How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?

[Alfred Persson]

Read what Christ said. Its an eye opener. Christ has the authority to make the dead alive equal with the Father. The Father did this so all would honor the Son even as they honor the Father. Just as the Father makes the Dead alive, brings down into hell and raises up, so does the Son, regardless where the Dead are .... above ground or in the grave, those who hear (=obey) will live:

21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)


JESUS IS EQUAL TO GOD IN HIS POWER AND SOVEREIGNTY

“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes.” (5:21)

By asserting His equality with God, Jesus claimed that He had the parallel power with God to raise the dead just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life. The Bible teaches that only God has the power to give life to the dead (Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6; 2 Kings 5:7; Acts 26:8; 2 Cor. 1:9; Heb. 11:19), and the Old Testament records several instances where He did so (1 Kings 17:17–24; 2 Kings 4:32–37; 13:20–21). Because His power is the same as the Father, Jesus Christ is able to raise the physically dead (11:25–44; Matt. 9:18–25; Luke 7:11–15; cf. John 6:39–40, 44). Moreover, He has the power to give spiritual life to the spiritually dead. “Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him,” Jesus promised, “shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life” (4:14). In John 6 He admonished His hearers, “Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you,” because He is “the bread of God … which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world” (vv. 27, 33; cf. vv. 35, 48, 54; 1:4; 10:28; 11:25; 14:6; 17:2).
Unlike Elijah (1 Kings 17:22) and Elisha (2 Kings 4:34–35), Jesus did not merely act as God’s representative when He raised the dead, but as God Himself. The Son Himself gives resurrection and spiritual life to whom He wishes. As God is the source of life, so Jesus Christ is the source of life.-MacArthur, J. F., Jr. (2006). John 1–11 (pp. 188–189). Moody Press.



28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 NKJ)

The Key question to answer, "when does the hour arrive?". At judgment Day, 1000 years after the Millennial reign of Christ (Rev. 20:11-15). Or does scripture say the dead heard His voice before that time?

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, (1 Pet. 3:18-19 NKJ)

6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)

8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men."
9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:8-10 NKJ)

14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes." (Hos. 13:14 NKJ)


Another question to answer, "to hear" in this context signifies "obediently hearing, believing" (John 5:24-25) and this separates those who rise to life from those who rise to codemnation.

Its how these "in the grave" react to Christ's voice they heard while in the grave that determines their fate:

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:21-29 KJV)

Many commentators minimize the subsequent (following) use of the aorist participle. Even such scholars as Robertson and Moulton, who recognize that the participle is not time-bound, resist this category of usage. But there are a number of examples in biblical and extra-biblical Greek where an aorist participle is used to refer to an action occurring after the action of the main verb. In virtually all of these examples, the aorist participle is placed after the main verb in syntactical order.-Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (p. 189). JSOT.

 

[Alfred Persson]

What does this mean?
equal in what sense?

Did what?

21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Equal in ability to "life to whom he will", "raise the dead", which equality He got from the Father so all would honor the Son JUST AS (equality) they honor the Father.

Before we go on, did you understand what Christ said?

 

[Alfred Persson]

None of these matters when you're redefining words, specifically, conflating mortal death with spiritual death. Unlike most people who just mindlessly react in their reply, I recognize your trick when I see one, and I expose it.

To "expose it" you first have to know what it is. Post #121 details my argument.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I never suggested a person can willfully and in full knowledge despise Christ and get a second chance.

Really ?
Perhaps you could add that point occasionally, as the thread grows longer.

I explained very carefully "ignorance" of God's truth must be present. I cited people born before Christ as examples.

Even the ignorant will be judged by their conscience.
Since Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, men have had a conscience to determine if their deeds are good or evil.

You refute a strawman distortion because scripture doesn't matter to your beliefs. If it did, you would discuss the scripture instead of ignoring it.

With the added caveat from this post, the dynamic of the thread has changed.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Really ?
Perhaps you could add that point occasionally, as the thread grows longer.

Even the ignorant will be judged by their conscience.
Since Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, men have had a conscience to determine if their deeds are good or evil.

With the added caveat from this post, the dynamic of the thread has changed.

I agree. I should create another thread for post #121 above. Back to the OP, scripture declares belief in Christ is necessary to be saved, and disbelief condemns:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

Therefore if judged by conscience, everyone still is condemned because they fail in one point and therefore are guilty of all.

It is the same for those judged by the Law, failing in even one point makes one guilty of all:

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
(Rom. 2:11-16 NKJ)

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. (Jas. 2:10 NKJ)

So one one is saved by their conscience. It may excuse us for many sins, but not all. AND that means no one can be saved by their conscience, "as many as have sinned without law WILL ALSO PERISH without law."

