How does C.I and E.C.T affect the Gospel?

[JLB]

'Eternal' connotes a sense of timelessness; no beginning and no end. For instance God's word is eternal. It goes on forever. It doesn't pass away. So consider what Jesus said. Speaking of the punishment, Jesus said, 'there they will weep and gnash their teeth'. So there is a place where they will weep and gnash their teeth. Annihilation denies the truth of this statement. Once they are annihilated, their punishment would end. They would no longer be in a place of torment. Their weeping and gnashing of teeth would cease. Moreover it suggests there will be a time when the word of God is not true anymore; they won't be weeping and gnashing their teeth. And Jesus' statement that they will weep and gnash their teeth will become untrue.

The godless who don't believe in anything after death would love this to be true. If at some time they were annihilated, so what? But Jesus clarifies our understanding when he says they will be thrown into hell 'where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched'. Mark 9: 47,48

I agree. Great post.

Everlasting destruction.
Everlasting punishment.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The worm does not die.
The fire is not quenched.
They are tormented.
They are tormented day and night forever and ever.
They have no rest day and night.

These phrases paint a pretty clear picture that there will be those who will continue to be tormented after their body dies, rather than just cease to exist.

Matt 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire ; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

How many believe that this is a literal furnace? Will righteous ones turn into to literal 'suns' also?

Notice most of all how he says he who has ears, let him hear. Don;t we all have ears?? Is Jesus saying in his day only half of the people even had ears on their head so the message was only for them? Clearly not he is meaning something more, he knew we might not perceive the lesson of his message.

Digging

Here is an example of how we will be at the resurrection.

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. Matthew 17:1-2

John says it this way -

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2


If Jesus says the wick will be cast into everlasting fire, or a furnace of fire, and the righteous will shine like the sun, you should just believe what He says.

The righteous will shine like the sun, not become little suns.

Why try and distort what Jesus said to make your point?

JLB

 

[TimothyW]

I agree. Great post.

Everlasting destruction.
Everlasting punishment.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The worm does not die.
The fire is not quenched.
They are tormented.
They are tormented day and night forever and ever.
They have no rest day and night.

These phrases paint a pretty clear picture that there will be those who will continue to be tormented after their body dies, rather than just cease to exist.




Here is an example of how we will be at the resurrection.

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. Matthew 17:1-2

John says it this way -

Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2


If Jesus says the wick will be cast into everlasting fire, or a furnace of fire, and the righteous will shine like the sun, you should just believe what He says.

The righteous will shine like the sun, not become little suns.

Why try and distort what Jesus said to make your point?
JLB

Destruction paints a picture that they will continue to be tormented after they have been destroyed?

 

[JLB]

Destruction paints a picture that they will continue to be tormented after they have been destroyed?

Everlasting destruction.
Everlasting punishment.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The worm does not die.
The fire is not quenched.
They are tormented.
They are tormented day and night forever and ever.
They have no rest day and night.


These phrases teach us that destruction of spirit matter may have a different meaning than what you yourself define it as.

Spiritual fire seems to have a different effect that natural fire.

Examples:

Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. Acts 2:3

This spiritual fire did not burn up and consume the Apostles and those present at the day of Pentecost.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
Exodus 3:2


It seems that spiritual fire may have a different effect than natural fire.

Spirit matter seems to be different than physical matter.


JLB




JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This should be readily apparently. Why you would use this example is beyond me.

Perhaps you could elaborate, rather than responding like this.

There is also hail in the Bible that turned to flames when it hit the ground. The point is the lake of fire is symbolic, NOT a physical place.

Don't see the relevance of the allusion to Exodus. I also don't see the punishment of fire being symbolic in the NT.

but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Hebrews 10:27 (ESV)

This was spoken about those who continue to willfully sin, that there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but instead a fearful expectation of judgment, and what does that judgment look like? A "fury of fire that will consume the adversaries."

I do not believe the "fire of Lord" is symbolic, as it is seen throughout the Bible, through which God administers his judgment.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Everlasting destruction.
Everlasting punishment.
Weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The worm does not die.
The fire is not quenched.
They are tormented.
They are tormented day and night forever and ever.
They have no rest day and night.


These phrases teach us that destruction of spirit matter may have a different meaning than what you yourself define it as.

Spiritual fire seems to have a different effect that natural fire.

Examples:

Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. Acts 2:3

This spiritual fire did not burn up and consume the Apostles and those present at the day of Pentecost.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
Exodus 3:2


It seems that spiritual fire may have a different effect than natural fire.

Spirit matter seems to be different than physical matter.


