How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[Tony Hyman]

There are are a lot of beliefs that try all kinds of different "angles" to comfort us ,The Early Egyptionsa, The Persians (Zoroasterism 500BC) where man is on an equal footing with God fighting evil.In the case of the Persian belief and all the others inluenced by it (and their are many even today).Eternal death is not applicable .The "dead" sinner soul , gets placed in a "room of darkness" he serves some time and then released at some or other stage for eternal life.There are no forever or life sentences in this case.So everbody no matter how good or bad wins in the end.Whoow what a seller!
Shame the only real sad part is that ,nevermind equal footing with Christ and God we dont even get to use the service entrance or even past the front gate

because the matter of deciding who "qualifies" doesnt if reach the desk of Yawhea or Christ as Christ so nicely puts it."When He has come , He will convict
the world of sin.....(John 16:8) Some time back around 1917 a Learned Theolgian Clapham Bible College in England Oswald Chambers wrote his views in a book called My Utmost For His Highest.

He sees the ramifications of the Spirit being in charge of these matters within the Trinity as follows "But conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit blots out every relationship on earth and makes us aware of only one- 'Against You , You only , have I sinned.. (Ps 51:4) When a person is convicted of sin in this way, he knows with every bit of his conscience that God would not dare to forgive him.

If God did forgive him, then this person would have a stronger sense of justice than God. God does forgive , but it cost the breaking of His heart with grief in the death of Christ to enable Him to do so.The great miracle of the grace of God is that He forgives sin and it is the death of Jesus Christ alone that enables the divine nature to forgive and remain true to itself in doing so.It is shallow nonsense to say that God forgives us because He is love.

Once we have been convicted of sin, we will never say this again. The love of God means Calvary- nothing less!The love of God is spelledout on the Cross and nowhwre else...It is there that His conscience is satisfied...The miracle of redemtion is that God turns me , the unholy one , into the standard of Himself. the Holy One. He does this by putting me into a new nature, the nature of Jesus Christ."Unquote
So "Loved the World" in John 3:16 is not such a free ride as it would seem(to me anyway),getting on and off as we please , like a funday at the park or a roller coaster ride, where we can slipe and slide as we go merrily go along.Somethings going to hurt thats for sure. Why on earth would Paul say "Where , O death , is your sting" in I Cor 15:55 .I seem to recall a similar burning stinging ,sensation; when I never listened to my dearly departed Parents all those years back.

 

[jeff77]

Maybe. I showed the evidence that it was the doctrine of ECT that was making these people reject the Gospel. Can I see your evidence?
I don't understand how being destroyed seems comforting to you. Can you explain that a little better to me?

"except the resurrection and judgment part" that's the WHOLE part. That is what separates us from those who do not believe that there is a resurrection!

And you didn't answer my question:
If doctrine X is untrue, and doctrine X is keeping people from the gospel, Can you understand my concern about doctrine X?

I agree with your evidence. I think most people reject the Gospel because it offends them. Not just ECT but many different things. When I said comforting I meant as compared to ECT.

Non-believer's are not resurrected to be judged? I don't think that's what your saying. I meant that atheist don't believe in any life after death. The doctrine of CI says that an atheist will be cease to exist except for the period of time when they are resurrected and judged. Unless they repent the end result is the same.

I understand your concern about doctrine X but just the fact that Jesus is only way to receive eternal life is offensive enough for people to reject the Gospel.

 

[MarkT]

So if there is a doctrine that isn't true, and it hinders the gospel, that doesn't concern you at all.

Nope. Nothing can hinder the gospel.

I know what the Bible says. If eternal punishment is a stumbling block for men, and it causes them to hate God, then I'm not going to touch it. I figure it's there for a reason. I'm not here to remove stumbling blocks or to put stumbling blocks in the way.

 

[MarkT]

In this case the truth has become a stumbling block for the haters of God. But I will always contend for the truth. Certainly CI is false. But it is just one more false thing.