Therefore, there is no other name under the heavens than Jesus to be saved; one cannot be saved "in the name of conscience":

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

As that leaves billions of people to perish because they were ignorant of Christ, there must be a way the gospel of Christ is made known to everyone born since the foundation of the world, so they can be judged.

Why? God always does what is right, just, true to His Word. He says belief or non-belief are the only grounds for salvation and condemntion. Therefore, all born since the foundation of the world hear the gospel of Christ, somehow.

That "way" must be revealed in scripture because it is God's Word 100% true.

I revealed how God does it, elegantly true to Scripture, the very scriptures Christians despise....those that show the gospel is preached to everyone who dies, regardless when they die. God inhabits eternity, the life communicated through the Sacrifice of Christ is made through the Eternal Spirit, from the timeless Holy of Holies in heaven. It transcends space-time.

Everything I discussed is revealed in this context:

11 They will not teach every man his fellow citizen,and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'for all will know me,from the least of them to the greatest of them.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness.I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
13 In that he says, "A New Covenant," he has made the first old. But that which is becoming old and grows aged is near to vanishing away.
RPTE Hebrews 9:1 Now indeed even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary.
2 For a tabernacle was prepared. In the first part were the lampstand, the table, and the show bread; which is called the Holy Place.
3 After the second veil was the tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,
4 having a golden altar of incense, and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which was a golden pot holding the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant;
5 and above it cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat, of which things we cannot speak now in detail.
6 Now these things having been thus prepared, the priests go in continually into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the services,
7 but into the second the high priest alone, once in the year, not without blood, which he offers for himself, and for the errors of the people.
8 The Holy Spirit is indicating this, that the way into the Holy Place was not yet revealed while the first tabernacle was still standing;
9 which is a symbol of the present age, where gifts and sacrifices are offered that are incapable, concerning the conscience, of making the worshipper perfect;
10 being only (with meats and drinks and various washings) fleshly ordinances, imposed until a time of reformation.
11 But Christ having come as a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the Holy Place, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled, sanctify to the cleanness of the flesh:
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason he is the mediator of a New Covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where a last will and testament is, there must of necessity be the death of him who made it.
17 For a will is in force where there has been death, for it is never in force while he who made it lives.
18 Therefore even the first covenant has not been dedicated without blood.
19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you."
21 Moreover he sprinkled the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry in like manner with the blood.
22 According to the Law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation.

RPTE Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, having a shadow of the good to come, not the very image of the things, they can never with the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near.
2 Or else would not they have ceased to be offered, because the worshippers, having been once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins?
3 But in those sacrifices there is yearly reminder of sins.
4 For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.
5 Therefore when he comes into the world, he says,"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,but you prepared a body for me;
6 You had no pleasure in whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come (in the scroll of the book it is written of me)to do your will, O God.'"
8 Previously saying, "Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you did not desire, neither had pleasure in them" (those which are offered according to the Law),
9 then he has said, "Behold, I have come to do your will, O God." He takes away the first, that he may establish the second,
10 by which will we have been sanctified those through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest indeed stands day by day serving and often offering the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins,
12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God; (Heb. 8:11-10:12 RPTE)

 

[Hopeful 2]

I agree. I should create another thread for post #121 above. Back to the OP, scripture declares belief in Christ is necessary to be saved, and disbelief condemns:

Do you feel that there is no third state of belief ?
What of those who can't obey, or disobey, because they are unaware of God's commands ?
They are the ones Paul refers to in Rom 2:14-16..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
Those Gentiles are, of course, the ones not doing things contrary to their conscience.

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

Therefore if judged by conscience, everyone still is condemned because they fail in one point and therefore are guilty of all.

It is the same for those judged by the Law, failing in even one point makes one guilty of all:

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
(Rom. 2:11-16 NKJ)

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. (Jas. 2:10 NKJ)

So one one is saved by their conscience. It may excuse us for many sins, but not all. AND that means no one can be saved by their conscience, "as many as have sinned without law WILL ALSO PERISH without law."

Therefore, there is no other name under the heavens than Jesus to be saved; one cannot be saved "in the name of conscience":

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

As that leaves billions of people to perish because they were ignorant of Christ, there must be a way the gospel of Christ is made known to everyone born since the foundation of the world, so they can be judged.

Why? God always does what is right, just, true to His Word. He says belief or non-belief are the only grounds for salvation and condemntion. Therefore, all born since the foundation of the world hear the gospel of Christ, somehow.

I feel that your "only grounds" are not a true representation of Paul's words.
If there is a man or woman out there who lives according to a good conscience, what sin can he or she ever be accused of ?
I know the chances of that occurring are tiny, as all of the earth's people that are not in Christ walk in and after the "flesh".

That "way" must be revealed in scripture because it is God's Word 100% true.
I revealed how God does it, elegantly true to Scripture, the very scriptures Christians despise....those that show the gospel is preached to everyone who dies, regardless when they die. God inhabits eternity, the life communicated through the Sacrifice of Christ is made through the Eternal Spirit, from the timeless Holy of Holies in heaven. It transcends space-time. Everything I discussed is revealed in this context:

If a man wants to know God, He will reveal Himself to that man.
Nobody will be able to say to God on the day of judgement that they didn't get the chance to obey Him.
And all the disobedient will be raised to eternal condemnation.

 

[KV-44-v1]

I never suggested a person can willfully and in full knowledge despise Christ and get a second chance.

Ah, but that is undoubtedly a logical extension of your belief.

Athiests do not "suggest" that people should kill anyone, but if athiesm is true, anyone can do whatever they want, as under athiesm: 1. nothing is truly good or evil. 2. there is no ultimate consequence for certain interactions of matter with matter. Athiesm implies that humans are just matter.
And if your belief is true, we can toss away this 1st life to the roadside and repent on the 2nd! "Enjoy" the happy jollys of sin your ENTIRE 1st chance, repent only in the second!! What a "WONDERFUL" enticement for sinners to sin! No wonder this belief would grow popular, and fast.

Think about it. What if you were still stuck in sin? What would your response be to such a doctrine? hmmmmm????

So yes the athiest didnt SUGGEST such, nor did you suggest despising Christ and getting a 2nd chance. But its the OUTCOME.

 

[KV-44-v1]

perish

Why isn't the word "twice" in there? "Perish twice"? Man die once then judgment. No 2nd chance in between. Every time you cite "death then judgment" that debunks your argument because the Bible gives nothing between death and judgment in that verse.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Why isn't the word "twice" in there? "Perish twice"? Man die once then judgment. No 2nd chance in between. Every time you cite "death then judgment" that debunks your argument because the Bible gives nothing between death and judgment in that verse.

Which scripture do you refer to?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Ah, but that is undoubtedly a logical extension of your belief.

Incorrect, it is a lie about my beliefs. I clearly state:

However, Postmortem Opportunity for salvation does not exist for those who have deliberately and in full knowledge reject the gospel of Christ in this life (Heb. 6:4-8).

Ignorance of God is the only ground for divine mercy. Christ made this clear: “He who is not with me is against me” implies Christ’s identity is fully known. However, if “anyone speaks a word against the Son of Man” (His incarnation in human flesh veiling His identity) “it will be forgiven” “in the age to come” (Mt. 12:30, 32), for he spoke in ignorance of God.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Evidence of Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus “God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death.” (Ps. 68:20) Christ alone is the door to salvation. But what about those who lived before His time, or in places where His message was...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

Do you feel that there is no third state of belief ?
What of those who can't obey, or disobey, because they are unaware of God's commands ?
They are the ones Paul refers to in Rom 2:14-16..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."
Those Gentiles are, of course, the ones not doing things contrary to their conscience.

I feel that your "only grounds" are not a true representation of Paul's words.
If there is a man or woman out there who lives according to a good conscience, what sin can he or she ever be accused of ?
I know the chances of that occurring are tiny, as all of the earth's people that are not in Christ walk in and after the "flesh".

If a man wants to know God, He will reveal Himself to that man.
Nobody will be able to say to God on the day of judgement that they didn't get the chance to obey Him.
And all the disobedient will be raised to eternal condemnation.

Paul said conscience excuses AND accuses, so they ARE doing things contrary to conscience.

Show me where Paul says conscience will save someone. He said the opposite:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (Rom. 2:12 NKJ)

This is perplexing. You have scriptures clearly stating the gospel is preached also to the dead, "thus God reveals Himself to all", yet you reject that for an unscriptural theory you made up, that "if a man wants to know God He will reveal Himself" without even remotely explaining how that can happen with people born in pagan lands before Christ.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Paul said conscience excuses AND accuses, so they ARE doing things contrary to conscience.

Probably so.
Paul's whole intent in early Romans, was to show the Jews that just because they had the Law, it was no guarantee of salvation.
Salvation hinges on more than having Law.
Salvation required a life lived with a good conscience...with or without Law.

Show me where Paul says conscience will save someone. He said the opposite:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (Rom. 2:12 NKJ)

For as many have not sinned without Law shall not perish by the Law.

This is perplexing. You have scriptures clearly stating the gospel is preached also to the dead, "thus God reveals Himself to all",

The gospel was preached to the dead, while they were still alive.
Jesus' Spirit, in the prophets of yore, taught faith in God will save.
"...but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,..." (1 Peter 3:18-20)
"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven;..." (1 Peter 1:10-12)

yet you reject that for an unscriptural theory you made up, that "if a man wants to know God He will reveal Himself" without even remotely explaining how that can happen with people born in pagan lands before Christ.

