Stan1953
Member
edited snark reba
Last edited by a moderator:
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?
- Thread starter jeff77
- Start date
Compound Idiomatic Phrases
http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/special1.htm
Now, lets look at Revelation 14:11 and 20:10. Both of the following phrases are usually translated as: "for ever and ever"
In Rev. 14:11 the phrase: eis aionas aionon literally means: "unto ages of ages"
In Rev. 20:10 the phrase: eis tous aionas ton anionon literally means: "unto the ages of the ages"
"Unto ages of ages" and "unto the ages of the ages" are really compound expressions. The expression itself means multiplied ages. Some feel that these compound phrases could more emphatically declare the idea of eternity, so the suffering of the wicked would last forever and ever. However, this view would pit Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 against all the other texts of the Bible that speak of the wicked being destroyed. Even within Revelation 20 itself, this punishment of the wicked is called the second death (Revelation 20:6, 14). The death in which there is no return. So, this idea, that the wicked will suffer for ever and ever, does not make sense.
http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/special1.htm
Now, lets look at Revelation 14:11 and 20:10. Both of the following phrases are usually translated as: "for ever and ever"
In Rev. 14:11 the phrase: eis aionas aionon literally means: "unto ages of ages"
In Rev. 20:10 the phrase: eis tous aionas ton anionon literally means: "unto the ages of the ages"
"Unto ages of ages" and "unto the ages of the ages" are really compound expressions. The expression itself means multiplied ages. Some feel that these compound phrases could more emphatically declare the idea of eternity, so the suffering of the wicked would last forever and ever. However, this view would pit Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 against all the other texts of the Bible that speak of the wicked being destroyed. Even within Revelation 20 itself, this punishment of the wicked is called the second death (Revelation 20:6, 14). The death in which there is no return. So, this idea, that the wicked will suffer for ever and ever, does not make sense.
Stan1953
Member
Yeh and it doesn't mean they're all on this thread.
For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. Malachi 4:1
You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:3.
For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near. . . . . And they shall be as though they had never been. Obadiah 1:15-16.
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 37:20
You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this, Says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 4:3.
For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near. . . . . And they shall be as though they had never been. Obadiah 1:15-16.
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. Psalm 37:20
Last edited:
turnorburn
Member
DRS81 said:
Then why would Jesus say this?
Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
tob
Then why would Jesus say this?
Matthew 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
tob
No, that's from the website. It'll take me a few days to actually get through that site. It looks interesting and also post 185.
Stan1953
Member
First of all the quoted site is a joke and so obviously biased as to be beyond belief.
Secondly, many CREDENTIALED scholars have translated it as "forever and ever".
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rev 20:10&version=NIV;NRSV;NET;NASB;MOUNCE
Oh and BTW, as it is from Greek, it is NOT a Compound Idiomatic Phrase.
Stan1953
Member
Yep, all about live people, not dead people or existing spirits.
chessman
Member
Many or all of the wicked will be there?
Stan1953
Member
same thing... "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
TimothyW
Member
Hi Stan. I see the Scripture you posted, but it seems to me that Jesus is saying that the lost will be destroyed (the gate leads to destruction).
How do you reconcile Jesus Christ's words with your doctrine?
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Thank you for you post Chessman, I read through a couple times. I am not looking for perfect understanding, or doctrine. Nobody has perfect understanding or doctrine. We only know things in part, and as soon as we come to that realization, we can be taught.
I am looking for a heart that will obey God (As Jesus said anyone that will do the will of God will know sound doctrine......John 7:17 ) and a teachable one that wants to learn as I am learning.
Those way off in doctrine....................... Issue number one is they will not do all they know in their heart to do toward God. Jesus words, not mine.
I will just give you what I have from years of studying this. I would love to remove eternal punishment.
We add nothing to the Word, we don't take away anything, and no scripture contradicts another.
Hell: Gehenna
Jesus Referenced Gehenna James also.
Gehenna is mentioned in Matthew's account and Marks. John and Luke never mentioned it.
