How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[MarkT]

But the fire is everlasting. If they are destroyed, then the fire would not be everlasting. There would not be a need for an everlasting fire if they are annihilated. An eternal destruction is a destruction without end, on going, never ending.

 

[Brother Mike]

But the fire is everlasting. If they are destroyed, then the fire would not be everlasting. There would not be a need for an everlasting fire if they are annihilated. An eternal destruction is a destruction without end, on going, never ending.

Correct. Some get confused when Jesus said some shall have eternal punishment, some eternal life. If one is not true, then the other is not true. Common sense goes a long way.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Stan1953]

Hmmm, the scriptures I posted said that the lost are destroyed by fire, and the scriptures you posted say that the lost go into the fire. It's too bad you and I can't come to an understanding of these verses so that we can reconcile them somehow. How about this? The lost depart into the fire where they are destroyed by the fire. That's the eternal punishment.
But the verses you posted certainly do not refute annihilationism.

Our purpose is not to make a verse say what we want it to or cherry pick verses that seem to eisegetically fit our POV.
Matt 25:41 and Rev 20:10 must both be read to see the total picture. They both support the eternal process of damnation. They were never meant to refute what Jesus clearly said was an end result of unbelief.

 

[agua.]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Some day i hope to understand how these verse reconcile to each other 2

Rebs try this on for size. Everyone dies right ( aside from the Saints who will be alive when Jesus returns and arguably Enoch and Elijah ) because everyone has sinned so the first death isn't an eternal consequence for anyone. When we think of eternal damnation it's like the condemnation that comes from judgement and because this sin against the Holy Ghost is so despicable the consequence is eternal ie. into the second second death they go where's there's no chance of reprieve.


G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

 

[chessman]

I didn't accuse, so please read my responses carefully.

I have two comments in reply to your answer above:
1. Yes, you did accuse him of not posting Scripture in this thread. And did so again.
2. I did read your responses (all of them) very carefully and considered them for their truthful and on topic content. I found multiple errors in them as a result of my careful reading and consideration of your posts. One error I pointed out by asking you to clarify is why you said he’d not posted any Scripture in this thread when he had actually done so several times. Your response to my question is; “I didn’t accuse” and “I said I had not seen”

WRT 1.

... you do have a rock solid bias in this regard and won't support or corroborate it.

Christian forums rely on scripture to arbitrate and support opinions. As you have NOT supplied any then it holds not validity. You also have not even tried to address the scripture that has been quoted.

WRT 2.
Click the little up arrow right next to your username in the above accusative quote of yours (currently post # 39). It takes you back to your entire post, so that someone can read the entire post (not just a portion of it). In your post, you quoted DI’s earlier post (#38) in which, in fact, he had supplied multiple Scriptures (Rom 12:11, Rev 14:10, John 2:17, Ps 30:5 and Matt 10:28) in the very post that you accused him of not supplying any Scriptures. In fact, you even quoted one of them that he referenced where he was addressing Rev 14:10.
WRT “I had not seen”, can you now clarify for me how you didn’t see his Scriptural references in post #38 since you literally quoted one of them (Rev 14:10) in your post# 39 (but not the rest of them)?
Also, I noticed your first post # 33, quoted the OP (original post) so I assume you’ve read the entire “thread” - a long, thin line of something and thus would have carefully read his other Scriptures in this thread about C.I. and the Gospel.


Also, lest I be accused of ignoring your Scriptural references on this OP topic and not carefully reading your posts, you said in regards to the ongoing discussion of Jesus’ teaching in Matt 10:28:

and there is also Luke 3:13 NET, so either there is a contradiction between Matthew and Luke, or your understanding of Matthew is flawed.

Matthew 10:28 Lexham English Bible (LEB) 28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, but instead be afraid of the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Versus

Luke 3:13 Lexham English Bible (LEB) 13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what you are ordered to. …”​

I have no idea what you mean here. There’s no contradiction here. These are two different subjects. Matt 10:28 is Jesus’ teaching on Hell (relative to the OP) and Luke 3:13 is John The Baptist teaching on the proper way to collect Caesar’s taxes. My understanding of Luke and/or Matt is not flawed, I think your post(s) are, however.

 

[TimothyW]

Our purpose is not to make a verse say what we want it to or cherry pick verses that seem to eisegetically fit our POV.