 

[TimothyW]

In this case the truth has become a stumbling block for the haters of God. But I will always contend for the truth. Certainly CI is false. But it is just one more false thing.

I asked "What if Eternal Conscious Torment were false, and the doctrine of ECT hinders the gospel, would you be concerned about that". I even asked "if generic doctrine X were false and X hindered the gospel, would that concern you?". It's hard for a person to separate themselves from a doctrine and look at it objectively. I find it hard to believe that if X doctrine were false, and X doctrine was causing people to reject God, then that wouldn't concern you at all.

Conditional Immortality is not false, we have eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ. That's what CI is. Eternal life is immortality, faith in Jesus Christ is the condition.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus told them the truth yet they didn't believe. The truth didn't cause them to believe. If the truth doesn't cause you to believe then how can a lie cause you to believe? In your scenario you imagine people will believe in Christ if they know they will not be tortured forever in hell. If that's what Jesus taught, then how come they all fell away?

 

[MarkT]

Conditional Immortality is not false, we have eternal life by faith in Jesus Christ. That's what CI is. Eternal life is immortality, faith in Jesus Christ is the condition.

CI is most definitely false because all you are doing is cutting away the parts of the Bible you don't like.

 

[TimothyW]

CI is most definitely false because all you are doing is cutting away the parts of the Bible you don't like.

Not even a little bit. Not one verse.
The wages of sin is death. The lost perish just as the Bible says. That is CI. Romans 6:23, John 3:16, among many other verses that specifically describe CI.

 

[TimothyW]

Jesus told them the truth yet they didn't believe. The truth didn't cause them to believe. If the truth doesn't cause you to believe then how can a lie cause you to believe? In your scenario you imagine people will believe in Christ if they know they will not be tortured forever in hell. If that's what Jesus taught, then how come they all fell away?

Jesus absolutely did not tell anyone that they were going to be tormented alive forever in hell and he absolutely did say that the lost would perish.

 

[MarkT]

Of course he did. He said they will enter into the devil's punishment, which is the lake of fire; There they will weep and gnash their teeth. You should not equate death with the lake of fire. Death is quick. The lake of fire is never ending. It's death and Hades for the unbeliever (then the resurrection and judgment) and the lake of fire for the devil and his angels. So while the wages of sin is death, Jesus said anyone who keeps his word will never see death.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death.”

So dwell on every word he said and store the words up in your heart.

 

[TimothyW]

Of course he did. He said they will enter into the devil's punishment, which is the lake of fire; There they will weep and gnash their teeth. You should not equate death with the lake of fire. Death is quick. The lake of fire is never ending. It's death and Hades for the unbeliever (then the resurrection and judgment) and the lake of fire for the devil and his angels. So while the wages of sin is death, Jesus said anyone who keeps his word will never see death.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 8:51
Truly, truly, I say to you, if any one keeps my word, he will never see death.”

So dwell on every word he said and store the words up in your heart.

Jesus said that they would perish. John 3:16, Luke 13:3.
He said that they would be destroyed. Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 10:28.
Matthew 3:12 says that the chaff will be burnt up.

You even admit that the wages of sin is death, but whoever keeps Jesus' words will never see death, but has passed from death to life. This is what I am saying. You claimed that I am cutting away the parts of scripture that I don't like, but the scriptures that you posted actually agree with what I am saying and they disagree with the doctrine that nobody ever really dies, but instead they are kept alive in the lake of fire. Jesus never said that unbelievers would go into the lake of fire, He said that they would go into eternal fire, and the eternal fire will destroy them. I don't see how you can claim that I have cut out any part of scripture. I actually do dwell on every word Jesus said and I have stored up his words. I don't know why you can't see that immortality is a gift from God to those who are in Christ, the last part of Romans 6:23 specifically says "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And I don't understand why you can't see that the penalty for sin is death and not eternal conscious torment because the first part of Romans 6:23 specifically says that the wages of sin is death. Can you explain to me how a person can believe that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell and everyone has eternal life in the light of Romans 6:23?

