How do you know God is real?

[WIP]

just calling it like I see it [no pun intended].

I think those quotes don't refer to the physical but the mental. We all have eyes and ears, well most of us, but we tend to live with them closed to reality. I think that's what Jesus was referring to.

 

[darrell]

I think those quotes don't refer to the physical but the mental. We all have eyes and ears, well most of us, but we tend to live with them closed to reality. I think that's what Jesus was referring to.

Yes - metaphor.

"Open the eyes of my heart, Lord..."

 

[Deavonreye]

I think those quotes don't refer to the physical but the mental. We all have eyes and ears, well most of us, but we tend to live with them closed to reality. I think that's what Jesus was referring to.

:waving We all must see things as we choose. I am certain that reality is along the lines of Occams Razor.

 

[Eventide]

While God can send strong delusion upon those who reject the love of the truth, it's also important to remember that the god of this present evil world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe the glorious gospel of Christ.. the parable of the sower tells us this as well, and other factors which prevent the incorruptible seed of the word to take root in their life.

As far as seeing goes.. who can't 'see' perhaps one of the most important truths of scripture.. that we are sinners.. unless of course the conscience is completely seared and there's denial of even that simple truth.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews 11 has the answer: 'He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.'

 

[Deavonreye]

While God can send strong delusion upon those who reject the love of the truth, it's also important to remember that the god of this present evil world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe the glorious gospel of Christ.. the parable of the sower tells us this as well, and other factors which prevent the incorruptible seed of the word to take root in their life.

As far as seeing goes.. who can't 'see' perhaps one of the most important truths of scripture.. that we are sinners.. unless of course the conscience is completely seared and there's denial of even that simple truth.

Let me speak to this post, and attempt to do so without offense, as none is intended.

The story of Christ SEEMS to be wonderul on the surface. It sounds like such a loving act. However, I don't see it completely as such. Everyone does things they feel are wrong, even though many things are subjective. OF those things that a person knows was wrong, I'm sure they feel sorry for it, AND of those who were offended [for argument sake, in this case, god], the desire to be forgiven.

That's not the case for those who do not see THIS story as being real. . . or who do not believe that any gods exist [thus not having a reason to feel that they offended it]. This does not mean that they are "rejecting the love of truth". I don't see why Christianity MUST keep saying this. If a person doesn't see it as "truth", but rather a myth, they would ONLY be "rejecting what they see as fiction". I would hope that Christians would realize this. Not everyone believes THEIR religious convictions.

As to my comment about "the story of Christ not really being a true story of love" is this....... Given the fact [for sake of argument, "the fact" being true] that god loves people enough to "give them an escape from Hell out of love for them", then we must look at all the details.

1. A person must believe it all on faith ONLY, . . . even though it goes against physical laws and left us with no evidence of the veracity of the story.

2. This "love" has odd characteristics to it. God set up rules that weren't necessary [infinite death for finite crimes]. God became angry enough that the unnecessary rules had to be put into effect. . . and at his own detriment. It isn't "love" when the rules include "the death of something innocent to pay for finite crimes".

3. Only those who believe the story are able to partake in this "forgiveness". In reality, people who "believe the story" are forgiven based ONLY upon a metaphorical transfer to Jesus. You can claim that Jesus's death transcended time, but in reality, the event took place ~2,000 years ago. God still forgivess people outside of anything other than . . . . . a person asking for it. The unnecessary step [death of an innocent] being irrelevant.

The above is [of course] "for sake of arguments" only.

 

[darrell]

Let me speak to this post, and attempt to do so without offense, as none is intended

No offense taken.

The story of Christ SEEMS to be wonderul on the surface. It sounds like such a loving act. However, I don't see it completely as such. Everyone does things they feel are wrong, even though many things are subjective. OF those things that a person knows was wrong, I'm sure they feel sorry for it, AND of those who were offended [for argument sake, in this case, god], the desire to be forgiven.

That's not the case for those who do not see THIS story as being real. . . or who do not believe that any gods exist [thus not having a reason to feel that they offended it]. This does not mean that they are "rejecting the love of truth". I don't see why Christianity MUST keep saying this. If a person doesn't see it as "truth", but rather a myth, they would ONLY be "rejecting what they see as fiction". I would hope that Christians would realize this.

I get it. I have no doubt God does too - completely.

Not everyone believes THEIR religious convictions.