JLB




JLB

I always find it interesting how people try to tie in the burning Bush or the Pentecost to try and argue for ECT. Were the Apostles writhing in pain once the tongues of fire rested upon them? Or was it a spirit bush?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yep. They're trying to get it right.

I'm an annihilationist and I don't deny gnashing of teeth.

What's that gameshow? Millionare?

Let's ask the annihilationist in the audience here...any of you deny gnashing of teeth?

Nope!

 

[reba]

Asking a question here guys as a fellow member ... Why does this topic get both sides so upset?... This battle has been hashed over the whole time i have been on the net.. We get angry with one another over it, why? any one care to list the reasons why in simple plain english from your side.. I might understand the reasons why if i had "picked a side". I grew up with the question... "Where will you spend eternity" ? The emotions this topic wells up seem odd....

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Asking a question here guys as a fellow member ... Why does this topic get both sides so upset?... This battle has been hashed over the whole time i have been on the net.. We get angry with one another over it, why? any one care to list the reasons why in simple plain english from your side.. I might understand the reasons why if i had "picked a side". I grew up with the question... "Where will you spend eternity" ? The emotions this topic wells up seem odd....

I'm deeply passionate about this issue because of how it reflects on the character of God. Naturally I get my ideas from Scripture and was convinced by Scripture that my position is accurate, but my first response was how damaging the ECT position actually is to the message of the Cross. It seems to contradict the idea that God is loving or good, or at least in any way that is discernible to us, so then his love and goodness must be shrouded in mystery in the light of a God who torments forever.

A God who will perpetually for all eternity invest great energy into the suffering of the majority of people whom he created in his own image and gave his Son for. I don't know how we as compassionate human beings could be happy in that kind of universe, or how a good God could be content with the sorrow of tormenting these beings for all eternity.

The implications of this doctrine, and how it is used to manipulate people deeply troubles me. And I am passionate about the love and goodness of God, therefore I argue for his Justice revealed in Scripture that when accurately presented reveals God's goodness as being opposed to sin, but not angry forever.

For his anger is but for a moment, and his mercy endures forever.

 

[reba]

Thank you Doulos Iesou... simple clear just like i asked....

 

[WIP]

Why does ECT come across as defining God as anything but loving and good?

Suppose you have a son and he has chosen a life path of crime, sex, drugs, and alcohol that will lead to his destruction. He chose his path and you being the more mature and wiser know that that path is one of doom. As his parent you will do what you feel necessary to persuade him to see the light and change his ways before it is too late. If you succeed you are elated and rejoice that he was lost and is now saved, like the father of the prodigal son. If he chooses to ignore your efforts and follow his path to destruction does that imply that you are not a loving father/mother because you allowed him to take his path?

God doesn't put a leash on us and lead us around like puppets. To do so would remove the aspect of love. We are allowed to make choices and we have been given the message, warnings, and tools to make the right choices but we are bull-headed and often refuse to use them. God does love us...enough that he doesn't lead us around like puppets on a string.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Why does ECT come across as defining God as anything but loving and good?

Suppose you have a son and he has chosen a life path of crime, sex, drugs, and alcohol that will lead to his destruction. He chose his path and you being the more mature and wiser know that that path is one of doom. As his parent you will do what you feel necessary to persuade him to see the light and change his ways before it is too late. If you succeed you are elated and rejoice that he was lost and is now saved, like the father of the prodigal son. If he chooses to ignore your efforts and follow his path to destruction does that imply that you are not a loving father/mother because you allowed him to take his path?

God doesn't put a leash on us and lead us around like puppets. To do so would remove the aspect of love. We are allowed to make choices and we have been given the message, warnings, and tools to make the right choices but we are bull-headed and often refuse to use them. God does love us...enough that he doesn't lead us around like puppets on a string.

There are some problems with this analogy.

1) God loves us far more than our parents ever could have.
2) God doesn't sit by in heaven hoping that someone will be persuaded, he knows everything. He doesn't learn.
3) In this analogy the parents have no involvement in the suffering of their son, this is not so with the doctrine of ECT.

This isn't an argument about free will, I actually was defending that in another thread.

Here are the points that would call into question God's goodness and love.

