How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[Stan1953]

No the Apostles were not writhing in pain.
If the fire was physical fire they would have been.
Hence the difference.
Spiritual fire can have different effects on different things.

Actually they were described as "tongues", that appeared AS fire. It wasn't literal fire.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 2:3&version=NIV;NRSV;NASB;NET;MOUNCE
However I get what you are saying and again context is always of highest import when reading the word.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Ta yeah I use Bible gateway a bit but I'm a long time E Sword man. Also Butch put me on to The Word which is tops because it parses and gives the verb forms etc. I'm still learning how to use it properly ( after i re download it :biggrin )

I'm rarely able to post from my home computer, but I have Logos at home which has loads of resources on it. Can't top Logos.

 

[WIP]

If you commit a crime and go to court and are sentenced to receive a punishment, do you condemn yourself, or rather is up to the judge to provide that punishment?

Knowing that I was committing a crime I accepted the consequences of going forward with it. Therefore, it is not the judge that condemns me, it is I that condemns myself. The judge merely carries out the process.

Adam knew the consequences of disobedience yet he chose to accept them. I won't fault God for carrying out the sentence for what I've chosen to do.

 

[Stan1953]

Knowing that I was committing a crime I accepted the consequences of going forward with it. Therefore, it is not the judge that condemns me, it is I that condemns myself. The judge merely carries out the process.

Adam knew the consequences of disobedience yet he chose to accept them. I won't fault God for carrying out the sentence for what I've chosen to do.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Knowing that I was committing a crime I accepted the consequences of going forward with it. Therefore, it is not the judge that condemns me, it is I that condemns myself. The judge merely carries out the process.

Adam knew the consequences of disobedience yet he chose to accept them. I won't fault God for carrying out the sentence for what I've chosen to do.

No, the judge still condemns you. His condemnation is the consequence of your choices.

Care to address the Scriptures I presented, and how it makes ECT torture?

The point I am making is that there is no way to get around these facts.

1) That God is the only one who can send someone to hell.
2) That he send them in his wrath to undergo a punishment.
3) That he punishes them because of his righteous judgment of their sins.

If a person pleads guilty to the judge and understands the consequences of their choices, it still does not deny the fact that the judge is the one who carries out the sentence.

 

[agua.]

I'm rarely able to post from my home computer, but I have Logos at home which has loads of resources on it. Can't top Logos.

Cool I've looked at Logos ages ago I think I might take another look.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Cool I've looked at Logos ages ago I think I might take another look.

They've really really improved it, very good stuff. I spent about $2,500 investing in it now so I have a pretty extensive library, so it does a good job utilizing all of the tools.

10/10

 

[Stan1953]

They've really really improved it, very good stuff. I spent about $2,500 investing in it now so I have a pretty extensive library, so it does a good job utilizing all of the tools.
10/10

I'm of Scottish heritage...so I would never spend that much money when I can get it all online for free. Well relatively free if you don't count my ISP fees.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm of Scottish heritage...so I would never spend that much money when I can get it all online for free. Well relatively free if you don't count my ISP fees.

I use online resources as well, but pretty much everything that I invested in can't be obtained any other way. Also through Logos you can use everything as reference material as you can easily search a vast library with their tools.

Well worth the investment in my mind.

 

[TimothyW]

Asking a question here guys as a fellow member ... Why does this topic get both sides so upset?... This battle has been hashed over the whole time i have been on the net.. We get angry with one another over it, why? any one care to list the reasons why in simple plain english from your side.. I might understand the reasons why if i had "picked a side". I grew up with the question... "Where will you spend eternity" ? The emotions this topic wells up seem odd....

I know that I should not get upset.

