How do you observe YOUR day of worship?

[Rick W]

The sign of the old covenant was circumcision and the shedding of blood of sacrificial animals.


The covenant with Abraham

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.


The covenant with Moses

Exo 24:5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD.
Exo 24:6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
Exo 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.
Exo 24:8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.


A new covenant promised

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


The covenant of Christ

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.




* Gentiles without circumcision, not under the law, given the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

* Righteousness not by the law but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

* Not by the blood of animals or ordinances but by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

* The Galatians were being tempted to enter into the Old Covenant through circumcision.
* We are not the children of the bondwoman, held as slaves by the law. We are free in Christ.

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

* If they entered into the Old Covenant they would then have to keep the whole law, all of it.
* Do not become slaves again to the law.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

* How is the law fulfilled under the New Covenant?

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

* The commandments of Christ.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.






By grace I am under the New Covenant through the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross. I'm free from the Law, all of it, for through love all the Law is fulfilled.

Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

 

[mondar]

First of all, if there even appears to be a conflict in the scriptures who would YOU GO WITH?

Paul. A man. The created being! OR,

JESUS CHRIST YOUR MASTER, THE ONE THAT CREADTED EVERYTHING THAT WAS CREATED. YOUR ONLY JUDGE?

Not a very good statement.

 

[Eccl12and13]

First of all, if there even appears to be a conflict in the scriptures who would YOU GO WITH?

Paul. A man. The created being! OR,

JESUS CHRIST YOUR MASTER, THE ONE THAT CREADTED EVERYTHING THAT WAS CREATED. YOUR ONLY JUDGE?

Not a very good statement.

Why is this not a Good Statement Mondar? Is it because you would follow Paul and not your God? Please explain to me why the statement is bad. I really would like to know!

 

[stovebolts]

Eccl12and13,

When Paul is writing in Romans 3 on Law, he is speaking about Torah, the Mosiac Law as Rick already stated. This is also true when Paul writes to the Galatians.

As Paul states in Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Chase out the "Therefore", and you will see why the Law (Torah) couldn't bring about Salvation, which is why when Paul says, "The Law was nailed to the Cross", he was referring to the Christ, for Christ, as the fulfillment of the Law, was able to do what the Law was unable to do. The Book of Hebrews has much to say on this matter.

What do you mean, 'Chase out the "Therefore"? Why would I REMOVE something from the bible?

Oops My bad grammer. Please, let me clarify.

Instead of saying "chase out", what if I were to say something like...

Ask yourself the question, "Why was this written". And then go find the verses just before it, and figure out what Paul is saying by asking the question, why did Paul say this. ;) Is that any clearer?

Regardless, Salvation has always been based on belief, not works. Which is why Paul quotes Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Why doesn't anyone ever leave Pauls writings and quote from some of the other teachers of the NT? Why don't you guys go to a teacher that is easier to understand? I guess because these teachers don't leave any room for the grey areas you use to hide behind! Here is what James had to say about Faith, Works and Gods Law and it's very simple. I bet even you Pauleenites can understand him:

James 2
[8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

WOW!!!! James just said to speak and DO as they that will be judged by the Law!

[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[15] If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

I don't know....CAN FAITH SAVE HIM? Let's read:

[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So is James saying it takes MORE THAT FAITH? Let's read more:

[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So even the devils believe, but will THEY be SAVED?

[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

So Abraham going up the mountain and just BELIEVING was not enough. Abraham had to DO SOMETHING! He had to DRAW BACK THE KNIFE! He had to perform an ACTION!!!

So Abraham was justified by WORKS? WOW!!! Let's read more:

[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Seem pretty simple to me.

So should we just disguard what James just told us because it does not APPEAR to follow the writings of Paul? Of course not. We are to use the ENTIRE BIBLE to prove our doctrine:

2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
1 Tim.4
[16] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

One thing your missing is this. In Romans 3, Paul is talking about Torah (The Law) when he mentions "Works" within the appropriate context.

However, when the word "works" is mentioned in relation to Abraham by either Paul or James, it is not refering to Torah Works. How so you may ask? Torah wasn't written until it was given to Moses... it's a time line thingy as well as a basic theology thingy.