That's kind of an oxymoron. If you don't really believe it, you're not really convicted. But I think I get your point: there's lots of people practicing a religion they don't really believe to be true, or about which they have serious doubts.

3. Only those who believe the story are able to partake in this "forgiveness". .

That's not what I believe, and it's not what the Bible says.

I'm on my way out the door, so I'll respond to the first 2 arguments later.

 

[Deavonreye]

darrell, I HOPE you wouldn't be "out the door" for speaking your mind on these types of topics. If anyone has "out the door" posts here, it is people like me. You, on the other hand, are Christian.

 

[darrell]

darrell, I HOPE you wouldn't be "out the door" for speaking your mind on these types of topics. If anyone has "out the door" posts here, it is people like me. You, on the other hand, are Christian.

I haven't been given the boot yet.

When I said I was "out the door" I meant I was literally getting ready to head out my front door to leave for an appointment. I apologize for not writing clearly and causing any confusion. And I have other committments to attend to right now, but I will respond to your other 2 arguments later.

 

[Drew]

In what way can you KNOW that the thoughts you are having are yours or some god input?

I agree, and this one of several reasons why, as you know, I am quite suspicious of the "personal experience" that many of my fellow Christians speak of.

 

[Deavonreye]

I haven't been given the boot yet.

When I said I was "out the door" I meant I was literally getting ready to head out my front door to leave for an appointment. I apologize for not writing clearly and causing any confusion. And I have other committments to attend to right now, but I will respond to your other 2 arguments later.

OhhhhhhHHHH. . . . embarrassing!

Drew, I agree.

 

[darrell]

1. A person must believe it all on faith ONLY, . . .

An infant can’t walk, but he sees others walking and believes that he can too. As he matures and grows stronger, he tries to walk. He stumbles and falls at first, but he persists in his efforts and eventually learns to walk. So too – as evidence – we see others walking in faith.

even though it goes against physical laws

As we discussed in another thread, by definition the supernatural is above and beyond the natural. Therefore, a supernatural God is not limited to or constrained by natural physical laws.

and left us with no evidence of the veracity of the story.

I completely disagree with you that there’s no evidence. As I’ve told you before, my faith is based on evidence. Maybe nothing quantifiable that we could measure with some kind of faith-o-meter, but evidence none-the-less: textual, historical and archaeological evidence that supports the Gospel narratives, the complexity of design in nature, medical miracles, glimpses into the afterlife through those who have had near or after-death experiences, the witness of those who have had first-hand encounters with God. I realize there are those, like yourself, who don’t find any of these types of evidence compelling or convincing, or dismiss them because they believe there’s other possible explanations, and for some reason don’t find the testimony of others credible. I suppose any one of these by itself would not have been enough for me, but after examining all of them, I could come to no other conclusion but faith.

2. This "love" has odd characteristics to it. God set up rules that weren't necessary

According to whom? My own children probably think some of my rules are unnecessary or unfair. However, I don’t make any rules because I’m angry. I make them for the good of my children, whether they understand them or not.

3. In reality, people who "believe the story" are forgiven based ONLY upon a metaphorical transfer to Jesus. You can claim that Jesus's death transcended time, but in reality, the event took place ~2,000 years ago.

Yes, in reality - in time - the event took place 2000 years ago. This in no way discounts the possibility that the act can transcend time.

[infinite death for finite crimes]. God became angry enough that the unnecessary rules had to be put into effect. . . and at his own detriment. It isn't "love" when the rules include "the death of something innocent to pay for finite crimes". . . .
God still forgivess people outside of anything other than . . . . . a person asking or it. The unnecessary step [death of an innocent] being irrelevant.

Who says it’s unnecessary or irrelevant?
<O:p</O:p
Deavon, you perceive an angry, vengeful, legalistic God (I understand how you came to this perspective – you’re not the first), and you have a finite view of human existence. This is a distorted view of the Christian faith.

 

[Deavonreye]

The "rules" I was refering to aren't "rules of OUR actions", . . . but that which was set up by this god. I'm refering to "setting up a 'death of innocent creatures' and ultimately 'death of himself' to appease his own anger". These rules were set up from the beginning, yet in reality of this religious institution, he sacrificed himself to appease himself of the anger he had towards those who sinned. In other words, it was his own doing to ultimately forgive and the act of "dying a physical death" was unnecessary and even irrelevant. Regardless of "that's the way he set it up", it is incongruent. So yes, I DO see a very legalistic god here. Absolutely.

