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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

turnorburn said:
I've found the source where you've been getting fed this doctrine Timothy, the man is a false teacher..:yes

tob
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Greg Boyd is okay, but he is not my teacher. (Edited, ToS 2.8, Do not announce who is on your ignore list. Obadiah.)
 
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Forever is forever. Being dead forever is being dead forever. Being destroyed is being destroyed. Perishing means perishing.
People who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell will even question the meaning of the words Death, Destroy, Perish, Consumed by Fire, Fire (by saying that it is magic fire that doesn't really burn up what is put into it) and so on.
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Did you look up hell in the dictionary?

According to Rev. Death will be cast into the lake of fire. So that out will be eliminated. So you can forget death. That ending isn't going to work. The smoke of their torment is going to go up forever and ever. That's the way it's gonna be. They will enter into eternal punishment. They will wish they were dead. In fact, they will wish they were never born.

You can call people who believe that the wages of sin really is death cowards if it makes you happy.
Try standing up for the truth that those who reject God will perish instead of being burned alive in hell for all eternity and see for yourself how much courage it takes. Anyone can hide in the crowd that believes in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. That doesn't take any courage at all.
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I already explain what Paul meant by the wages of sin and death. He was talking about the law. And I already explained how Jesus satisfied the law. So what does this prove regarding the lake of fire? Nothing. It's totally unrelated to what we are talking about.
 
MarkT said:
Did you look up hell in the dictionary?

According to Rev. Death will be cast into the lake of fire. So that out will be eliminated. So you can forget death. That ending isn't going to work. The smoke of their torment is going to go up forever and ever. That's the way it's gonna be. They will enter into eternal punishment. They will wish they were dead. In fact, they will wish they were never born.



I already explain what Paul meant by the wages of sin and death. He was talking about the law. And I already explained how Jesus satisfied the law. So what does this prove regarding the lake of fire? Nothing. It's totally unrelated to what we are talking about.
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I believe that it is off topic to attempt to disprove Conditional Immortality on this thread. Paul said that the wages of sin is death, therefore the wages of sin is not eternal life in the lake. But this is not the place for this discussion.
Do you want to discuss this on my profile page here on CF?
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?members/timothyw.5705/
 
I believe that it is off topic to attempt to disprove Conditional Immortality on this thread. Paul said that the wages of sin is death, therefore the wages of sin is not eternal life in the lake. But this is not the place for this discussion.
Do you want to discuss this on my profile page here on CF?
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There's no discussion Tim. I stand on the word of God. That's it.

The Bible says, "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Rev. 14:11

So if you receive the mark of the beast, that's it. So don't do it.

(Edited, ToS 2.4. ...Address issues not personalities. ...Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues...and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah.)
 
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MarkT said:
There's no discussion Tim. I stand on the word of God. That's it.

The Bible says, "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Rev. 14:11

So if you receive the mark of the beast, that's it. So don't do it.

(Edited, ToS 2.4. 2.4: ...Address issues not personalities. ...Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues...and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice. Obadiah.)
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I disagree:
John 3:16 says that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but will have eternal life. (Removed, response to edited post. Obadiah.)
I stand on the word of God.

If a person changes John 3:16 to fit the doctrine of ECT, this adversely affects the gospel. CI specifically agrees with John 3:16 and the rest of the Gospel.

If you wish, we can discuss the merits of CI and ECT in private so that we do not disrupt this thread.
 
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Paul said that the wages of sin is death, therefore the wages of sin is not eternal life in the lake.
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Who said it was? I said the law you are referring to was satisfied. You are referring to a law.

But what about the wages of unbelief? What about the wages of not keeping the words Jesus gave us?

Paul was not talking about hell in the first place. Nevertheless, Paul isn't saying anything Jesus didn't say. Jesus said 'the furnace of fire' Mt. 13:42, 50, and 'eternal punishment'. Mt. 25:46 Jesus said, 'there they would weep and gnash their teeth' and he referred to it as the 'punishment reserved for the devil and his angels'.
 
MarkT said:
Who said it was? I said the law you are referring to was satisfied. You are referring to a law.

But what about the wages of unbelief?

Paul was not talking about hell in the first place. Nevertheless, Paul isn't saying anything Jesus didn't say. Jesus said 'the furnace of fire' Mt. 13:42, 50, and 'eternal punishment'. Mt. 25:46 Jesus said, 'there they would weep and gnash their teeth' and he referred to it as the 'punishment reserved for the devil and his angels'.
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Of course Paul isn't talking about eternal conscious torment in hell. Paul believes that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment in hell. Paul IS talking about the penalty for sin, which he says is DEATH.

Jesus said "the furnace of fire", and Jesus said that the unrepentant would be consumed by fire just as chaff is consumed by fire. Concerning Matthew 25:46, I have already said that you and I agree that there is eternal punishment. You believe that the eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment in hell, and I believe that the eternal punishment is eternal destruction. Concerning the weeping and gnashing, Jesus didn't say that this would continue on forever. I believe that those who are being sent to be destroyed in the furnace will weep about it and gnash their teeth. This doesn't prove that they weep and gnash forever. After they are burned up in the furnace, they won't be weeping and gnashing, because they will have been consumed by the fire of the furnace.