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard of 4QMMT? You might want to do some homework in that area, since it's based on Justification by Works. When James writes, he is opposing the doctrine of justification by works, for even as Jesus said, " Mt 5:20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Why did Jesus say this? Weren't they keeping Torah?

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works , so that no one can boast. For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.

What's the difference in this verse between works and works?

I'll be away until Monday afternoon.

Peace

 

[Rick W]

It's interesting to note that one must "enter into the covenant" in the first place.

To say one must follow the law, any law, assumes one has already entered into the covenant of circumcision of the flesh with God.
The only covenant me or most others here have entered into is the covenant of Jesus Christ through His blood and not by circumcision or by being sprinkled by the blood of animals.
The Gentiles in Galatians were being tempted to enter into the covenant of circumcision but it's quite obvious Paul was against them doing so. Yet, they received the spirit of Christ.

"that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing"

Seems to me there's a decision that must first be made of whether or not to enter into that covenant to be under the Law.

I choose not to be.
<end of story>

 

[Eccl12and13]

When James writes, he is opposing the doctrine of justification by works'

Please explain how YOU determined James is OPPOSING works as being needed for salvation in the following scriptures:

James 2
[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

So James is asking the question, Can FAITH only save a man? Let's read more:

[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So James just said though you may have faith, without WORKS, FAITH is DEAD. So BOTH are needed. Still waiting to see how James means you do NOT NEED WORDKS for salvation.

[19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James here gives us a PERFECT example how having FAITH alone is just not going to cut it. James tells us that we believe in God, well good for us. But the devils believe also! I ask you, will THEIR reward be the same as those of us that obey God?

[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Again James tells us, just having faith ALONE will not cut it, WORKS is needed also.

[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

OH YEAH!!! I can really see how this is saying works is not needed!!! We all know the story of Abraham and how he went to sacrifice his son Issac. Abraham had FAITH all the way up the mountain. Even when he placed his son on the altar, he believed in God. Let me ask you, had Abraham stopped right then, right when he placed his son on the altar, whould he have been justified? NO!!!! It was not until Abraham drew back the knife to stike the lad did the angel of the Lord tell Abraham not to harm the lad. It took ACTION from Abraham! He had to DO SOMETHING. I took WORK for Abraham to be justified.

Now just incase, James gave us another example of how works is needed and not just faith alone.

[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

So please, explain to me again this theory of yours that James is OPPOSING having to have works alone with faith for salvation!

 

[stovebolts]

Eccl12and13,

I find no delight in arguing for the sheer act of arguing. Perhaps is you were to take a deep breath, go back and read what I’ve stated, perhaps you will see your misunderstanding.

To get us on the same page, as we are obviously on two separate pages, the thrust of my posts thus far have been to address how the word “Works†is used within Christian writings. What I am arguing, is that “Works†can be defined as Torah depending on context, which is defined by the first five books of the Bible and are often referred to as the “Lawâ€Â.
“Work’s†can also be defined by things you do, though often relational to ‘Torah’, but apart from the “Lawâ€Â. Perhaps a good definition of this might be summed up as "Truth".

In the matter of Abraham and Isaac, the writer of Hebrews clears that matter up very well when he writes,

Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Again, Abraham believed that YHVH could raise his son up from the dead. A key tenet of the Christian faith is that we believe that one day, we too will be resurrected in Christ Jesus.
It is a fascinating note that Abram and Sari gave birth to Isaac at at time when Sari's womb was considered 'dead' as well as Abram's 'seed'. In a sense, YHVH had brought Isaac from the dead once, ... he could do it again ;)

Before you misunderstand me, let me make myself clear. Scripture is clear that we are saved by grace through faith, and that we are justified by faith, that is, we are considered in right standing with Adonia and this is where our assurance is grounded. However, as new creatures in Christ, we are tasked with doing the work of the Lord, and there is nothing wrong with working for the Lord. We simply don’t base our Salvation on the merits of our work, for as James says,

James 1:22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

It’s really very simple, if our salvation was based on the works of the Law (Torah), and I’m not undercutting the value of good works (the things we do in the name of Christ), actually I’m a huge advocate of being the kind of people God wants us to be, but if our salvation was based on works (Torah), then the Jews would have a huge leg up since they were blessed with the Law through Moses. (which is what Paul is arguing in Romans)

Before we go any further, do we have any misunderstandings that need to be cleared up? If I may ask, just so I’m sure, do you believe that you can earn your salvation, or do you believe it is a free gift?