As for the things you've suggested above, . . . the evidences of god, . . . yes it is true that I [and others in my shoes] would see these things as having a natural explaination. Regardless, until a person has an obvious and undenyable "god experience", it is hard to "just believe this god is real".

 

[ThunderTongue]

(without reading entire thread)


i used to be agnostic, but was leaning more toward atheist. when i would ask why someone believed in God, it was never enough for someone to say something like, "well, one day, i just looked at everything around me and realized there had to be a maker". although there may have been an experience there that that particular sentence doesnt quite describe (like a real sense of God speaking to you) that response wasnt enough for me. i also hated when the response was "well, its just how ive been brought up". i thought those people were just followers of tradition who couldnt think for themselves.

now, when someone asks me this question, i tell them its because ive experienced his presence. ive actually (more than once or twice, and without any drugs or hyped up emotional setting) felt him surround me, making it undeniable, and better than ANYTHING ive experienced before.

here is the catch...i first believed he existed before he visited me. it took me thinking i was about to die one night to make me reach out for him and be willing to give him all of me. and when i did, he met me there right where i was, and surrounded me with a peace that the word peace doesnt cover. infact, it kinda rapes it. it is like the creator of the universe is hugging you, and you suddenly remember what you knew before you were born.

experience is your best witness...and if anyone here wants to experience a visit from him, just seek his face, (not his hands) and be willing to undergo any changes that may result. you will NOT be disappointed.

 

[Deavonreye]

Thundertongue, . . . you probably haven't read my posts, being new. . . . but I searched for years [in all sincerity] and ultimately WAS disappointed. I'm glad you had your experience, . . . but personal experience isn't enough to state that any specific god is real.

All this to say that, "just seek his face" isn't an answer for everyone.

 

[ThunderTongue]

i understand deavon, and true, "just seek his face" may not be the approach that works for everone.

what i cant understand though, is how you didnt come face to face with God if you were seeking him, willing to give everything to him.


its kind of like a paradox...one may want to come to God, not sure if he exists, yet to come face to face with him, you have to believe he exists. i cant quite put it into words i guess.

 

[Deavonreye]

i understand deavon, and true, "just seek his face" may not be the approach that works for everone.

what i cant understand though, is how you didnt come face to face with God if you were seeking him, willing to give everything to him.


its kind of like a paradox...one may want to come to God, not sure if he exists, yet to come face to face with him, you have to believe he exists. i cant quite put it into words i guess.

It's a good question. I would say that either:

1. God doesn't exist.
2. God exists but only a few people experience it.
3. God exists, but isn't the christian god, thus I was asking the wrong question.
4. God exists but wants nothing to do with me.

There could be a few other options, but those seem to be the main ones.

 

[ThunderTongue]

if any of the above were likely, i would say no. 2...but then again, i believe God wants all of us to experience his presence. there has to be something in the way of you and God, and i say that without a bit of accusing or blame, just trying to wrap my head around it.

one of the hardest things to get around is our own mind and intellect. trust me, its like "chasing the tail of a dogma"

you seem like an intelligent person, what little ive read of your posts, and i hope we can sometime get a good convo going about any subject that burrows deeper than the surface of its appearance. despite being a christian, i do have an open and self-thinking mind, lol...and i hope we can travel some paradoxical thought processes

 

[Deavonreye]

"Faith" is an interesting topic, for sure. Many people seem to be able to transcend the reality of our natural world and embrace a faith ideology. Some, like me, cannot. I do see an amazing world . . . and universe. . . and many areas of our planet are quite awe inspiring. Even so, I can only see it as being completely natural. Science has done an excellent job at explaining our world and universe, and has also given us many incredible technologies that have benefitted us. That is real to me.

When I was a christian [as I recall my past], any time I attempted to [sincerely] do the things that were supposed to be the "relationship" part of "the walk", I found it to be empty. Just reading a book and thinking to myself [in "prayer"]. I'm a person who requires more than the words/experiences of other people, and ancient texts, to be convinced. It's just the way I was made. . . . . . .

 

[WIP]

I'm a person who requires more than the words/experiences of other people, and ancient texts, to be convinced.

So instead you rely on the words/experiences of other people that believe they have things figured out beyond the text, ancient or otherwise? Doesn't sound too different to me aside from which texts you are willing to accept.