Gehenna is the same as the Valley of Hinnom. (Hebrew Gehinnom /Gai Ben-Hinnom) It was a valley or two connecting valleys south of Mount Zion and Old city. You could see the valley from the south western gate of Jerusalem
It's as old as Joshua and mentioned in Isa as the burning place (Isa 30:33) This valley gave King Azah, Jeremiah and a whole bunch of others issues. It was notorious for pagan God worship and burning folks up in fires to Molech, Baal, and others.
Everyone Knew of the fires in Gehenna, and Pagan Worship, and why I believe Jesus referenced the place. The Jews believed in a place called Sheol, the place of the righteous dead.
Jesus said...... Fear not man which is able to kill the body, but fear God who is ABLE............ ABLE to destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.
Jesus never said God destroys souls in Hades, Sheol, or Gehenna. Jesus said just fear the one that is able to do so.
Jesus also said, Father with you all things are possible, take this cup from me. God would have had to redo time and rewrite the eternal word had he granted Jesus request. God did not, but Jesus knew He was able to rewrite history and all that was written about him in the eternal word.
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
(Mar 14:36)
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Mat 10:28)
The body can't make it to heaven or Hell, so Jesus is referring to the actual word he used, which is the place in the Valley of Hinnom. It's the translators that translated Gehennah into the much latter Anglo Saxon Word "Hell"
Jesus said in this place, the worm never dies, and the fire is never quenched. He referenced Isa.
And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24)
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
(Mar 9:48)
Jesus referenced the physical place Gehenna but He described a place different from the physical place, but like the physical place. Gehenna is not hell, but a real place on earth.
Hades/Sheol
Hell there is sorrow. Psa 18:5, 2Sa 22:66, Psa 116:3, Luke 16:31
souls can be in hell. Prov 23:14,
After death, there can be hell. Psa 55:15, Eze 31:16-17
Apparently there are worms in Hell. Isa 14:11, Mar 9:48
Those in Hell can no longer hope for truth. Psa 141:7
Jesus in Hell, Acts 2:31 (more)
Jesus defeated hell, and took the keys. Rev 1:18
Tartaroo: (Lower part of Hades, only mentioned once by Peter)
Eternal Punishment:
All sorrow, Jesus victory, the rich man all took place in Hades/Sheol.
It is everlasting or without end.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2) (will go through what sleep means if I have to)
And these shall go away into everlasting (Aionios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (Aionios).
(Mat 25:46)
Aionios is a Greek Adjective that can be defined in the article or left alone to stand for everlasting like all Greek Adjectives. Saying wait Aionios until I get back means wait until I get back. Paul used the Word this way once. It comes from the root Aion which has a start age and end age.
Jesus said there is Everlasting punishment, Just as there is everlasting life. If one is not true, then the other is not true. All scripture must match what Jesus said, and hence there is eternal punishment. Jesus never lied, not one time or mislead anyone, or made things cryptic.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Eis Aion, Aion................ Forever and ever is the Greek expression that means age upon age upon age without end for all ages, forever.
Zero Scripture that denotes there is no eternal punishment. Zero scripture that Spirits are destroyed in hell. Scriptures that say souls can be in hell though. Jesus said there is eternal punishment. There is sorrow in hell, and feelings of contempt in hell.
Says there worms in hell also........
There are many different views to remove Eternal punishment, all are wrong. Even making Gehenna the same as the lake of fire. All wrong though.
To believe something, we need something that says it is just as it is. We have many scriptures denoting what Sheol/Hades is and what people feel there and where some go after death.
Stan1953
Member
Those who enter the wide gate are destroyed. They are human. Spirits don't enter the wide gate, humans do. Just as humans enter the narrow gate that leads to eternal life. It's a theme that is though out the NT. Jesus equates to Eternal Life and not having Jesus equates to eternal death. The Bible is for the living TW, not for the dead or the meta-physical.
chessman
Member
Yes. We all die of 'natural causes' and 'sin causes'. And LATER we all are judged not just many. ALL the wicked are judged at the GWTJ, not just many.
But do we all get God's wrath, God's eternal fire, God's destruction as in the example of S&G? No. All the wicked do, not just many of them.
S&G were said to be an example of the wicked's fate/God's fire for a reason. dying of old age is not said to be the example of the wicked's post judgment fate.