 

[stovebolts]

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord:
If you want to worship God with other believers on a Saturday, feel free.

If you are not reading the post you are missing the point!

The question is not which day you observe, but whether or not the rules governing the Sabbath were changed.

As stated in the post, God gave us instructions as to how we should observe His Sabbath day. Jesus told us the following, "...That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." Luke 4:4, which at that time the ONLY word of God available was the OT. Paul tells Timothy, "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Tim.3:15. Again the only scriptures Timothy had were the OT. No place can you find that Jesus directed His followers they no longer had to observe Gods Sabbath guidelines.

Hence the reason for the question. Whether you worship on the 1st, 2nd or whatever day of the week, does it say anywhere in the bible that it is now OK to cook, buy and sell, do your own desires on your day of worship. The DAY of worship is not in question. What you DO on your day of worship....That is the question!

Please let your answers come from the Holy scriptures!

Reading your post, isn't it frustrating when people don't take the time to understand what the other is saying ;)

But in short,

Psalms 40:6-8 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; my ears have you opened: burnt offering and sin offering have you not required. Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do your will, O my God: yea, your law is within my heart.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

That about sums it up

Perhaps the next question might be, "What does that type of worship look like when articulated in a corporate setting" :D

 

[Eccl12and13]

Eccl12and13,

Before we go any further, do we have any misunderstandings that need to be cleared up? If I may ask, just so I’m sure, do you believe that you can earn your salvation, or do you believe it is a free gift?

Let me put it in a way that may be a little easier to understand.

Jesus died for the sins of the world. Fact!

When Jesus died His blood is what gave ALL MEN pardon of their sins. Fact!

ALL MEN received this Pardon of their sins. Fact!

The gift was the Pardon, or as Paul called it REMISSION of sin.

But does that mean ALL MEN will receive the reward? ??????? No it does not? Why?

Because some sort of action MUST be performed by EACH MAN in order to receive the promise.

Now here is the definition of 'works': acts: deeds or actions.

Now I will let you answer the above. Am I right or wrong on any statement I made above?

Please let me know. Because if I am not wrong then, to answer your question, Yes!!! We ALL must EARN OUR SALVATION! We were ALL given the gift of remission of sin. But will all that received that gift enter into the kingdom of God?

According to the thinking of most the answer to that would HAVE to be yes!!! But is that what the scriptures says? Let's read it:

Isa.5
[14] Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Matt.7
[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So according to the scriptures, Hell is getting larger and there will not be many that find the way into the kingdom.

That does not sound like ALL that received the Grace of Jesus will get the reward of Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you for clarifying your position.

However, I feel that it is important that we resolve "Work" and "Law", and exactly what both terms are used for within the framework of the context and narratives these words / terms are used before moving forward with any additional thoughts or redaction you wish to disperse within this topic.

Now here is the definition of 'works': acts: deeds or actions.

While this is a valid definition, within the framework of good exegesis, we must sharpen this definition. For example, Works, can often directly represent Torah, but Torah needed to be defined, thus, the works of Torah could be misrepresented.

My point is this, there are many 'works'. An example might be as simple as waking up and brushing my teeth. This is considered a work. Does getting up and going to work every day earn me salvation? Lets say I was a farmer, would that line of work grant me less of a chance of salvation than lets say a priest?

Jesus gives an example of murder, which per your definition is defined as the physical killing of a human being (as stated in the Torah). However, Jesus says that hating your brother is the same as murder. Does hating your brother fall within your definition of works? In other words, is it possible to hate your brother, but because you "do" all the right things, like giving him a cup of water, feeding him, or giving him a nickle, you can earn you way into the kingdom of heaven? Is that what the kingdom is all about?

Hopefully, you will see where I am coming from.

