How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[agua.]

As I am an other, I have no idea what this means. What exactly is the nonsense that needs to stop?
I didn't see that Mike lied or called anyone here a liar.

I'm an other too and it's pretty clear to me. When someone suggests another christian must think Jesus is lying when they hold a different interpretation of a passage is inappropriate. Two people can disagree with what Jesus means and neither is implying He is lying. One of them is simply interpreting what Jesus is saying incorrectly..

For example if you have an incorrect understanding of something Jesus said does this mean you are suggesting Jesus lied ? I'm confident no one thinks Jesus lied but many may be mistaken.

 

[Stan1953]

I'm an other too and it's pretty clear to me. When someone suggests another christian must think Jesus is lying when they hold a different interpretation of a passage is inappropriate. Two people can disagree with what Jesus means and neither is implying He is lying. One of them is simply interpreting what Jesus is saying incorrectly..
For example if you have an incorrect understanding of something Jesus said does this mean you are suggesting Jesus lied ? I'm confident no one thinks Jesus lied but many may be mistaken.

Where was that said in what was quoted?

 

[reba]

 

[agua.]

Where was that said in what was quoted?

"Some believe Jesus lied"

 

[reba]

Topic is
How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

 

[reba]

A few scripture battles, this is one as is osas that go in circles in my head/heart seems one can find supporting scriptures from all or both sides...
I can read this post and say yeah that sounds good then read that post and say that sounds good. 2

 

[agua.]

A few scripture battles, this is one as is osas that go in circles in my head/heart seems one can find supporting scriptures from all or both sides...
I can read this post and say yeah that sounds good then read that post and say that sounds good. 2

Do you want me to explain it again :biggrin

 

[TimothyW]

The problem is that all the scriputres I've seen deal with physical death, NOT meta-physical destruction/obliteration.

I disagree. Matthew 10:28 says "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Jesus is not referring to so called "physical death" when he says "fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell". The soul doesn't survive being destroyed in hell. This is destruction. The soul that is destroyed in hell is not tormented alive forever in hell instead of being destroyed.

 

[Stan1953]

I disagree. Matthew 10:28 says "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Jesus is not referring to so called "physical death" when he says "fear the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell". The soul doesn't survive being destroyed in hell. This is destruction. The soul that is destroyed in hell is not tormented alive forever in hell instead of being destroyed.

He sure is definitely referring to physical death, as that is what death is, physical, not spiritual. Hell/Hades is NOT the lake of fire, and Rev 20 shows all those who are in Hell/Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire after their resurrection and judgment. Their bodies will be destroyed a second time but their spirits never will. That is why it is called the second death.
Matthew 10:28 needs to understood within the context of other verses that Jesus spoke of Hell in.
Luke 12:5 and Mark 9:43 are two you should also look at. In the case of Matt 10:28 the soul here is about the control and power of man in his lifetime, his life essence. The English word "soul" is a translation of the Greek word psuche and from the Hebrew word nephesh. Both words mean "a living, breathing creature," referring to man or animal. "Soul" never means something immortal inside of man or animal.

 

[digging]

I've tried to read all the posts here but perhaps I missed one. Since immortality is a GIFT based on faith how can an unfaithful one have any part of themselves continue forever? The only thing I see as being forever is Gods decision to remove the unfaithful from existence. They will be uncreated.

Romans 6:23 NAS
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Digging

 

[Stan1953]

I've tried to read all the posts here but perhaps I missed one. Since immortality is a GIFT based on faith how can an unfaithful one have any part of themselves continue forever? The only thing I see as being forever is Gods decision to remove the unfaithful from existence. They will be uncreated.

Romans 6:23 NAS
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Digging

Salvation is our gift, and eternal life is our inheritance. Not quite the same thing. The reward is still greater than the punishment however.

 

[agua.]

I've tried to read all the posts here but perhaps I missed one. Since immortality is a GIFT based on faith how can an unfaithful one have any part of themselves continue forever? The only thing I see as being forever is Gods decision to remove the unfaithful from existence. They will be uncreated.

Romans 6:23 NAS
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Digging

Yes good point !

 

[TimothyW]

He sure is definitely referring to physical death, as that is what death is, physical, not spiritual. Hell/Hades is NOT the lake of fire, and Rev 20 shows all those who are in Hell/Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire after their resurrection and judgment. Their bodies will be destroyed a second time but their spirits never will. That is why it is called the second death.
Matthew 10:28 needs to understood within the context of other verses that Jesus spoke of Hell in.
Luke 12:5 and Mark 9:43 are two you should also look at. In the case of Matt 10:28 the soul here is about the control and power of man in his lifetime, his life essence. The English word "soul" is a translation of the Greek word psuche and from the Hebrew word nephesh. Both words mean "a living, breathing creature," referring to man or animal. "Soul" never means something immortal inside of man or animal.

I don't believe that the soul is an immortal immaterial substance that lives on when the person dies.

I believe that we receive eternal life from Christ by being resurrected to life and actually being alive. And this life is eternal. Those who perish do not receive eternal life. Those who are dead do not have eternal life. I believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead when Jesus Christ returns and those who are on his side will be resurrected and will live forever, while those who oppose Him will be resurrected only to be sent to their second death. Some people tell me that it is wildly inefficient for God to resurrect some of the dead only to send them back to their deaths. I can only say to them that this is necessary for God. Probably because God has a moral issue with sending someone to be destroyed without first judging them.

Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:5, and Mark 9:43 are not convincing me that the lost remain alive forever in hell being tormented forever while they are dead. According to the Bible, the wicked will perish and will be no more. Eternal life or Immortality is a gift from God to those who put their faith in Him. Those who reject Him do not receive the gift of eternal life.

 

[JLB]

And Revelation 20:10 speaks only of the fate of the devil, the false prophet and the beast, and is figurative language anyway. The beast is said elsewhere in Revelation to go to his destruction.(#47 and #48)

Only of the fate of the devil?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

They will be tormented...

They is a reference to the context of those defined in the passage.

They is more than one, ie; plural.

The Devil, the beast and the false prophet.


Furthermore, Jesus said -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

All those Jesus cursed suffer the same fate as the Devil.

Everlasting fire... And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


THEY will be tormented.... Not cease to exist.

 

[digging]

JLB,

In order to be 'tormented' they way you are perceiving or trying to say is the interpretation, is to say immortality is also gifted to the wicked and the Devil?

It find it interesting that you can read the account of the sheep and the goats and see that Jesus is using symbolism for the people but then it becomes difficult to see how the symbolism continues.

How can a spirit being 'burn'? Fire is something connected to the material creation.

Are all the wicked literally standing to the left of Jesus?
.
No they are not and thus like all the other illustrations Jesus used to teach we need to strive to get the spiritual 'sense' of it which is not always easy even his apostles had a hard time knowing when he was speaking literally or symbolically.

Digging

 

[JLB]

JLB,

In order to be 'tormented' they way you are perceiving or trying to say is the interpretation, is to say immortality is also gifted to the wicked and the Devil?

It find it interesting that you can read the account of the sheep and the goats and see that Jesus is using symbolism for the people but then it becomes difficult to see how the symbolism continues.

Are all the wicked literally standing to the left of Jesus?

No they are not and thus like all the other illustrations Jesus used to teach we need to strive to get the 'sense' of it all.

Digging

Ok what is your sense of this phrase - they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

They includes those who are mentioned: the devil, the beast, the false prophet.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

And again - He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone...

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest. Revelation 14:9-11


What is you sense of what is being taught here by this language.

Tormented with fire and brimstone.


So far this applies to:

The devil
The beast
The false prophet
Anyone who worships the beast and takes the mark

In addition, Jesus said -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


So everlasting punishment in everlasting fire would also apply to those who have been placed on Jesus left hand, when He comes in all His glory with His angels and is seated on His Throne with all the nations before Him.

I think you can see by the scriptures, that tormented in fire day and night forever and ever, applies to more than just the devil.

JLB

 

[digging]

Well brimstone is sulfur and that is a physical element of creation I don't see it being able to effect a spirit being in any way, as well how can fire??? Fire is simply a chemical reaction that occurs on earth, elements being changed around back into gases and such.

This strongly points to this being a symbolic illustration like many other vs's in Revelation.

For myself this language is being used to communicate to us as physical being the totally unchangeable outcome of God's decision, this decision once enacted is forever.

Digging

 

[digging]

Here is another scripture for us to think about, the account of the furnace and the angel in Daniel 3:20 He commanded certain valiant warriors who were in his army to tie up Shadrach,Meshach and Abed-nego in order to cast them into the furnace of blazing fire. 21 Then these men weretied up in their trousers, their coats, their caps and their other clothes, and were cast into the midst of thefurnace of blazing fire. 22 For this reason , because the king's command was urgent and the furnace had been made extremely hot, the flame of the fire slew those men who carried up Shadrach, Meshach andAbed-nego. 23 But these three men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, fell into the midst of the furnaceof blazing fire still tied up. 24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded and stood up in haste ; hesaid to his high officials, "Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire ?" They replied to the king, "Certainly, O king." 25 He said, "Look ! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods !

If anything this account shows us that spirit beings can not be hurt in anyway by a hot fire.

Digging

 

[JLB]

Well brimstone is sulfur and that is a physical element of creation I don't see it being able to effect a spirit being in any way, as well how can fire??? Fire is simply a chemical reaction that occurs on earth, elements being changed around back into gases and such.

This strongly points to this being a symbolic illustration like many other vs's in Revelation.

For myself this language is being used to communicate to us as physical being the totally unchangeable outcome of God's decision, this decision once enacted is forever.

Digging

So you don't believe that there is a hell with fire prepared for the devil and his angels and those whom Jesus cursed.

It all just symbolic?


JLB

 

[Stan1953]

I don't believe that the soul is an immortal immaterial substance that lives on when the person dies.
I believe that we receive eternal life from Christ by being resurrected to life and actually being alive. And this life is eternal. Those who perish do not receive eternal life. Those who are dead do not have eternal life. I believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead when Jesus Christ returns and those who are on his side will be resurrected and will live forever, while those who oppose Him will be resurrected only to be sent to their second death. Some people tell me that it is wildly inefficient for God to resurrect some of the dead only to send them back to their deaths. I can only say to them that this is necessary for God. Probably because God has a moral issue with sending someone to be destroyed without first judging them.
Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:5, and Mark 9:43 are not convincing me that the lost remain alive forever in hell being tormented forever while they are dead. According to the Bible, the wicked will perish and will be no more. Eternal life or Immortality is a gift from God to those who put their faith in Him. Those who reject Him do not receive the gift of eternal life.

That is clear TW. Wrong but clear.
I've provided you with my view of the scripture and you won't accept it. That Jesus tells us in the Gospels and His last Revelation that the lake of fire will exist forever should sway your but sadly it does not so there is nothing more I can say to you as you mind is made up. All I can leave you with is that i believe you have been properly instructed. BTW are you SDA?

Pink edits by reba