I can't accept the doctrine of ECT because I would have to cut out too much scripture to believe in it, and there isn't any scripture that directly supports ECT. The verses that are used to support ECT don't actually say that the lost are sent to hell where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead. According to the Bible, we can have immortality, eternal life, on the condition that we have faith in Jesus Christ. That is Conditional Immortality.

I will suggest to you that you do the same thing you told me to do:
"Dwell on every word he said and store the words up in your heart." I believe that if you do this, you will see that eternal life is a gift from God to those who believe, and those who refuse to believe in him will perish.

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said that they would perish. John 3:16, Luke 13:3.
He said that they would be destroyed. Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 10:28.
Matthew 3:12 says that the chaff will be burnt up.

You even admit that the wages of sin is death, but whoever keeps Jesus' words will never see death, but has passed from death to life. This is what I am saying. You claimed that I am cutting away the parts of scripture that I don't like, but the scriptures that you posted actually agree with what I am saying and they disagree with the doctrine that nobody ever really dies, but instead they are kept alive in the lake of fire. Jesus never said that unbelievers would go into the lake of fire, He said that they would go into eternal fire, and the eternal fire will destroy them. I don't see how you can claim that I have cut out any part of scripture. I actually do dwell on every word Jesus said and I have stored up his words. I don't know why you can't see that immortality is a gift from God to those who are in Christ, the last part of Romans 6:23 specifically says "but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. And I don't understand why you can't see that the penalty for sin is death and not eternal conscious torment because the first part of Romans 6:23 specifically says that the wages of sin is death. Can you explain to me how a person can believe that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment in hell and everyone has eternal life in the light of Romans 6:23?

I can't accept the doctrine of ECT because I would have to cut out too much scripture to believe in it, and there isn't any scripture that directly supports ECT. The verses that are used to support ECT don't actually say that the lost are sent to hell where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead. According to the Bible, we can have immortality, eternal life, on the condition that we have faith in Jesus Christ. That is Conditional Immortality.

I will suggest to you that you do the same thing you told me to do:
"Dwell on every word he said and store the words up in your heart." I believe that if you do this, you will see that eternal life is a gift from God to those who believe, and those who refuse to believe in him will perish.

If you read Paul's writing in context he is talking about the payment for sin, suggesting the death of the Lord was payment for sin. So the phrase 'the wages of sin is death' refers to the payment for sin. The Lord was sacrificed for the sins of the world; for all. So if the Lord has once paid for the sins of the world then the law is accomplished. The law has been satisfied. You don't have to pay for sin again. So the law has been satisfied already for all men.

Now what does this have to do with judgment? Jesus said If you keep his words you do not come into judgment, but you have passed from death to life. So what of those who do not keep his words? They will be liable to judgment. And the punishment is the eternal fire. So try to keep those two things separate. The law of sin and death has been satisfied for all, especially for those who believe. The punishment that is reserved for the devil is eternal and never ending. That's the thing that is to be feared.

 

[MarkT]

If you continue using 'the wages of sin is death' as evidence for your theology, then you will never understand. You will never understand the fear of the LORD. Pr. 2:5 You will never find the knowledge of God. Wisdom will never enter your heart. Pr. 2:10 Pr. 4:4-9

 

[TimothyW]

If you read Paul's writing in context he is talking about the payment for sin, suggesting the death of the Lord was payment for sin. So the phrase 'the wages of sin is death' refers to the payment for sin. The Lord was sacrificed for the sins of the world; for all. So if the Lord has once paid for the sins of the world then the law is accomplished. The law has been satisfied. You don't have to pay for sin again. So the law has been satisfied already for all men.

Now what does this have to do with judgment? Jesus said If you keep his words you do not come into judgment, but you have passed from death to life. So what of those who do not keep his words? They will be liable to judgment. And the punishment is the eternal fire. So try to keep those two things separate. The law of sin and death has been satisfied for all, especially for those who believe. The punishment that is reserved for the devil is eternal and never ending. That's the thing that is to be feared.