You see, work in it's most basic definition can be defined as movement. From there, we have to discern which direction that movement takes us.. into the dark, or into the light, and Torah was to be a map to discern the different paths.... and much more.

One misunderstanding built upon another misunderstanding only causes confusion, and confusion leads to resentment.

When we are finished discussing this matter, perhaps the word salvation might be another word / term we ought to discuss. But first, lets get Work and Law figured out first, then see how it is applied to verses we've already discussed.

Fair enough?

 

[Eccl12and13]

Thank you for clarifying your position.

However, I feel that it is important that we resolve "Work" and "Law", and exactly what both terms are used for within the framework of the context and narratives these words / terms are used before moving forward with any additional thoughts or redaction you wish to disperse within this topic.

Now here is the definition of 'works': acts: deeds or actions.

While this is a valid definition, within the framework of good exegesis, we must sharpen this definition. For example, Works, can often directly represent Torah, but Torah needed to be defined, thus, the works of Torah could be misrepresented.

My point is this, there are many 'works'. An example might be as simple as waking up and brushing my teeth. This is considered a work. Does getting up and going to work every day earn me salvation? Lets say I was a farmer, would that line of work grant me less of a chance of salvation than lets say a priest?

Jesus gives an example of murder, which per your definition is defined as the physical killing of a human being (as stated in the Torah). However, Jesus says that hating your brother is the same as murder. Does hating your brother fall within your definition of works? In other words, is it possible to hate your brother, but because you "do" all the right things, like giving him a cup of water, feeding him, or giving him a nickle, you can earn you way into the kingdom of heaven? Is that what the kingdom is all about?

Hopefully, you will see where I am coming from.

You see, work in it's most basic definition can be defined as movement. From there, we have to discern which direction that movement takes us.. into the dark, or into the light, and Torah was to be a map to discern the different paths.... and much more.

One misunderstanding built upon another misunderstanding only causes confusion, and confusion leads to resentment.

When we are finished discussing this matter, perhaps the word salvation might be another word / term we ought to discuss. But first, lets get Work and Law figured out first, then see how it is applied to verses we've already discussed.

Fair enough?

First:
Work is just as the definition says: acts: deeds or actions. And EVERYTIME it is used in the NT is is referring to just that: an act, deed or action.

NEVER is the word 'work' used as an emotion, as you try to say in the example you give, which by the way, Jesus NEVER said hating your brother is the same as murder.

1John.3
[15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Second:
Works NEVER represented the Law. There are 'works of the Law', which mean the actions that the Law requires, for example:

Exod.30
[10] And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

Here, once a year, Aaron is to make a sacrifice, (The Act), for the forgiveness of sins. This is a Law. And the 'works of the law', or action that is to be performed is the sacrifice.

Third:
How does getting up and brushing teeth or the line of work of a farmer have anything to do with the 'works' we are instructed to do for salvation.

Matt.19
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Keeping the commandments is 'work' and doing this work WILL give salvation. That is if you trust the ONLY one that can grant you salvation.

Fourth:
Trying to tie in 'work' and movement into 'dark' and 'light'? And then saying the Law was the map?
Like I said above, EVERYTIME the word 'work' is used in the NT, it ALWAYS refer to an acts, deeds or action.

So if you are trying to say that the 'work' you do can lead to darkness or light I can see that.

So yes....I fully understand the difference between the word 'work' and the word 'law'.

The word 'Work' is ALWAYS used in the NT as an act, deed or actions.
The word 'Work" alone, never represents the Law.
The word 'Work' is never associated with an emotion like 'hate'.

 

[stovebolts]

Sorry, no time today.

I'll look forward to giving you a response tomorrow.

Peace and Grace,

 

[Tomlane]

Eccl12and13, you stated the Sabbath was changed from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week. I would love to know where you got that idea and what do you think is the 7 and the 1st day of the week when the Sabbath is to begin? Also are we to have every day unto the Lord or just the one day someone changed from the 7th to the 1st? One more question, why do you think we need a Sabbath?

I'm very curious as to what you believe, thank you, Tomlane

 

[Eccl12and13]

Eccl12and13, you stated the Sabbath was changed from the 7th day of the week to the 1st day of the week. I would love to know where you got that idea and what do you think is the 7 and the 1st day of the week when the Sabbath is to begin? Also are we to have every day unto the Lord or just the one day someone changed from the 7th to the 1st? One more question, why do you think we need a Sabbath?

I'm very curious as to what you believe, thank you, Tomlane

I'll start by answering your last question first:

It is not I who think we need a Sabbath. I had NO choice in the matter as far as what to do on the Sabbath nor when it should be observed. I am only doing what I've been told. Just as a child is supposed to do when a parent says to do something. Just as a servent is to obey his master. It is God that commands us to KEEP HIS SABBATH:

Exod.20
[1] And God spake all these words, saying,
[8] Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
[9] Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
[10] But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

This is where I got the commandment. From the word of God. I also know that God's Sabbath is to be kept on the 7th day of the week. And He also gave me some instructions on how to keep His Sabbath. Now was the Sabbath, or any of Gods laws, ONLY for the nation of Israel? Let's read:

Num.15
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[14] And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do.
[15] One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD.
[16] One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
Exod.12
[49] One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

This is how I know that God is truly, "...no respecter of persons."Acts10:34. God has ONE law. It is the SAME for the nation of Israel and those that choose to follow the God of the nation of Israel. That is the choice I made. To obey and follow the God of Israel.

Let me pose a question: Would it be fair for God to impose (1) set of laws on one child, and a different set of laws on another child and BOTH children receive the SAME reward? Whould it be fair to tell one child they cannot do something and if they don't they will be rewarded, while the other child is able to DO that which his brother CANNOT but he still receives the same reward as his brother that could not? Would YOU want to be judged by a judge like that? Abrahame asked that same question of the ONLY who would judge:

Gen.18
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Now on to the rest of your questions. Which is the 7th day and which is the 1st day of the week?

Matt.28
[1] In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

From this scripture we know that God's Sabbath if the day BEFORE the first day of the week. And since there are only (7) days in a week, that means God's Sabbath MUST be the 7th day. From this scripture we also find that God's Sabbath did not change from what it was in the OT to what was observed in the NT. The same Sabbath from creation had been kept until the time of Jesus, about 4000 years.

Now let's see what the apostles kept:

Acts 13
[13] Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
[14] But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
[42] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
[44] And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

So we see that God's Sabbath was still the 7th day and it was still the custom of the apostles to keep it.

Now let's see what will be kept in the future:

Isa.66
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

So we see, even in the kingdom, God's Sabbath will still be kept. And why is that? Because it is a Law from God:

Exod.31
[16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

So when was God's Sabbath changed from the 7th day to the 1st day? More important should be WHO can change God's Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day? Because if God did not do it who can? Can any of the apostles take it upon themselves to CHANGE the word of God?

Please note this: There were MANY men of God that made mistakes. Some said things they should not have said (Moses). Some did things they should not have done (David). But in ALL, GOD"S LAWS STILL STAND. Their actions did not remove or take away God's laws. God simply forgave them, but His laws always remain.

So did God's Sabbath change? Of cousre not! It is still the (7th) day of the week.

The real question is: WHO WILL YOU OBEY?

 

[Tomlane]

Eccl12and13, how do you deal with verses like the ones I'm going to give you now.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 (KJV)

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 [b]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight[/b]: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:19-20 (KJV)

Since in your attempt to keep the law, God has said you have fallen from grace and the law only show you are guilty before God and no one not even you can be justified by the law so why do you want to continue in a loosing deal you have made with yourself?

Also by continuing in keeping the Sabbath you have to keep all of God's laws and you have to do so since birth. The scriptures is very plain in that Christ, God in the flesh is the only who ever kept the law for all of us, so why defy God?

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Tim 1:5-10 (KJV)

If you will read the above verses carefully the Law is only for the lawless and disobedient and the law condemns those who are under it. The law will not save you. You need Christ and rest from you lawless works in Him only. The sabbath was only a type or shadow of the Christ who was to come and not that he is come we find our rest in him from our labors.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30 (KJV)

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 4:15 (KJV)

Tomlane

 

[Eccl12and13]

Eccl12and13, how do you deal with verses like the ones I'm going to give you now.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 (KJV)

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 [b]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight[/b]: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 3:19-20 (KJV)

Since in your attempt to keep the law, God has said you have fallen from grace and the law only show you are guilty before God and no one not even you can be justified by the law so why do you want to continue in a loosing deal you have made with yourself?

Also by continuing in keeping the Sabbath you have to keep all of God's laws and you have to do so since birth. The scriptures is very plain in that Christ, God in the flesh is the only who ever kept the law for all of us, so why defy God?

Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1 Tim 1:5-10 (KJV)

If you will read the above verses carefully the Law is only for the lawless and disobedient and the law condemns those who are under it. The law will not save you. You need Christ and rest from you lawless works in Him only. The sabbath was only a type or shadow of the Christ who was to come and not that he is come we find our rest in him from our labors.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30 (KJV)

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 4:15 (KJV)

Tomlane

I try my best to answer questions that I'm given. At times I can't get to all of them. But I find that most of my questions are ignored. Here is a question I posed that was not answered in your reply:

Let me pose a question: Would it be fair for God to impose (1) set of laws on one child, and a different set of laws on another child and BOTH children receive the SAME reward? Whould it be fair to tell one child they cannot do something and if they don't they will be rewarded, while the other child is able to DO that which his brother CANNOT but he still receives the same reward as his brother that could not? Would YOU want to be judged by a judge like that? Abrahame asked that same question of the ONLY who would judge:

The threads I post are not to change the minds of those God has given a delusion:

2 Thes.2
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

My post are for those that God will reveal the truth to. So please, go on with your belief. I know that someone reading these threads is learning something, or asking questions, or saying to themselves, "You know....he's got a point. Maybe I should look at this from a different angle."

 

[Tomlane]

Eccl12and13, you mentioned in another post you have to have works for salvation just what kind of works are those. You are very vague on some points you make in this last post. Thanks

Tomlane

 

[Eccl12and13]

Eccl12and13, you mentioned in another post you have to have works for salvation just what kind of works are those. You are very vague on some points you make in this last post. Thanks

Tomlane

Let me pose a question: Would it be fair for God to impose (1) set of laws on one child, and a different set of laws on another child and BOTH children receive the SAME reward? Would it be fair to tell one child they cannot do something and if they don't they will be rewarded, while the other child is able to DO that which his brother CANNOT but he still receives the same reward as his brother that could not? Would YOU want to be judged by a judge like that? Abrahame asked that same question of the ONLY who would judge:

Gen.18
[25] That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Is God a respecter of persons?

Acts 10
[34] Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

If you believe God is fair and not a respecter of persons, how can He say to the Jews keep my laws and if you do not you will be punished, but to the Gentiles, you do not have to keep my laws, as a matter of fact, I will still reward you even if you do not keep my laws. I will give the Gentiles the SAME reward as the Jews, but you Gentiles are free from the law!

Is that a righteous judge?

 

[Eccl12and13]

Eccl12and13, you mentioned in another post you have to have works for salvation just what kind of works are those. You are very vague on some points you make in this last post. Thanks

Tomlane

Not quite. All I did was to quote James:

James 2
[14] What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
[17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
[18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
[25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James is saying it takes faith WITH works for salvation. Faith along does give salvation. Let's read what we ALL will be judged by:

Rev.20
[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Did it say 'based on you FAITH you will be judged'?

Did it say based on your BELIEF in Christ you will be judged?

Thats why James said in the 19th verse: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Even the devils believe. They know there is a God and they know what He will do. But do they perform the works that are needed to receive the kingdom. Or do they perform 'other works'? Works that will have then going to the lake?

Once again, I am NOT saying that WORKS alone earns salvation. It is BECAUSE of your FAITH, that you DO the works needed for salvation.

Abraham believed and trusted God all the way up the mountain, but it was not until:
Gen.22
[10] And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
[11] And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
[12] And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

 

[Tomlane]

Eccl12and13, when I cut through your wordy and murky reply about works it seems you combine work and grace for salvation. Is this correct. Just a simple yes or now will suffice, thank you.

Tomlane