But the reason that I sometimes do get upset is not that someone disagrees with me. It's when they say things like "You are rewriting the gospel, and Satan loves that".
Why should I be accused of being Satan's tool or in a cult (I've been accused of that too!) for merely believing what the Bible says? I've been called a heretic, a cult member, a tool of Satan, I've been told to go to hell, that I'm going to hell, and that I'm going to find out for myself exactly how hot the fires of hell really are. And this is from "Christian" brothers and sisters. And most of the time, nearly all of the time, I turn the other cheek and patiently explain that I am not Satan. (I forgot to mention that on another site I was actually called "Satan")

Why do I get upset?
I don't know, I really shouldn't.

 

[reba]

I know that happens from both sides .. I dont think i noticed it so much tell i was put in the middle.. When the insults fly the message is lost...

Makes a great witness

 

[Stan1953]

Asking a question here guys as a fellow member ... Why does this topic get both sides so upset?... This battle has been hashed over the whole time i have been on the net.. We get angry with one another over it, why? any one care to list the reasons why in simple plain english from your side.. I might understand the reasons why if i had "picked a side". I grew up with the question... "Where will you spend eternity" ? The emotions this topic wells up seem odd....

I actually DON'T get upset, despite what others may think. I just am a matter of fact kinda person. IMO, ALL God's word need to be RIGHTLY divided and I don't make personal judgments on the person advocating otherwise. If we really want to avoid these discussions, then there shouldn't be discussion forums. Trust me this site is calm compared to others like TOL. Quite frankly, I'm having a similar debate on another forum, and I recall only one other time when I did debate this issue, over a year ago, so this is not a common subject for me anyway. It is interesting to note how Paul addressed this in 1 Tim 2:8 NIV. The reason he did was because these men were sitting around and REALLY arguing about scripture. Men tend to do this I guess. They get personally involved in their beliefs. It's the way we are.

 

[Stan1953]

I know that I should not get upset.

But the reason that I sometimes do get upset is not that someone disagrees with me. It's when they say things like "You are rewriting the gospel, and Satan loves that".
Why should I be accused of being Satan's tool or in a cult (I've been accused of that too!) for merely believing what the Bible says? I've been called a heretic, a cult member, a tool of Satan, I've been told to go to hell, that I'm going to hell, and that I'm going to find out for myself exactly how hot the fires of hell really are. And this is from "Christian" brothers and sisters. And most of the time, nearly all of the time, I turn the other cheek and patiently explain that I am not Satan. (I forgot to mention that on another site I was actually called "Satan")
Why do I get upset?
I don't know, I really shouldn't.

I agree that when people equate my beliefs to satan, I get upset as well. That is a very low tactic, used by some, and only shows their inability to articulate what they actually believe.

 

[Stan1953]

I know that happens from both sides .. I dont think i noticed it so much tell i was put in the middle.. When the insults fly the message is lost...
Makes a great witness

No it doesn't make a great witness, but then again we aren't actually witnessing in these type of threads re we?
I appreciate sincere anger to false piety any day of the week.

 

[reba]

As do i Stan , you would be surprise as to who read the forums...

 

[JLB]

You seem to know a lot about Spiritual fire. Where do you get all this information? By making inferences?

You see the scriptures that I draw these conclusions from.

The scriptures.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Again, out of context, because this verse is talking about "LIVES". Nothing about hell, nothing about spirits, just about condemnation of sinners. We all, as Christians, know that.

Just about the condemnation of Sinners? Just that? That' has quite a lot of impact toward my case by my reasoning.

But you make an excellent point that I made myself. Let's ALL avoid the out of context verses unless you can logically tie the points to a passage that is on the topic of the final punishment of sinners. And brother Rev 21:8 is. So is Matt 10:28.

I simply feel God's Wrath is on topic. Correction, I know it is since Peter and Jude says it is. I'm sorry for your case they seem that have forgotten to mention this idea of the wicked's spirit that survives our God's consuming fire.

I'll take Rev 21:8 and Matt 10:28, 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7 as being in context. You do realize you just said yourself they were about the condemnation of sinners lives, right?

Now, for me to believe it's the lost human being's spirit (but not their body or their soul) that is tormented alive forever in Hell (or some other place) it indeed needs to be scriptures taken in context and about Hell (not Hades-the grave). It's still unclear to me (probably because you've not mentioned the exact scripture) which place it is exactly where you find that teaches us that their spirits survive God's post-judgment consuming fire wrath supposedly and thus their spirits are tormented forever somewhere/somehow.

You referenced Rev 21 last post to me. I found no Scripture about their spirits there.

 

[agua.]

As do i Stan , you would be surprise as to who read the forums...

"ChristianForums.net desires to serve non-Christians, seeking answers to questions about Christianity, by sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ so they too may acquire the hope, joy, and peace that come from fellowship with the saving grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ."

Mission statement 2

 

[chessman]

What's that gameshow? Millionare?

Let's ask the annihilationist in the audience here...any of you deny gnashing of teeth?

Definitely gnashing and apparently some weeping etc too.

Lock in gnashing :biggrin

That's 2/2.

I disagree.

That's 3/3.

Nope!

That's 4/4.

That's my final answer Meridith. No, annihiliationism does NOT deny a place of weeping/gnashing of teeth.


Stan or Mark, can you quote any annihilationist that denys weeping/gnashing of teeth?

'So there is a place where they will weep and gnash their teeth. Annihilation denies the truth of this statement.

Or should we simply put these type of arguments in the insult jar that tends to upset people?

 

[Stan1953]

Just about the condemnation of Sinners? Just that? That' has quite a lot of impact toward my case by my reasoning.

I don't see how? The wages of sin is death, and because we all sin we all die at least once. Heb 9:27

But you make an excellent point that I made myself. Let's ALL avoid the out of context verses unless you can logically tie the points to a passage that is on the topic of the final punishment of sinners. And brother Rev 21:8 is. So is Matt 10:28.

I have already dealt with these and don't feel reiterating will accomplish any further understanding. Matt 25:41 gives details as to Rev 20:10, which no one of your POV has refuted or even tried to explain.

I simply feel God's Wrath is on topic. Correction, I know it is since Peter and Jude says it is. I'm sorry for your case they seem that have forgotten to mention this idea of the wicked spirit that survives our God's consuming fire.

I agree God's wrath is relevant to this issue. I see nowhere that ANY spirits are destroyed. Many humans will be at the great white throne judgement, which occurs at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.

I'll take Rev 21:8 and Matt 10:28, 2 Peter 2:6 and Jude 1:7 as being in context. You do realize you just said yourself they were about the condemnation of sinners lives, right?

Yes, and relates to live sinners, not dead ones. Peter does relate to angels, but only as far as them being relegated to hell until the great judgment, and afterwards they will be thrown into the lake of fire as Jesus said in Matt 25:41, along with all that are judged as not being saved or worthy. Nowhere does it show any spirit is obliterated or ceases to exist in the lake of fire, but as I have shown by scriptures, they will be condemned and tormented forever.

Now, for me to believe it's the lost human being's spirit (but not their body or their soul) that is tormented alive forever in Hell (or some other place) it indeed needs to be scriptures taken in context and about Hell (not Hades-the grave). It's still unclear to me (probably because you've not mentioned the exact scripture) which place it is exactly where you find that teaches us that their spirits survive God's post-judgment consuming fire wrath supposedly and thus their spirits are tormented forever somewhere/somehow.

I haven't seen anyone who has said hell is forever. Clearly it becomes part of the lake of fire in Rev 20, and all those that were there are resurrected and then judged and them their bodies are destroyed. That is what 'second death' refers to. As the spirit had never died, it can't possibly be about the spirit. Read Rev 20:11-15 NIV, carefully and you will see that.

You referenced Rev 21 last post to me. I found no Scripture about their spirits there.

I referenced Rev 21 to show we will live on a new earth in a new universe. That is a physical or geological one, not a spiritual one.