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How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

jeff77 said:
I like your post! I think there could be different levels in hell. Each will be judged according to his own but they will not be able to pay for the sin of blasphemy. What I mean is they won't be able to leave hell and enter heaven at some point.
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Interesting ideas Jeff.
 
TimothyW said:
Here is the Scriptural Support why I don't believe in the eternal conscious torment in hell.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)
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Taking notes of this post. Something I just thought of was the only people you see worried about this topic are christians. Do the lost worry about this topic? Mathew 11:28 ""Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.""

Jesus said he would give rest, not make us more worried. Also Mathew 6:27 "'Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?"" ECT is something to worry about. The classic argument is that God is the one that has the power to eternally torture someone after death. And that is true, but is that the character of Jesus to be an eternal hitler? The same Jesus that in the flesh could have stoned an adulteress but instead gave her a pass and a warning.

Mathew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

If one believes in the above verse. Then Christ is above all. I recall a scripture that says the devil has or had power over death (hebrews 2:14) but I dont know of any verses that say the devil has authority over the lake of fire or after death.
 
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WIP said:
:topic
Not necessarily aimed at the last poster(s).
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Right, sorry WIP.

This is not the place to defend CI or ECT, but to discuss how each doctrine affects the presentation of the Gospel.
I got side tracked by questions about CI.

I hear a lot that people can't accept the God of ECT, but I have yet to hear someone say "I can't accept a God who offers eternal life to his people". Perhaps I will hear that more when CI becomes the mainstream Christian Doctrine.
 
You'll never hear it coming from a Christian Timothy it defeats the purpose of the cross it makes his cross of no effect "no punishment = no need for Jesus"

tob
 
The only churches that I know of that have CI as an official doctrine are Jehovah's Witnesses and maybe Mormons. From what I understand these 2 false religions also say that Jesus is not the Son of God. Why is it that they have CI as a doctrine?
 
turnorburn said:
You'll never hear it coming from a Christian Timothy it defeats the purpose of the cross it makes his cross of no effect "no punishment = no need for Jesus"

tob
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I am a Christian, and the purpose is "Eternal Life in Christ". Being destroyed does not equate to "No Punishment".

The need for Jesus Christ is greater than ever:
No Jesus - No Eternal Life.
Know Jesus - Know Eternal Life.

Eternal Life in Christ does not defeat the purpose of cross OR make his cross of no effect.
 
jeff77 said:
The only churches that I know of that have CI as an official doctrine are Jehovah's Witnesses and maybe Mormons. From what I understand these 2 false religions also say that Jesus is not the Son of God. Why is it that they have CI as a doctrine?
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Because they are wrong to say that Jesus is not the Son of God.
Muslims and Mormons don't believe in CI, they believe in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. Does this make Eternal Torment in Hell right or wrong?
 
turnorburn said:
You'll never hear it coming from a Christian Timothy it defeats the purpose of the cross it makes his cross of no effect "no punishment = no need for Jesus"

tob
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That's not the case if one holds to the original doctrine of the atonement (Ransom model) rather than the Penal model espoused by the Reformers.
 
Let's continue to be civil with each other folks. (ToS 2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response.)
 
Sorry Obidiah i didn't know that was trolling its just when i asked in the past Timothy wouldn't answer at first then he said he got it from the bible when in fact it came from a man named Greg Boyd.. Out of curiosity i looked Greg up and found him to be a false teacher..

tob
 
Say Butch false teachers aren't something new there is enough doubt/lies floating around in today's Christian community you could fill 1000 Olympic size swimming pools with it..

tob

*edit: spelling.. :wave
 
I believe the issue isn't so much on
turnorburn said:
Say Butch false teachers aren't something new there is enough doubt/lies floating around in today's Christian community you could fill 1000 Olympic size swimming pools with it..

tob

*edit: spelling.. :wave
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I agree, have you considered that ECT may be from one?
 
turnorburn said:
Sorry Obidiah i didn't know that was trolling its just when i asked in the past Timothy wouldn't answer at first then he said he got it from the bible when in fact it came from a man named Greg Boyd.. Out of curiosity i looked Greg up and found him to be a false teacher.

tob
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Oh, Greg Boyd.

What makes you think he is a false teacher?

Have you heard of Edward Fudge?
How about John Stott?
 
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turnorburn said:
Sorry Obidiah i didn't know that was trolling its just when i asked in the past Timothy wouldn't answer at first then he said he got it from the bible when in fact it came from a man named Greg Boyd.. Out of curiosity i looked Greg up and found him to be a false teacher..

tob
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My post was to everyone in general, not necessarily to you, TOB.
 
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