How does God Judge those who never heard the gospel of Christ?

[Alfred Persson]

That's not what you argued in your post 121. You said the dead and the living are the same.

No, I didn't. Feel free to copy paste the exact wording to "prove me wrong."

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, I didn't. Feel free to copy paste the exact wording to "prove me wrong."

You said "regardless where they are .... above ground or in the grave", but where they are does matter to God - "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, He's risen!" (Lk. 24:5-6)

 

[Alfred Persson]

You said "regardless where they are .... above ground or in the grave", but where they are does matter to God - "Why do you seek the living among the dead? He is not here, He's risen!" (Lk. 24:5-6)

"regardless where the Dead are .... above ground or in the grave, those who hear (=obey) will live:"

Where do you see "living and dead are the same thing?"

"Regardless where the [spiritually] dead are, physically alive or in hell, those who hear Christ's voice (=obey it, believe in Christ) will live.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

"regardless where the Dead are .... above ground or in the grave, those who hear (=obey) will live:"

Where do you see "living and dead are the same thing?"

"Regardless where the [spiritually] dead are, physically alive or in hell, those who hear Christ's voice (=obey it, believe in Christ) will live.

So now you stealthily add "spiritually" in? Where was it in the initial statement which you spammed over and over again? And you have the audacity to deny that you've been conflating mortal death with spiritual death? I'm not here to debate with you on what "spiritually dead" means, I've been consistently talking about mortal death, you subtly changed the definition.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If it were scriptural, you would have scripture in support of it.

Somethings are just common sense.

Your "verse" could have fooled someone other than myself. I never confuse my words with God's:

Your doctrine of a second chance for salvation after death, shows worse than confusion.
It totally negates the need for a Savior.

"You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut. 4:2 NKJ)
You disagree with Paul, he says conscience only excuses some sin, not all of it.

Conscience doesn't excuse any sin.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So now you stealthily add "spiritually" in? Where was it in the initial statement which you spammed over and over again? And you have the audacity to deny that you've been conflating mortal death with spiritual death? I'm not here to debate with you on what "spiritually dead" means, I've been consistently talking about mortal death, you subtly changed the definition.

I explained what I meant because you don't understand it. I didn't change anything, "spiritual" death is what everyone in Adam suffers until they are born again.

Everyone Christ talked to were "DEAD MEN WALKING", spiritually dead in Adam. Only those who believed then became "spiritually alive":

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. (Jn. 5:24-25 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Somethings are just common sense.

Your doctrine of a second chance for salvation after death, shows worse than confusion.
It totally negates the need for a Savior.

Conscience doesn't excuse any sin.

Common sense would try to understand what someone says, not make things up. For example, how does this statement: "The opportunity for salvation in this life or the afterlife, is exclusively in Christ, by belief in Him" mean the "need for a Savior" is negated.

Show me the common sense in your interpretation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I explained what I meant because you don't understand it. I didn't change anything, "spiritual" death is what everyone in Adam suffers until they are born again.

Yes you did, initially you kept arguing that the dead in Hades can be converted and saved upon hearing the gospel, that scenario was only limited to mortal death, you later changed it into "spiritual" death.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes you did, initially you kept arguing that the dead in Hades can be converted and saved upon hearing the gospel, that scenario was only limited to mortal death, you later changed it into "spiritual" death.

You still don't understand my point. Its elementary. Jesus said those who believe in Him NOW (while physically alive) "pass from death into life". According to Jesus, everyone NOW (while physically alive) are "dead":

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. (Jn. 5:24-25 NKJ)

In other words, "NOW IS" when Jesus was speaking, therefore "when the dead will hear" was then, those physically alive listening. Those who believed He is the Christ, "will live" = pass from DEATH into life.

Millions of Christians report this happened when they believed, they were "born from above" (=born again, new birth), they were lost but are now found, dead but now alive.

Why you have trouble understanding this is odd. What belief do you have about "body, soul, spirit" that prevents you from understanding Christ words? All in Adam are Dead, All in Christ are alive:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 NKJ)

To paraphrase:
For as "in Adam" all born are dead spiritually, even so "in Christ" all born are alive spiritually---are born again, made alive....pass from death into life.

"Spiritually alive" is not imaginary. When a person believes in Christ God the Holy Spirit animates (regenerates, recreates, shares divine nature with) their soul and it becomes a "new creature" alive in Christ:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17 KJV)

The "new birth" isn't just doctrine we believe, its an event we experience spiritually discerned. Our "perception" of God changes, God is now our ABBA "Father" and we are led by the Holy Spirit of God:

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors-- not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (Rom. 8:11-16 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You still don't understand my point. Its elementary. Jesus said those who believe in Him NOW (while physically alive) "pass from death into life". According to Jesus, everyone NOW (while physically alive) are "dead":

Nope, "pass from death into life" is a prophecy about future resurrection, not the current spiritual state, it's the mystery Paul preached in 1 Cor. 15, therefore it only means mortal death.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Nope, "pass from death into life" is a prophecy about future resurrection, not the current spiritual state, it's the mystery Paul preached in 1 Cor. 15, therefore it only means mortal death.

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

Jesus said people in His audience had passed from death to life:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Of course it applies to the future also, but passing from death into life began when people believed Christ's voice.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes you did, initially you kept arguing that the dead in Hades can be converted and saved upon hearing the gospel, that scenario was only limited to mortal death, you later changed it into "spiritual" death.

You misunderstood, it begins with the soul being animated with Spirit, the resurrection happens later:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 RPTE)

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52)

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I reject all departures from Exclusivism. Salvation is possible ONLY "through Jesus Christ". Sinners in or out of the law perish when judged. There are no exceptions. But God is just for reasons few realize. Everyone who tried to follow the law or their conscience can be saved "through Jesus Christ":

12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom. 2:12-16 NKJ)

Romans 2:16 gives the key many miss. Literally "διὰ Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ" is "through Jesus Christ".

Look how the phrase is used in the NT:

NKJ Jn. 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
NKJ Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ-- He is Lord of all--
NKJ Rom. 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJