How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[jeff77]

Hi Stan1953

I just wanted to point out that Dolous and several others have provided a ton of scripture on this topic in other threads. We have been having this discussion for a long time. I even found an old thread I started over a year ago and several of us here now were discussing the same thing back then. I started this thread because I got tired of people not getting a long. For some reason the "hell" threads get closed every time. I thought maybe since we have gone over the scripture enough times that we know we disagree, why not find something we can agree on. For example we agree that the punishment is everlasting. Also chessman pointed out that most all of us agree with what the description of hell is as stated in the TOS.

 

[Stan1953]

That's OK because they were getting longer and longer and not really proving anything but that you do have a rock solid bias in this regard and won't support or corroborate it.

 

[Stan1953]

Hi Stan1953
I just wanted to point out that Dolous and several others have provided a ton of scripture on this topic in other threads. We have been having this discussion for a long time. I even found an old thread I started over a year ago and several of us here now were discussing the same thing back then. I started this thread because I got tired of people not getting a long. For some reason the "hell" threads get closed every time. I thought maybe since we have gone over the scripture enough times that we know we disagree, why not find something we can agree on. For example we agree that the punishment is everlasting. Also chessman pointed out that most all of us agree with what the description of hell is as stated in the TOS.

Thanks Jeff and my point was that nothing corroborative was provided here by anyone. I'm not even sure there is a ton of scripture on the issue, but IMO each thread should be dealt with on it's own merit as people do come and go. I've only been here a while and based on all the hostility I have encountered I'm not sure I'll stick around.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen people on other forums say "I've already provided scripture before to people", to whom they have never debated or discussed the issue with.
I personally have no problem using the scripture I know on each and every thread I post on.

 

[jeff77]

Thanks Jeff and my point was that nothing corroborative was provided here by anyone. I'm not even sure there is a ton of scripture on the issue, but IMO each thread should be dealt with on it's own merit as people do come and go. I've only been here a while and based on all the hostility I have encountered I'm not sure I'll stick around.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen people on other forums say "I've already provided scripture before to people", to whom they have never debated or discussed the issue with.
I personally have no problem using the scripture I know on each and every thread I post on.

I think some debate is good and I think it is a good thing to here others views. I don't understand why people get hostile on the forums? We don't even know each other and most of us probably live half way across the country or the world from each other, so it seems kind of silly.

 

[Stan1953]

I think some debate is good and I think it is a good thing to here others views. I don't understand why people get hostile on the forums? We don't even know each other and most of us probably live half way across the country or the world from each other, so it seems kind of silly.

Yep, but I know I have an ego as all people so it's always a matter of whether it's my ego/pride that makes me angry. Usually the truth doesn't require anger. Mind you we are instructed to anger yet sin not, so I guess it has it's place.

 

[agua.]

I think some debate is good and I think it is a good thing to here others views. I don't understand why people get hostile on the forums? We don't even know each other and most of us probably live half way across the country or the world from each other, so it seems kind of silly.

I think everyone would do well to take note of how Butch5 and Deborah13 conduct themselves in these controversial topic threads. They always bring solid data and line of reasoning along with good manners. ( The moderators are like this too of course ).

 

[TimothyW]

Thanks Jeff and my point was that nothing corroborative was provided here by anyone. I'm not even sure there is a ton of scripture on the issue, but IMO each thread should be dealt with on it's own merit as people do come and go. I've only been here a while and based on all the hostility I have encountered I'm not sure I'll stick around.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen people on other forums say "I've already provided scripture before to people", to whom they have never debated or discussed the issue with.
I personally have no problem using the scripture I know on each and every thread I post on.

You told Chessman that you have not seen the scriptural support for Conditional Immortality. Here is something I wrote a long time ago, will you address each passage of scripture supporting CI?

Annihilationism, which is better described as the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality has better scriptural support:

Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

 

[TimothyW]

The Proof of Conditional Immortality from Scripture was too much to fit on one post, here is the rest of it.
(Can you see why we don't post all of the evidence we have on EVERY post?)


The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.
There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the lost go to Hell when they die where they are tormented alive for all eternity.
Not one verse says it, and the Bible as a whole does not support Eternal Conscious Torment.

 

[chessman]

The Gospel Message is good news, because God has provided a way of escape from everlasting destruction for all of mankind.

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus was going around all the towns and the villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and every sickness. ​

Hmm, the "good news" is good for a reason. The reason is, people need healing from that disease of sin that kills them. Destroy's their body and soul in Hell, actually.

Acts 10:36, 43 As for the message that he sent to the sons of Israel, proclaiming the good news of peace through Jesus Christ—this one is Lord of all— ...To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”
​

No forgiveness, no Jesus, and ye receive the wages of sin. Death (Rom 6:23). Not really complicated.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57 Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! ​

Hmm, gives who the victory over _______?
Death or torment?

Watering down the Truth will not get people to know the Truth.

Amen.
Nor has birth rewarded people with immortality, even one of torment, via some conceptual idea of an immortal soul/spirit being created at birth/conception.

The Unforgiveness of sin leads to death, perishing, destruction. You know, the destruction that is of the everlasting kind.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. ​

 

[JLB]

You told Chessman that you have not seen the scriptural support for Conditional Immortality. Here is something I wrote a long time ago, will you address each passage of scripture supporting CI?

Annihilationism, which is better described as the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality has better scriptural support:

Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

How long does the destruction last?

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10

And again -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:41,46

What is the fate of the devil and his angels, as Jesus has sentenced those who are cursed to the same fate.


10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


These plain and clear words can not be changed or overruled my the misconceptions and misunderstanding of the word destroy or. Perish.


Tormented Day and Night forever and ever!


JLB

 

[WIP]

Just a friendly reminder: Please back off the personal comments. Let's stick to the topic of the discussion and not our opinions of others.

 

[chessman]

No, just me quoting scripture. So far I haven't see any from you.

Christian forums rely on scripture to arbitrate and support opinions. As you have NOT supplied any then it holds not validity. You also have not even tried to address the scripture that has been quoted.

You do sound contradictory here, but I'm sure you were trying to make some kind of point.

Notice the following Scriptures that DI posted here in this thread:

1.

Hell is not the absence of God, if one interprets literally the passage of Revelation 14:9-11, which states that they are tormented day and night in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb (Jesus).

This would mean that hell is not the absence of God, or separation from God, but the presence of his wrath to exhibit punishment perpetually forever and ever.

2.

Don't forget v.16, where it says that those who believe will not perish (which means to die), not be eternally tormented in hell.

3.

Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Romans 1:32 (ESV)

4.

is it away from his presence as 1 Thessalonians says. Just one example of the contradictions ECT makes of Scripture.

5. and 6.

"Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord." Romans 12:11 (ESV)
...
I believe Matthew 10:28 (ESV) has a more detailed account of this warning.

Would you explain why you've accused DI of not supplying any Scripture in this thread, when clearly he has?

Furthermore, he makes very, very good Biblical points about each of them relative to the OP.

1. and 4. Rev 14:9-11 simply cannot be speaking of Hell as the wicked'd final everlasting place of punishment since it's clearly occuring in the presence of The Lamb. Also, do you think there is daytime and nightime in Hell?

2. the most famous verse in the bible contrasts eternal life with perishing (not tormenting).

3. If the wages of sin is death (and it is) then Hell must be a place of death (and it is, 2nd death).

5. God does not make idle threats/warnings.

Also WRT Matt 10:28, notice that tthe message is more than simply the power of God revealed.

The verse is 1) contrasting the power of God to that of man (true) and 2) Jesus' teaching on what occurs in Hell. Notice that it says God can destroy both the body and soul in Hell. If Jesus intended to simply proclaim the power of God is more than man's power (hypothetically speaking), then Jesus could have said "but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul." and ended His teaching without even mentioning Hell.

But He didn't. He said in Hell. Why? Obviously He knows what will (not just can) occur in Hell. Otherwise, why even mention Hell in the first place?

 

[TimothyW]

How long does the destruction last?