But again, It is not the topic of this thread to prove or disprove CI or ECT. Can we discuss this someplace else? I respectfully disagree with your doctrine. I agree with the doctrine that I find in the Bible, I honestly believe that CI has better support from Scripture. CI is directly stated in John 3:16 and many other scriptures. But this is all off topic, let's move this discussion off this thread.
 
You can't have death if death is destroyed. All you can have is eternal punishment.

You can't have eternal life unless death is destroyed, and if death is destroyed where does that leave you? You can't wish for death if death is destroyed. That's the thing to fear - eternal punishment.
 
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MarkT said:
You can't have death if death is destroyed. All you can have is eternal punishment.

You can't have eternal life unless death is destroyed, and if death is destroyed where does that leave you? You can't wish for death if death is destroyed. That's the thing to fear - eternal punishment.
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It leaves those who have perished in the second death dead, and those who haven't with eternal life.

But this isn't the place for you to attempt to disprove Conditional Immortality. Why don't you open a thread for that purpose? I respectfully disagree with you that CI is not scriptural. I believe that ECT is not scriptural because there isn't any scripture that says that the lost go to hell when they die where they will be conscious of torment forever. If ECT were scriptural there would be scriptures supporting it.

But as I said before, this is not the thread to attempt to disprove CI. That is off topic for this thread. As always, I am happy to give you the reasons for my hope in Christ for eternal life as per 1st Peter 3:15 and 16.
 
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jeff77 said:
... I believe E.C.T to be true but I believe that what ever the torture or punishment is, is not necessarily burning alive like many claim.

...
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I like your thought, Jeff77 because it expresses a very well established position: We don't always know what we think we know..."

Along the lines of your thought, may I ask? Have you read about that burning coal that would be on the forehead? We are told to pray for our enemies. That doing so would put a burning coal on their forehead. This sounds like an ungodly torture, doesn't it? But...

Maybe we can find a clue from Isaiah and the coal from the altar that was put to his lips. There is no record of him screaming in pain. Didn't Isaiah just get done pronouncing a prophetic "WOE" on himself? Something along the lines of "Woe is me!" "For I am a man of unclean lips among a people of unclean lips." So what was that coal for and from whence did it come? But then again, maybe there is no link between the two "coals" whatever they are.

I don't think that all burning is bad. Certainly I know enough to say that I don't know with any degree of certainty -- except that I do know one thing on the subject. Every mouth shall confess that He is JUST. That much we all know. So the scenario that depicts mankind rising up and condemning God just will not happen. Either the CI people are right and God won't do that -OR- maybe we don't precisely understand what God has in mind when he speaks to us prophetically about their fate.

There could be something that we are missing and when we look back at what was said and what happened we will just facepalm ourselves with a loud /DUH and say, "Yes. I see now. How could I have been so blind?"
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Quote from the original post:

I like your thought, Jeff77 because it expresses a very well established position: We don't always know what we think we know..."

Along the lines of your thought, may I ask? Have you read about that burning coal that would be on the forehead? We are told to pray for our enemies. That doing so would put a burning coal on their forehead. This sounds like an ungodly torture, doesn't it? But...

Maybe we can find a clue from Isaiah and the coal from the altar that was put to his lips. There is no record of him screaming in pain. Didn't Isaiah just get done pronouncing a prophetic "WOE" on himself? Something along the lines of "Woe is me!" "For I am a man of unclean lips among a people of unclean lips." So what was that coal for and from whence did it come? But then again, maybe there is no link between the two "coals" whatever they are.

I don't think that all burning is bad. Certainly I know enough to say that I don't know with any degree of certainty -- except that I do know one thing on the subject. Every mouth shall confess that He is JUST. That much we all know. So the scenario that depicts mankind rising up and condemning God just will not happen. Either the CI people are right and God won't do that -OR- maybe we don't precisely understand what God has in mind when he speaks to us prophetically about their fate.

There could be something that we are missing and when we look back at what was said and what happened we will just facepalm ourselves with a loud /DUH and say, "Yes. I see now. How could I have been so blind?"
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I had not thought about the burning coal from Isaiah. The main thing about C.I is that says there is no conscious existence in hell. To me that sounds like there is no hell at all. I believe Christ died so that we can have eternal life with Him, but also he saved us from having to go to hell. The eternal life I think is the most important but being saved from hell is part of the Gospel and in my opinion C.I takes some of the fear out of going to hell.
 
MarkT said:
Did you look up hell in the dictionary?

According to Rev. Death will be cast into the lake of fire. So that out will be eliminated. So you can forget death. That ending isn't going to work. The smoke of their torment is going to go up forever and ever. That's the way it's gonna be. They will enter into eternal punishment. They will wish they were dead. In fact, they will wish they were never born.



I already explain what Paul meant by the wages of sin and death. He was talking about the law. And I already explained how Jesus satisfied the law. So what does this prove regarding the lake of fire? Nothing. It's totally unrelated to what we are talking about.
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But aionios doesn't mean forever.
 
I'm pretty okay with, "I'm unsure," or "I don't have a definitive answer," and am also comfortable with waiting. Sometimes (most of the time) it's just a matter of time until that answer is given. Ask, knock, seek. Answered, opened, found... You know.
 
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