I do read Paul's writing in context. It would be good for us both to read all of Romans 5 and 6. Paul goes into detail of how death entered the world because of sin. If the theory of Eternal Conscious Torment was what Paul had in mind, he would have said that sin causes eternal conscious torment in hell. But Paul didn't say that. He said "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." Romans 5:12 The death in Romans 6:23 isn't referring to Christ's death on the cross, because Paul says just 2 verses earlier in Romans 6:21 "But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. Whose death, Christ's or the sinners? Obviously the sinners, because death spread to all men because all sinned (Romans 5:12). And if the law requires a payment of eternal conscious torment in hell for sin, how has the law been satified by the death of Jesus Christ? The payment of DEATH doesn't pay a debt of eternal conscious torment in hell. The payment of Christ's Death on the cross can only atone for our sins if the debt we owe for our sins is death. The law of sin and death has been satisfied by Christ's death on the cross in our place. His death is substitutes for the death that we owe.

But it is not just Paul's words in Romans 5 and 6 that make me believe that the we can have eternal life, immortality, on the condition that we trust in Christ's sacrifice on our behalf (Conditional Immortality). Throughout the Bible, the penalty for sin is said to be death, destruction, and perishing. Here is something I wrote a few years ago, showing the evidence that the lost will perish just as the Bible says. I will put it in the next post because this is getting too long. I hope you will read it and respond to all of it.

 

[TimothyW]

Here is the Scriptural Support why I don't believe in the eternal conscious torment in hell.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

(all scriptures are NASB, definitions are Strong's or Liddell-Scott)

 

[MarkT]

I do read Paul's writing in context. It would be good for us both to read all of Romans 5 and 6. Paul goes into detail of how death entered the world because of sin. If the theory of Eternal Conscious Torment was what Paul had in mind, he would have said that sin causes eternal conscious torment in hell.

He is not talking about hell.

But Paul didn't say that.

Of course not because he is not talking about hell. Look up hell in the dictionary.

 

[BigSodaExposer]

Interesting thread Jeff. I am leaning more toward second death, obliteration of the spiritual body. Each unsaved mans time in the lake of fire till destruction varies depending on his works. But then, there is this scripture

Luke 16:22-24 "
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

That sounds like E.C.T. And those were words spoken by Jesus. I actually trust the words of Jesus more than Paul, and I trust the words of Paul more than anyone in the old testament because Paul was a born again holy spirit filled christian.
You have to think, if Jesus never sinned he was perfectly righteous, no lie was in him. That makes him like the 1 in digital data. But he said the devil had no truth in him, that makes the devil the zero in digital data. Perfect truth VS perfect lies


You've heard of works based salvation? What about works based damnation?

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"

Mark 12:40 "Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation."

Different levels of hell? Thats how it was in the spawn comics. Like one level might not be fire, but terrible cold and ice. The place the worm doesn't die sounds like E.C.T. - regenerating terrors that can't be killed. Perhaps the people their can't be killed either? Enduring the same torments over and over again. Shades of a video game.

But, one needs to realize what darkness is. All the things associated with darkness. Like fear. Humiliation is also another trait of the devil and goes along with the works of the flesh. This can be likened to the multitude laughing and mocking a blinded samson being paraded in front of the temple of Dagon, Or a bloodied Jesus being mocked by crowds carrying the cross or while on the cross. The devil is into humiliation and bondage. When Jesus was before the man possessed with legion the demons recognized him as the son of god and begged him not to torment them before the time. But perhaps thats what the minds of the devils imagined? Adam and Eve were naked without shame before they ate of the tree of knowledge. After that they experienced humiliation at being naked. A christian has to be dead in the flesh, crucify the flesh, and walk in spirit. Jesus said he who follows me deny himself and take up his cross daily.