The Ethiopian eunuch was a pagan born before Christ.
Abraham was a pagan born before Christ.
So were Isaac and Jacob !
God doesn't hide from those who want to know Him.

 

[Free]

Ignorance of God is the only ground for divine mercy. Christ made this clear: “He who is not with me is against me” implies Christ’s identity is fully known. However, if “anyone speaks a word against the Son of Man” (His incarnation in human flesh veiling His identity) “it will be forgiven” “in the age to come” (Mt. 12:30, 32), for he spoke in ignorance of God.

Is there such a thing as "ignorance of God"?

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

It doesn't seem that Paul thinks there is.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Probably so.
Paul's whole intent in early Romans, was to show the Jews that just because they had the Law, it was no guarantee of salvation.
Salvation hinges on more than having Law.
Salvation required a life lived with a good conscience...with or without Law.

For as many have not sinned without Law shall not perish by the Law.

The gospel was preached to the dead, while they were still alive.
Jesus' Spirit, in the prophets of yore, taught faith in God will save.
"...but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,..." (1 Peter 3:18-20)
"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven;..." (1 Peter 1:10-12)

The Ethiopian eunuch was a pagan born before Christ.
Abraham was a pagan born before Christ.
So were Isaac and Jacob !
God doesn't hide from those who want to know Him.

I disagree. Salvation always required God's grace through Faith:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph. 2:8 NKJ)

Everyone judged by their conscience will go to perdition.

You made up a scripture, very dangerous. Everyone sins:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law. (Rom. 2:12 NKJ)

I agree "God doesn't hide from those who want to know Him", I disagree with your unfounded unscriptural theories how God accomplishes that. The solution how He does it, was revealed by both Peter (1 Pet. 4:6) and Paul (Heb. 9:27-28) and Jesus (John 5:24-28).

 

[Alfred Persson]

Is there such a thing as "ignorance of God"?

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (ESV)

It doesn't seem that Paul thinks there is.

I can study the heavens all I want, and never learn about Jesus Christ and His sacrifice; Or God's Name. The text you cite says man is without excuse for the fact God exists is clearly evident in everything He made.

Its not enough information to save a man, only enough revelation to condemn him.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I disagree. Salvation always required God's grace through Faith:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, (Eph. 2:8 NKJ)

Without God's grace, all the sinners would die in their sins.

Everyone judged by their conscience will go to perdition.

Gotta' disagree.
It is written..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-16)

You made up a scripture, very dangerous.

If you wish to refer to my writings as scripture, I am glad.
But that is not my intention.

Everyone sins:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law. (Rom. 2:12 NKJ)

Before there was the Law, sin was not imputed.
Since Jesus' resurrection, all can be non-sinners !
The scrip' you used didn't include those who did not sin without Law.

I agree "God doesn't hide from those who want to know Him", I disagree with your unfounded unscriptural theories how God accomplishes that. The solution how He does it, was revealed by both Peter (1 Pet. 4:6) and Paul (Heb. 9:27-28).

It wasn't unfounded, because it WAS scriptural.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

To "expose it" you first have to know what it is. Post #121 details my argument.

"It" is your conflation of mortal death and spiritual death. In the bible there's a clear distinction between the first death and second death. I do read what Jesus said, but I don't read what you have to say as long as you argue in your own Newspeak.

 

[Alfred Persson]

"It" is your conflation of mortal death and spiritual death. In the bible there's a clear distinction between the first death and second death. I do read what Jesus said, but I don't read what you have to say as long as you argue in your own Newspeak.

"A" cannot be "B" at the same time. "First" death cannot be "second" death. The first death all in Adam share, the "second death" is to "die the death of the wicked", from whence there is no resurrection [return].

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 NKJ)

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:14 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Without God's grace, all the sinners would die in their sins.

Gotta' disagree.
It is written..."For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-16)

If you wish to refer to my writings as scripture, I am glad.
But that is not my intention.

Before there was the Law, sin was not imputed.
Since Jesus' resurrection, all can be non-sinners !
The scrip' you used didn't include those who did not sin without Law.

It wasn't unfounded, because it WAS scriptural.

If it were scriptural, you would have scripture in support of it.

Your "verse" could have fooled someone other than myself. I never confuse my words with God's:

"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2 NKJ)

You disagree with Paul, he says conscience only excuses some sin, not all of it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

"A" cannot be "B" at the same time. "First" death cannot be "second" death. The first death all in Adam share, the "second death" is to "die the death of the wicked", from whence there is no resurrection [return].

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 NKJ)

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Rev. 20:14 NKJ)

That's not what you argued in your post 121. You said the dead and the living are the same.