so for the benefit of Christians, even if you don't want to talk with non-Christians of the kind that you consider to be against Christianity or whatever.

You don't understand how those verses relate to Jesus. You are a liar or deluded.

You missed it again; I am neither a liar or deluded, I am correct in my understanding and find that arguing your spurious points of skepticism is a waste of time. You have shown your inability to comprehend reason and scriptural truth in past debates. When you have come into the light unafraid of the truth that God has for you, holler and I'll teach you some real exciting things that will save you from your condemnation to come.

 

[DivineNames]

You missed it again; I am neither a liar or deluded, I am correct in my understanding and find that arguing your spurious points of skepticism is a waste of time.

If you could explain how the verses relate to Jesus, you almost certainly would have done so for the benefit of Christians. You can go on about not wanting to "throw your pearls..." or whatever. The fact is, if you could explain the verses then you almost certainly would have done it.

You are either a liar or deluded.

You have shown your inability to comprehend reason and scriptural truth in past debates.

All you are capable of-

(a) "Its true, its definitely true, I know it from the holy spirit"
(b) Threats of hell-fire (please grow up)

 

[Solo]

All you are capable of-

(a) "Its true, its definitely true, I know it from the holy spirit"
(b) Threats of hell-fire (please grow up)

And now you have the truth, and nothing but the truth. You too can know the truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit, and miss the eternal condemnation in store for the unbelievers.

I noticed that you use lower case for Holy Spirit, but upper case for DivineNames. Is this an unconscious or conscious act?

 

[BradtheImpaler]

10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. 13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. 16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Luke 10:10-16

Another threat instead if a real answer. Ho-hum. Let me try...

Woe unto thee Solo!!

Hmmm...did that help me win an argument?

 

[Solo]

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Romans 10:1-11

 

[DivineNames]

All you are capable of-

(a) "Its true, its definitely true, I know it from the holy spirit"
(b) Threats of hell-fire (please grow up)

And now you have the truth, and nothing but the truth. You too can know the truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit, and miss the eternal condemnation in store for the unbelievers.

At least you don't try to deny it. Instead, you (again) claim to know the truth from the holy spirit and (again) you threaten with hell. Thank you for confirming my point.

 

[Solo]

All you are capable of-

(a) "Its true, its definitely true, I know it from the holy spirit"
(b) Threats of hell-fire (please grow up)

And now you have the truth, and nothing but the truth. You too can know the truth as revealed by the Holy Spirit, and miss the eternal condemnation in store for the unbelievers.

At least you don't try to deny it. Instead, you (again) claim to know the truth from the holy spirit and (again) you threaten with hell. Thank you for confirming my point.

I know the truth from the Holy Spirit, but I do not threaten with hell. I am warning you about hell. It's up to you to be smart enough to take heed.
If it was up to me who would go to hell, I would already have had it done, and believers would be in the presence of God; but God knows so much better than I do in the timing of his plan. Be thankful.

 

[Solo]

Solo, if you don't want to discuss certain points with skeptics, then please do not discuss those points with skeptics. To be honest, I would prefer it if you didn't contribute until such time as you learn the ability to say something moderately intelligent.

It seems, however, that you do want to enter the discussion- to go on about how you understand these things from the holy spirit. When you are asked to back it up (predictably) you can't do it, you don't actually have any answer and you try to evade. You are THE waste of time around these forums.

If you don't want to talk about these points with skeptics THEN GENUINELY KEEP OUT OF THE DISCUSSION!!

There are more than skeptics in the forums that are sincerely trying to learn about God. These are the folks that I will give answers to. You have already shown that you disregard the many truths that you have been shown, therefore, you have been correctly identified in my book as a antiChristian skeptic not willing to learn the truth of God, but instead to accuse the brethren with spurious arguments. Conflict is your way, so be happy in it while you have the time.

 

[Solo]

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. 24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, 25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man. John 2:18-25