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10

And again -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:41,46

What is the fate of the devil and his angels, as Jesus has sentenced those who are cursed to the same fate.


10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

These plain and clear words can not be changed or overruled my the misconceptions and misunderstanding of the word destroy or. Perish.

Tormented Day and Night forever and ever!

JLB

The destruction is indeed everlasting. Those who will be destroyed will never become undestroyed.
The everlasting punishment is everlasting destruction, not everlasting conscious torment.
And Revelation 20:10 speaks only of the fate of the devil, the false prophet and the beast, and is figurative language anyway. The beast is said elsewhere in Revelation to go to his destruction.


You did not address any other verse in the dozens that I presented. If you read the whole of the Bible, you will agree that the penalty for sin is destruction, not everlasting conscious torment. Will you address the rest of the scriptures in my two large posts? (#47 and #48)

 

[reba]

Hi Stan1953

I just wanted to point out that Dolous and several others have provided a ton of scripture on this topic in other threads. We have been having this discussion for a long time. I even found an old thread I started over a year ago and several of us here now were discussing the same thing back then. I started this thread because I got tired of people not getting a long. For some reason the "hell" threads get closed every time. I thought maybe since we have gone over the scripture enough times that we know we disagree, why not find something we can agree on. For example we agree that the punishment is everlasting. Also chessman pointed out that most all of us agree with what the description of hell is as stated in the TOS.

I think everyone would do well to take note of how Butch5 and Deborah13 conduct themselves in these controversial topic threads. They always bring solid data and line of reasoning along with good manners. ( The moderators are like this too of course ).

Thanks

Way to often being right is more important than dialog..

 

[Stan1953]

You told Chessman that you have not seen the scriptural support for Conditional Immortality. Here is something I wrote a long time ago, will you address each passage of scripture supporting CI?

I'm pretty sure I have not interacted with chessman on this thread.

Annihilationism, which is better described as the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality has better scriptural support:
Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

DEATH in the Bible only refers to the lack of animation of the physical body, as does perish, destruction and any number of metaphoric descriptions.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

It refers to life and death. Nothing afterwards.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Obviously this does not mean what you assert, as the body is not destroyed in hell, it dies before hell. Secondly hell is not eternal, the lake of fire is, and the soul does not always connote our spirit/soul, but our life force in our body.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

The RSB states:
Again, Jesus Himself provides the interpretation (vv. 36–43). The field is the whole world, not just Israel or the church, and God withholds immediate judgment for the sake of the elect who are in the world. The righteous have had to live in the midst of the unrighteous from the beginning.
Weeds are representative of living sinners, as they are in the physical, not spirit/souls.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Again, regardless, no matter how you construe the entomology of the word, the connotation of this word refers to the physical, NOT the meta-physical as many of the verses you have provided here do.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

Yes, their bodies, not their spirit/souls.

I see no reason in going any further as all of these verses are referring to the body and their lack of animation or life. In the case of all living creatures other than man, this would be the end, but in terms of man, this is not the case as Jesus clearly shows in Luke 16:19-31
The common factor in most flawed understanding of scripture is when words are massaged to try and convey something they do not. Death in the Bible is ALWAYS of the BODY, never of the spirit/soul.
As I have clearly shown Matthew 25:41 and Rev 20:10, they both show where the devil, beast, false prophet, and ALL unbelievers will remain FOREVER, in solitude and torment, at the final great white throne judgment.
No matter how unpallatble the lake of fire may be to some, it is God's way.
The Bible teaches the reality of a final place of judgment for the wicked.
Those who spend eternity in hell, do so because they rejected God's love and His provision for salvation.
It is God's desire for everyone to come to Him by faith and receive the salvation that He offers.

 

[reba]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Some day i hope to understand how these verse reconcile to each other 2

 

[Stan1953]

Notice the following Scriptures that DI posted here in this thread:
Would you explain why you've accused DI of not supplying any Scripture in this thread, when clearly he has?

I didn't accuse, so please read my responses carefully. I said I had not seen, my first posts to the OP was #33, and he had not replied to any of my posts with scripture to support his POV. IF he did I probably addressed them correctly.