I agree, and I don't believe that I have done that. I haven't "cherry picked" a few verses to fit my POV, I've gotten my POV from a careful study of the Bible.

Matt 25:41 and Rev 20:10 must both be read to see the total picture.

I agree, and also all of the verses that I posted must be read in order to see the total picture.

They both support the eternal process of damnation.

At first glance they might. But are they incompatible with destruction?
Matthew 25:41 says “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Do you think that sending someone into eternal fire is incompatible with that person being destroyed by that fire? Matthew 25:41 doesn't disprove conditional immortality at all. And if you also take all of the verses that I posted into consideration, this clearly points to destruction in the fire, not everlasting torment in the fire. Also consider Matthew 10:28 which tells us to fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna. Jesus tells us we should fear specifically because the soul can be destroyed. Fire destroys what it burns. Being sent into fire destroys the one sent onto it. And Jesus said that we should fear this destruction. You need to read all of the Bible in order to see the total picture, not just Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10.

But how about Revelation 20:10? Does that prove that the lost will not be destroyed as Jesus said in Matthew 7:13 or that they will not perish as he said in John 3:16?
Revelation 20:10 says "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever". Does this verse say anything at all about People? It doesn't. A key to reading Revelation is understanding the symbolism of Revelation. The devil, the beast and the false prophet are not people, even if you read the Symbols of Revelation literally. And if you do read it literally, and if you assume that the devil, beast and false prophet represent all of the lost, you wind up with a contradiction of all of the other passages that say that the wicked will perish, be destroyed and be no more. Revelation 20:10 does not say that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever and ever. And remember that you said yourself that your purpose was not to make a verse say what you want it to or cherry pick a verse that seems to eisegetically fit your POV.

They were never meant to refute what Jesus clearly said was an end result of unbelief.

I agree, and I want you to consider that Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10 were never meant to refute what Jesus clearly said was the end result of unbelief:
Jesus said "the way is wide that leads to destruction". (read for yourself in Matthew 7:13)
He said "fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in gehenna". (Matthew 10:28)
And He said "unless you repent, you will likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)
And the rest of the Bible agrees with Jesus.

It is not my intention to cherry pick one or two verses and use them to overturn the rest of the Bible. The Bible as a whole consistently supports the doctrine of Conditional Immortality, and there is not one verse in the Bible that definitively proves that the lost have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead. Not one verse, and not the Bible as a whole.

 

[TimothyW]

But the fire is everlasting. If they are destroyed, then the fire would not be everlasting. There would not be a need for an everlasting fire if they are annihilated.

The everlasting fire destroys what is put into it. Why do you say "If they are destroyed, then the fire would not be everlasting"? That doesn't logically follow. The fire can continue to burn forever, even if the people have been destroyed long ago.

An eternal destruction is a destruction without end, on going, never ending.

And and eternal "destruction" that does not result in destruction is not a destruction at all.
Eternal destruction is destruction that lasts forever. The person is destroyed and never becomes undestroyed.
And this is specifically what the Bible says will happen to the wicked.
"the way is wide that leads to destruction", Matthew 7:13
"But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed; the future of the wicked shall be cut off." Psalm 37:38

The length of time that the fire burns does not change the outcome for those who are destroyed in the fire. The everlasting fire ensures the complete destruction of the wicked. There is no chance of those who oppose God surviving the eternal fire.

 

[reba]

Guys i know it is difficult please lets drop the personal attacks and responses... When the request to drop the personal battles is ignored then the the heavy editing begins and no one likes that ...
Staff does not like editing...
Realize what we have in our thoughts does not always get understood by the reader...
Apologetics & Theology is not about the poster it is about the Word of God...

Not necessarily directed to the last poster Next step is editing Staff

 

[reba]

Rebs try this on for size. Everyone dies right ( aside from the Saints who will be alive when Jesus returns and arguably Enoch and Elijah ) because everyone has sinned so the first death isn't an eternal consequence for anyone. When we think of eternal damnation it's like the condemnation that comes from judgement and because this sin against the Holy Ghost is so despicable the consequence is eternal ie. into the second second death they go where's there's no chance of reprieve.


G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.

Not seeing the connection agua.

 

[JLB]

Correct. Some get confused when Jesus said some shall have eternal punishment, some eternal life. If one is not true, then the other is not true. Common sense goes a long way.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[chessman]

But the fire is everlasting.