Though death is the 'natural' wages for sin. Agreed. But Rom 6:23 does not say anything about your idea that man's spirit survives a post judgment consuming fire. Rom 6:23 is not talking about the 2nd death in the LoF. Where is that wicked human spirits live on passage agian? I keep asking for it.
You're either not getting my point or are intentionally avoiding the fact that the destruction of S&G was an example of God's wrath by His fire. You keep bringing up people's 1st death, like I disagree with that fact. I understand that even the S&G wicked get a 2nd dose of that fire AFTER they are resurrected and judged.
But Jesus says that next time it's their body AND their soul that is destroyed in Hell, not on Earth.
. Okay, if you've 'dealt' with them all you can toward your case, fine.
We'll just leave them where they're at. Saying nothing whatsoever about the wicked's spirits being tortured in Hell as their supposed punishment. Yet calling their punishment their destruction by the exampled eternal fire. Their destruction of both their body and soul by the way. That's annihilationism in a nutshell.
Notice also that the post judgment Rev 21:8 passage would have been the perfect place to teach us that the wicked's spirits live on in the LoF, if it were true. But rather it says that's their 2nd death, the one not of old age (sin) but as a direct result of the one who can destroy BOTH their body and their soul by His consuming fire. Their final judgment.
Why in the world would someone with my POV desire to refute Matt 25:41 or Rev 20:10?
Matthew 25:41 Then he will also say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed ones, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!
Hebrews 12:25, 29 Watch out that you do not refuse the one who is speaking! For if those did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, much less will we escape, if we reject the one who warns from heaven,
For indeed our God is a consuming fire.
Matt 25:41 is a passage supporting my view. It has zero evidence that the wicked's spirit survives God's consuming fire. I'm surprised you'd even mention it, frankly. Is the reason simply because it uses the word eternal and fire and that somehow teaches about everlasting spiritual torment? I don't get it. Do their spirit's escape consumption yet the one who warns from Heaven did so even about the destruction of the body and the soul?
Rev 20:10 is again no support for your view for the following reasons:
1. it's off-topic since it's pre-reserrection, pre-judgment and
2. not even about humans.
I thought you were going to use passages in context about humans? You probably believe it is. I don't.
You said:
I asked you this question for a reason. I appreciate you at least responding to the question but the correct answer is all. Every single goat will stand before the judge in judgment at the GWTJ. Else, He's sentenced them without judging them first. I suspect you know this is true already.
You answered:
No Stan, all is not the same thing as many. These are the types of lengths you must go to, to hold on to your doctrine of ECT.
If there were 100 wicked people that had ever lived, all 100 must stand and be judged at the GWTJ, not 99 or 98 of them.
Thus, neither The Beast or The False Prophet can be humans. They are clearly demons or literary illustrations of demonic influences.
I know you probably don't want to believe that. I requires you to rethink some things.
But the Scriptures prove it logically speaking in many, many ways. Not just this way (they miss out on the GWTJ, if they were humans).
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are,
Remember: "prepared for the devil and his angels!"
Revelation 9:20 And the rest of humanity who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands, in order not to worship the demons and the gold and silver and bronze and stone and wooden idols, which are able neither to see nor to hear nor to walk,
Etc.
chessman
Member
I agreed with your post up until this point. I have no desire to remove the eternal punishment of the wicked whatsoever. I believe Hitler deserves more than a shot to the head as punishment. I actually think he will receive more as well and his soul/spirit likely is in torment spiritually speaking right now as he awaits God's consuming fire of destruction of both the body and soul.
God does not make idle warnings. I find no real evidence for ECT or against CI in the fact (which I readily admit) that Matt 10:28 say able/can versus will. He says man cannot do something He can do, was is point.
For to use that as 'evidence' for ECT would be like saying God is 'just' able to cause grace to abound in us, but will not really make it happen:
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to cause all grace to abound to you, ...
Me either and you're right. Scriptures support each other, they don't conflict.
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Luke 12:5
After the body has been killed, the soul is cast into hell, where the worm never dies and there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Tormented day and night forever and ever, with the devil and his angels.
JLB
TimothyW
Member
I agree. But I still don't see how this supports ECT. If the dead are dead and not alive, how are the dead conscious of eternal torment?
Is Death himself conscious?
And I looked , and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Death himself will be cast into the lake of fire.
JLB