Furthermore, he makes very, very good Biblical points about each of them relative to the OP.
1. and 4. Rev 14:9-11 simply cannot be speaking of Hell as the wicked final everlasting place of punishment since it's clearly occurring in the presence of The Lamb. Also, do you think there is daytime and nighttime in Hell?
2. the most famous verse in the bible contrasts eternal life with perishing (not tormenting).
3. If the wages of sin is death (and it is) then Hell must be a place of death (and it is, 2nd death).
5. God does not make idle threats/warnings.
Also WRT Matt 10:28, notice that the message is more than simply the power of God revealed.

I don't remember this being addressed to me or posted after my first post and as you have apparently only copy & pasted what he posted, I can actually look at his posts in context. I'm not really sure why he doesn't answer me or why those that are con on this thread seem to answer each others posts?

The verse is 1) contrasting the power of God to that of man (true) and 2) Jesus' teaching on what occurs in Hell. Notice that it says God can destroy both the body and soul in Hell. If Jesus intended to simply proclaim the power of God is more than man's power (hypothetically speaking), then Jesus could have said "but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul." and ended His teaching without even mentioning Hell.
But He didn't. He said in Hell. Why? Obviously He knows what will (not just can) occur in Hell. Otherwise, why even mention Hell in the first place?

and there is also Luke 3:13 NET, so either there is a contradiction between Matthew and Luke, or your understanding of Matthew is flawed. No many can consign a soul to hell, and hell in this regard is the place Jesus identifies in Luke 16 where the rich man was.
Both hell and hades are thrown into he lake of fire in Rev 20.
I don't mind dealing with scripture presented, but it's frustrating when it is not reciprocated by those on the other side.

 

[MarkT]

You told Chessman that you have not seen the scriptural support for Conditional Immortality. Here is something I wrote a long time ago, will you address each passage of scripture supporting CI?

Annihilationism, which is better described as the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality has better scriptural support:

Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

This is a fallacious argument, the argument from ignorance, where if something is unknown then it must be false.

For example - Jim goes to Cleveland. He writes a letter home. Jim doesn't mention Cleveland in his letter. Since Cleveland is not mentioned in his letter therefore Jim did not go to Cleveland.

So the scriptures you quoted do not support your conclusion. Your conclusion is what you want to believe.

Jesus said evil doers would be thrown into the furnace of fire. There they would weep and gnash their teeth. Mt. 13:42 and 50. He didn't say for a little while. But speaking of hell, he said, 'where their worm does not die'. Mark 9:48 Their worm probably refers to the shrivelled up body being shrivelled up like a worm in the fire. They will never die and the fire will never go out. There they will weep and gnash their teeth forever.

 

[JLB]

The destruction is indeed everlasting. Those who will be destroyed will never become undestroyed.
The everlasting punishment is everlasting destruction, not everlasting conscious torment.
And Revelation 20:10 speaks only of the fate of the devil, the false prophet and the beast, and is figurative language anyway. The beast is said elsewhere in Revelation to go to his destruction.


You did not address any other verse in the dozens that I presented. If you read the whole of the Bible, you will agree that the penalty for sin is destruction, not everlasting conscious torment. Will you address the rest of the scriptures in my two large posts? (#47 and #48)

I addressed them with the scriptures I posted.

Here it is for you again.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

These that Jesus cursed are sentenced to the same fate as thd devil and his angels.

Into everlasting fire.

Tormented day and night forever.

JLB

 

[TimothyW]

I addressed them with the scriptures I posted.

Here it is for you again.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

These that Jesus cursed are sentenced to the same fate as thd devil and his angels.

Into everlasting fire.

Tormented day and night forever.

JLB

Hmmm, the scriptures I posted said that the lost are destroyed by fire, and the scriptures you posted say that the lost go into the fire. It's too bad you and I can't come to an understanding of these verses so that we can reconcile them somehow. How about this? The lost depart into the fire where they are destroyed by the fire. That's the eternal punishment.

But the verses you posted certainly do not refute annihilationism.