1) That God would find justice in the suffering and torment of beings created in his image. There is great value to a human being because they are created in God's image, and for him to then just basically torture these beings for all eternity seems to betray that value and love that he had for them.
2) Because God sent his Son Jesus to die for their sins (you're not a Calvinist I suppose), he expressed God's love for them on the Cross. He then, will one day torment these beings forever and ever in his wrath for their sins. This calls into question his love, because it is impossible to conceive of a being who could be content with tormenting billions of beings whom he loves deeply for all eternity.
3) This calls into question God's goodness because of the nature of the punishment itself, human beings while having no excuse for their sins, have not largely been informed about God's plan of salvation. Billions of people live in China and India and grow up in different faiths, almost never hearing about the gospel. Many of them are not particularly wicked people, but lived relatively moral lives, only to be tormented for all eternity for their deeds. Justice includes having a punishment that fits the crime, don't punish murder and petty stealing the same way, and a blanket judgment of ECT seems extreme to any rational mind. It is akin to the kind of punishment ascribed by tyrants and dictators who relish in the suffering of others.
4) It also calls into question the idea that we as God's people could be happy in the after-life. Many people that we deeply love will be experiencing immense suffering for all eternity. My entire family outside of myself is an unbeliever, and to conceive of being happy while they are tormented is beyond imagining. Any one of us would be torn apart if we heard a close family member was kidnapped and being tortured for a year, then multiply that by infinity as it would last an eternity.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point.

 

[JLB]

I always find it interesting how people try to tie in the burning Bush or the Pentecost to try and argue for ECT. Were the Apostles writhing in pain once the tongues of fire rested upon them? Or was it a spirit bush?

The point is clear.

Spiritual fire is different than physical fire.

Your spirit is different than you physical body.

The spiritual fire did not consume the physical bush.

Obviously the devil, the false prophet and the beast continue to exist in the lake of fire.

Tormented day and night forever and ever.

Is there other scriptures that teach other people will also exist in the lake of fire?

JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The point is clear.

Spiritual fire is different than physical fire.

Your spirit is different than you physical body.

The spiritual fire did not consume the physical bush.

Obviously the devil, the false prophet and the beast continue to exist in the lake of fire.

Tormented day and night forever and ever.

Is there other scriptures that teach other people will also exist in the lake of fire?

JLB

It's not clear actually.

Were the Apostles writhing in pain as a result of the tongues of fire resting on them? If not, then how is this an example of that same fire?

Is that burning bush a spiritual bush? If so, what is your textual evidence for it. Do you think God appeared to Moses in a Burning Bush to teach us about the nature of "spirit fire" so that we would know the wicked are spiritually burned for eternity? Or perhaps was there another purpose that makes it completely irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[agua.]

Asking a question here guys as a fellow member ... Why does this topic get both sides so upset?... This battle has been hashed over the whole time i have been on the net.. We get angry with one another over it, why? any one care to list the reasons why in simple plain english from your side.. I might understand the reasons why if i had "picked a side". I grew up with the question... "Where will you spend eternity" ? The emotions this topic wells up seem odd....

Yeah interesting isn't it. Maybe we should have an insult jar the site would be rich off these topics :D

 

[jeff77]

Asking a question here guys as a fellow member ... Why does this topic get both sides so upset?... This battle has been hashed over the whole time i have been on the net.. We get angry with one another over it, why? any one care to list the reasons why in simple plain english from your side.. I might understand the reasons why if i had "picked a side". I grew up with the question... "Where will you spend eternity" ? The emotions this topic wells up seem odd....

The topic doesn't make me upset with people on this website. The first time I ever heard of annihilation was because of a thread I started over a year ago called "Is physical pain experienced in hell". I started that thread because I felt that the torture by fire physically did not match with God's justice and seemed to take away from the idea of free will. If we have free will why would God make the penalty for not becoming a follower so bad. I had the idea that there must be other people who felt the same about the fire is not of the physical type but when annihilation came up I was surprised as I had never heard of it.

 

[WIP]

There are some problems with this analogy.

1) God loves us far more than our parents ever could have.
2) God doesn't sit by in heaven hoping that someone will be persuaded, he knows everything. He doesn't learn.
3) In this analogy the parents have no involvement in the suffering of their son, this is not so with the doctrine of ECT.

This isn't an argument about free will, I actually was defending that in another thread.

Here are the points that would call into question God's goodness and love.

1) That God would find justice in the suffering and torment of beings created in his image. There is great value to a human being because they are created in God's image, and for him to then just basically torture these beings for all eternity seems to betray that value and love that he had for them.
2) Because God sent his Son Jesus to die for their sins (you're not a Calvinist I suppose), he expressed God's love for them on the Cross. He then, will one day torment these beings forever and ever in his wrath for their sins. This calls into question his love, because it is impossible to conceive of a being who could be content with tormenting billions of beings whom he loves deeply for all eternity.
3) This calls into question God's goodness because of the nature of the punishment itself, human beings while having no excuse for their sins, have not largely been informed about God's plan of salvation. Billions of people live in China and India and grow up in different faiths, almost never hearing about the gospel. Many of them are not particularly wicked people, but lived relatively moral lives, only to be tormented for all eternity for their deeds. Justice includes having a punishment that fits the crime, don't punish murder and petty stealing the same way, and a blanket judgment of ECT seems extreme to any rational mind. It is akin to the kind of punishment ascribed by tyrants and dictators who relish in the suffering of others.
4) It also calls into question the idea that we as God's people could be happy in the after-life. Many people that we deeply love will be experiencing immense suffering for all eternity. My entire family outside of myself is an unbeliever, and to conceive of being happy while they are tormented is beyond imagining. Any one of us would be torn apart if we heard a close family member was kidnapped and being tortured for a year, then multiply that by infinity as it would last an eternity.