Yes, the Bible calls God’s final judgment of the wicked an ‘everlasting fire’ or by most translations an ‘eternal fire”. I think either English word translated from the Greek word there is fine for our purposes. I’m not sure (though I have a suspicion) why the KJV and NKJV translate the same word once as everlasting and once as eternal, but either way is fine by me. Annihilationism does recognize the wicked’s final judgment/punishment is just as everlasting/eternal as the saved’s eternal life is going to be.
However, what the annihilationist also recognizes is that God’s eternal/everlasting fire is also (and not to be overlooked) a consuming fire. One that burns up the wicked. AND (most importantly), we don’t just come up with this idea out of thin air. It’s Scripturally taught (in my opinion) via the following passages: (please note that any/all ECT poster is welcome to address any of these passages listed below as I wouldn’t want to be taking any out of context toward the final fate of the wicked.). My confusion is, I don’t think God intended for us to assume His eternal fire is not also a consuming fire.

1.

Hebrews 12:29 For indeed our God is a consuming fire.​

[And for a broader context:]

25 Watch out that you do not refuse the one who is speaking! For if those did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, much less will we escape, if we reject the one who warns from heaven, 26 whose voice shook the earth at that time, but now he has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also heaven.”
27 Now the phrase “yet once more” indicates the removal of what is shaken, namely, things that have been created, in order that the things that are not shaken may remain. 28 Therefore, since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us be thankful, through which let us serve God acceptably, with awe and reverence. 29 For indeed our God is a consuming fire.​

[And for an even broader context, ironic to the OP topic ‘The gospel’]

The Example of Jesus’ Suffering
3 For consider the one who endured such hostility [death not torture] by sinners against himself, so that you will not grow weary in your souls [consider Matt 10:28] and give up. 4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood [i.e. die, not suffer torture] as you struggle against sin. 5 And have you completely forgotten the exhortation which instructs you as sons?
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
or give up when you are corrected by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one whom he loves,
and punishes every son whom he accepts.”​

[And again, there are zero examples of God using torture as a final punishment for an extreme crime. Eye for an eye, for some sure. Wiping even for correction of a son, sure. But stoning was always called out for the most serious crimes. Why would God torture peoplefor an infinite amount of time for no corrective purpose? It makes no sense. And it’s NOT the example God warns us of that awaits the wicked.]
Should I go on or would someone like to address the above Heb 12 passage WRT God’s wrath not being described Biblically as a consuming fire? I for one admit it’s an eternal fire. Isn’t it also a consuming fire is the question y’all should be asking yourself. I have.

2.

Isaiah 33:10-14
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
10 “Now I will arise,” says Yahweh.
“Now I will lift myself up proudly;
now I will raise myself.
11 You conceive dry grass, you bring forth stubble;
your breath is a fire; it will consume you.
12 And the peoples will be burning to lime—
they are burned like thorns that have been cut down in the fire.
13 You who are far away, hear what I have done;
and you who are near, know my might!” [see Matt 10:28]
14 Sinners are afraid in Zion;
trembling has seized the godless:
“Who of us can live with devouring fire?
Who of us can live with everlasting consuming hearths?”​

[Please address this passage as well]

3.

Is 66:
Yahweh’s Final Judgment
and he shall curse his enemies.
15 For look! Yahweh will come in fire,
and his chariots like the storm wind,
to give back his anger in wrath,
and his rebuke in flames of fire.
16 For Yahweh enters into judgment on all flesh with fire and his sword,
and those slain by Yahweh shall be many.
17 Those who sanctify themselves
and those who cleanse themselves, to go into the gardens after the one in the middle, eating the flesh of swine and detestable things and rodents together
shall come to an end!” declares Yahweh.​

[Please address this passage as well]

4.

Deut 4:24 for Yahweh your God is a devouring fire, a jealous God.​

5.

Deut 9:3 You should know today that Yahweh your God is the one crossing ahead of you as a devouring fire; he will destroy them, and he will subdue them before you; so you will dispossess them, and you will destroy them quickly, just as Yahweh promised you.​

If they are destroyed, then the fire would not be everlasting.

Excuse my disagreement with you but if they are NOT destroyed, then the fire would not be an everlasting/eternal/consuming/devouring fire.

 

[agua.]

Not seeing the connection agua.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

This refers to the death everyone must/could suffer for the price of sin. Even a believer. It isn't eternal because of the resurrection.

Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

This refers to the second death which only a non believer will suffer ie. it is eternal. Damnation = condemnation from judgement.

 

[reba]

Got it thanks

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes, the Bible calls God’s final judgment of the wicked an ‘everlasting fire’ or by most translations an ‘eternal fire”. I think either English word translated from the Greek word there is fine for our purposes. I’m not sure (though I have a suspicion) why the KJV and NKJV translate the same word once as everlasting and once as eternal, but either way is fine by me. Annihilationism does recognize the wicked’s final judgment/punishment is just as everlasting/eternal as the saved’s eternal life is going to be.

Let's not make the mistake others make who do their best to remove the consequences of ignoring Jesus, the consequences of not being born again as a new type of creature, and ignore the consequences of not becoming a son of God through the redemptive Work of Christ.

The mistake is they take tons of verses that say the dead or no more, they are destroyed and paste that into a eternal place.

(One of many types of scriptures they use, non relevant to being dead after the fact, ZERO describing the state after death.)
Psa 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.

edited reba
God is a consuming fire.................... Where at though?

For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
(Deu 4:24-26)

God is a consuming fire, that they who do not obey shall be consumed in Sheol? Did it say Sheol?

Some wish it did, but all references to God being a consuming fire refers to his anger against the disobedient. It's on land, on earth, before a person dies.

Case 2:
Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
(Deu 9:3)

God is a consuming fire, who will destroy the children of Anak before the face of Israel in Sheol???


Case 3:

Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.
(Heb 12:26-29)

Earth and Heaven the same place as Hades................? Some want it to be.

Case 4:

Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you. And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire. Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
(Isa 33:11-14)

Sheol mentioned anywhere here? Or a Earthly place called Zion?
Why Add something to the Word that is not there............ context!!!

A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.
(Psa 97:3-4)

This fire takes place where? A real fire, or as fire? Takes place in sheol? Or does it say EARTH?
Case 5:
As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem. And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
(Isa 66:13-16)

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
(Rev 20:9)

On earth, or Hades? (Sheol)

And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(Isa 66:21-22)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(Rev 21:1)

Case 6:
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
(Zec 12:1)

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1Th 5:23)
ZERO Scripture, not one....... NADA............ denotes any possibility that a spirit can be destroyed............ NONE. We don't make things up, if it's never mentioned by God in His word...... It's dangerous. We ought to treat teaching others as a very serious matter and stick to scripture only.

Blessings to all.

 

[reba]

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Stan1953]

I agree, and I don't believe that I have done that. I haven't "cherry picked" a few verses to fit my POV, I've gotten my POV from a careful study of the Bible.

Not IMO, but feel free to deal with one scripture at a time and I will reciprocate.

I agree, and also all of the verses that I posted must be read in order to see the total picture.

The problem is that all the scriputres I've seen deal with physical death, NOT meta-physical destruction/obliteration.

At first glance they might. But are they incompatible with destruction?
Matthew 25:41 says “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Do you think that sending someone into eternal fire is incompatible with that person being destroyed by that fire? Matthew 25:41 doesn't disprove conditional immortality at all. And if you also take all of the verses that I posted into consideration, this clearly points to destruction in the fire, not everlasting torment in the fire. Also consider Matthew 10:28 which tells us to fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna. Jesus tells us we should fear specifically because the soul can be destroyed. Fire destroys what it burns. Being sent into fire destroys the one sent onto it. And Jesus said that we should fear this destruction. You need to read all of the Bible in order to see the total picture, not just Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10.

Yes, because Rev 20:10 shows they aren't destroyed by that symbolic fire. It says; They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But how about Revelation 20:10? Does that prove that the lost will not be destroyed as Jesus said in Matthew 7:13 or that they will not perish as he said in John 3:16?
Revelation 20:10 says "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever". Does this verse say anything at all about People? It doesn't. A key to reading Revelation is understanding the symbolism of Revelation. The devil, the beast and the false prophet are not people, even if you read the Symbols of Revelation literally. And if you do read it literally, and if you assume that the devil, beast and false prophet represent all of the lost, you wind up with a contradiction of all of the other passages that say that the wicked will perish, be destroyed and be no more. Revelation 20:10 does not say that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever and ever. And remember that you said yourself that your purpose was not to make a verse say what you want it to or cherry pick a verse that seems to eisegetically fit your POV.