The incarnated Jesus said he and the father are one. And his earthly demeanor was example of the father in heaven. Who the ultimate decision goes to on this. And when the disciples saw Jesus not get received by the village of the samaritans, they asked Jesus if they could call down fire from heaven like elijah, and consume them. Jesus turned to them and rebuked them. and told them they didn't know what spirit they were of. Jesus said he came to save mens lives not destroy mens lives.

 

[jeff77]

Interesting thread Jeff. I am leaning more toward second death, obliteration of the spiritual body. Each unsaved mans time in the lake of fire till destruction varies depending on his works. But then, there is this scripture

Luke 16:22-24 "
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

That sounds like E.C.T. And those were words spoken by Jesus. I actually trust the words of Jesus more than Paul, and I trust the words of Paul more than anyone in the old testament because Paul was a born again holy spirit filled christian.
You have to think, if Jesus never sinned he was perfectly righteous, no lie was in him. That makes him like the 1 in digital data. But he said the devil had no truth in him, that makes the devil the zero in digital data. Perfect truth VS perfect lies


You've heard of works based salvation? What about works based damnation?

Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works"

Mark 12:40 "Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation."

Different levels of hell? Thats how it was in the spawn comics. Like one level might not be fire, but terrible cold and ice. The place the worm doesn't die sounds like E.C.T. - regenerating terrors that can't be killed. Perhaps the people their can't be killed either? Enduring the same torments over and over again. Shades of a video game.

But, one needs to realize what darkness is. All the things associated with darkness. Like fear. Humiliation is also another trait of the devil and goes along with the works of the flesh. This can be likened to the multitude laughing and mocking a blinded samson being paraded in front of the temple of Dagon, Or a bloodied Jesus being mocked by crowds carrying the cross or while on the cross. The devil is into humiliation and bondage. When Jesus was before the man possessed with legion the demons recognized him as the son of god and begged him not to torment them before the time. But perhaps thats what the minds of the devils imagined? Adam and Eve were naked without shame before they ate of the tree of knowledge. After that they experienced humiliation at being naked. A christian has to be dead in the flesh, crucify the flesh, and walk in spirit. Jesus said he who follows me deny himself and take up his cross daily.

The incarnated Jesus said he and the father are one. And his earthly demeanor was example of the father in heaven. Who the ultimate decision goes to on this. And when the disciples saw Jesus not get received by the village of the samaritans, they asked Jesus if they could call down fire from heaven like elijah, and consume them. Jesus turned to them and rebuked them. and told them they didn't know what spirit they were of. Jesus said he came to save mens lives not destroy mens lives.

I like your post! I think there could be different levels in hell. Each will be judged according to his own but they will not be able to pay for the sin of blasphemy. What I mean is they won't be able to leave hell and enter heaven at some point.

 

[MarkT]

People will say it's not forever when it is forever because they are cowards, afraid of being called hateful and intolerant. Even knowing the word of God is fire, they will find some way to be moderate, even questioning the meaning of words, fearing the judgment of society. Nothing God hates more than a moderate Christian, unwilling to take a stand, neither hot or cold.

 

[TimothyW]

People will say it's not forever when it is forever because they are cowards, afraid of being called hateful and intolerant. Even knowing the word of God is fire, they will find some way to be moderate, even questioning the meaning of words, fearing the judgment of society. Nothing God hates more than a moderate Christian, unwilling to take a stand, neither hot or cold.

Forever is forever. Being dead forever is being dead forever. Being destroyed is being destroyed. Perishing means perishing.
People who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell will even question the meaning of the words Death, Destroy, Perish, Consumed by Fire, Fire (by saying that it is magic fire that doesn't really burn up what is put into it) and so on.

You can call people who believe that the wages of sin really is death cowards if it makes you happy.
Try standing up for the truth that those who reject God will perish instead of being burned alive in hell for all eternity and see for yourself how much courage it takes. Anyone can hide in the crowd that believes in Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell. That doesn't take any courage at all.