I could go on, but I think I have made my point.

I wonder if one of the things that separate ECT from CI is in the wording of your post above. You say God torments them or God tortures them. Does scripture say this or does it say those who are not saved will be tortured or suffer for eternity?

That's the point of my analogy. In my example, the father doesn't condemn the child to destruction. The child condemns himself. The father provides for a way out but the child refuses to accept it. Adam and Eve were not condemned from the start but chose to condemn themselves by refusing to accept the warning that if they ate from the tree they would surely die. God in his infinite loving capacity still provides a way out but unless we accept it we will surely die.

Just like Adam we want to pass the blame off ourselves onto another. We will blame God for our destruction and perhaps even our eternal torment rather than take responsibility for it.

 

[JLB]

It's not clear actually.

Were the Apostles writhing in pain as a result of the tongues of fire resting on them? If not, then how is this an example of that same fire?

Is that burning bush a spiritual bush? If so, what is your textual evidence for it. Do you think God appeared to Moses in a Burning Bush to teach us about the nature of "spirit fire" so that we would know the wicked are spiritually burned for eternity? Or perhaps was there another purpose that makes it completely irrelevant to the discussion.

No the Apostles were not writhing in pain.

If the fire was physical fire they would have been.

Hence the difference.

Spiritual fire can have different effects on different things.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

No the Apostles were not writhing in pain.

If the fire was physical fire they would have been.

Hence the difference.

Spiritual fire can have different effects on different things.

You seem to know a lot about Spiritual fire. Where do you get all this information? By making inferences?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I wonder if one of the things that separate ECT from CI is in the wording of your post above. You say God torments them or God tortures them. Does scripture say this or does it say those who are not saved will be tortured or suffer for eternity?

Well, if one were to take the perspective of ECT and interpret passages such as Revelation 14:9-11 literally, I don't see any way around it.

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Revelation 14:9-11 (ESV)

This Scripture describes not only "torment" but as torture, and I will tell you why. The phrase "he will be tormented with fire and sulfur," has the Greek word βασανισθήσεται (which we render as he will be tormented) in the passive voice, which means that this is agent is being acted upon. Torment means severe mental of physical suffering, and torture is the "action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment." If God has put these beings in hell for the purpose of punishment, and that punishment is severe physical and/or mental suffering, then this is torture.

There simply is no way around that fact, while some try to say that this torment is from themselves, it does not fit the Greek which is clear from the passive voice being used.

That's the point of my analogy. In my example, the father doesn't condemn the child to destruction.

Except that isn't the Scriptural picture of judgment.

He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. Romans 2:6-10 (ESV)

Men do not Judge themselves, or condemn themselves, they perform evil acts which God condemns them on account of. God is the only one who can condemn a person to hell, they do not cast themselves in, they are cast in. The Greek passive voice again is clear on that.

These are attempts ECTers make to try and get God off the hook.

But as is evidence in the Revelation 14:9-11 text, if one reads this literally, it is all done in the "presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."

The father provides for a way out but the child refuses to accept it. Adam and Eve were not condemned from the start but chose to condemn themselves by refusing to accept the warning that if they ate from the tree they would surely die. God in his infinite loving capacity still provides a way out but unless we accept it we will surely die.

Just like Adam we want to pass the blame off ourselves onto another. We will blame God for our destruction and perhaps even our eternal torment rather than take responsibility for it.

If you commit a crime and go to court and are sentenced to receive a punishment, do you condemn yourself, or rather is up to the judge to provide that punishment?

God alone is the judge of humanity, and he is the only one with the power to sentence to hell. Your defense does not get God off the hook if ECT were true.

 

[Stan1953]

Ta yeah I use Bible gateway a bit but I'm a long time E Sword man. Also Butch put me on to The Word which is tops because it parses and gives the verb forms etc. I'm still learning how to use it properly ( after i re download it :biggrin )

I have it but rarely use it. I got it because it has the ISV. I just find it easier to use Biblegateway, plus I can post a shortcut to the actual page if I use more than one translation, as it allow you to call up 5 translations.
I do like some of the tools in eSword.