That why you have to use them together to convey the complete picture of what Jesus was showing. You say you agree, but then deal with them separately in an equivocal manner. Also let's not confuse the issues here. Hell and the Lake of Fire are two DIFFERENT places. Hell/Hades is thrown into the lake of fire and ceases to exist afterwards as it is replaced by the lake of fire. You'll notice no spirit/soul was ever destroyed in hell, just as no spirit/soul will ever be destroyed on the lake of fire.

I agree, and I want you to consider that Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 20:10 were never meant to refute what Jesus clearly said was the end result of unbelief:
Jesus said "the way is wide that leads to destruction". (read for yourself in Matthew 7:13)
He said "fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in gehenna". (Matthew 10:28)
And He said "unless you repent, you will likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)
And the rest of the Bible agrees with Jesus.

Correct, they both reinforce what He was revealing/prophesying...eternal damnation, NOT meta-physical obliteration.

It is not my intention to cherry pick one or two verses and use them to overturn the rest of the Bible. The Bible as a whole consistently supports the doctrine of Conditional Immortality, and there is not one verse in the Bible that definitively proves that the lost have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever while they are dead. Not one verse, and not the Bible as a whole.

You have been given them. (Edited, ToS 2.4. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Obadiah)
Feel free to supply scriptures one at a time or as they relate to one another and I can address them as well.

 

[agua.]

Got it thanks

If I keep repeating the same thing over and over will you bonk me with the pin or just pull your hair out :D

 

[chessman]

Let's not make the mistake others make who do their best to remove the consequences of ignoring Jesus, the consequences of not being born again as a new type of creature, and ignore the consequences of not becoming a son of God through the redemptive Work of Christ.

The mistake is they take tons of verses that say the dead or no more, they are destroyed and paste that into a eternal place.


God is a consuming fire.................... Where at though?

Good post. And good question.

I asked for and have received some critical feedback. Thank you.

I breezed through your post but need to fully evaluate each point you make and am rather out of time for now. I fishuth for fish.

Many (if not all) of your points I already know I agree with.

You are right. Some people make the mistake of ignoring the consequences of God's Wrath. Annihilationism, however, does not.

In my post I was rather specifically addressing the one mistaken argument against annihilation so often used. That mistake is to ignore the fact that God's eternal fire is ALSO a consuming fire. A destructive fire.

I think Islam, for example, describes a god that ignores his own justice/wrath rather arbitrarily. But that's off topic.


Let me consider your argument that the eternal fire that ALSO consumes is not meant to refer to the wicked's spirit but rather everything else that is a human being As I do, maybe you could address why you think the Isaiah passages are titled; God's Final Judgment. I found that rather obviously an a appropriate title.

As I evaluate each of the passages and what you said about them that you mentioned much more carefully, I will say that I did not notice any that taught this idea (the spirit of a wicked man is never destroyed) right off the bat to persuasive.

Are you aware of any that specifically says God's consuming fire leaves the wicked's soul/spirit un-destroyed?


I've long since ditched the notion that anybody other than God himself has immortality (our soul/spirit included) so I need something else to be persuaded that created spirits cannot be consumed on Earth or in Hell, if in fact all those consuming fire passages merely means body and soul on Earth, but not spirits in Hell tormented forever. Tormented, by the way, by a fire that consumes. It seems like another oxymoron to me.

Especially since that consuming fire is said to be an example for the wicked's final fate (not just an Earthly fate).


Please address:
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
2 Peter 2:6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, [via His consuming fire] having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

 

[reba]

Brother Mike and others...

Jesus described Hades.... (Hell) as a place where the righteous dead went, and where the others went. Jesus told us what Abraham said, and gave a correct account. Some believe Jesus lied and misrepresented Abraham by calling it some parable, though it matches no other parable he told, giving names and exact places. This is how corrupt people have become that call themselves believers, to assume that Jesus whom there was no sin, lied and made up things about someone that never happened.

People who believe Jesus taught in parables do not believe Jesus lied. He did teach in parables. This kind of trash talk needs to stop.... To read a passage of Scripture as a parable or not is not calling anyone especially Jesus a liar...It is a different view.... this nonsense will stop.... STAFF

 

[Stan1953]

As I am an other, I have no idea what this means. What exactly is the nonsense that needs to stop?
EDITED Reba

1.3: .... If a member disagrees with a Moderator's action, they are not to take their dispute public.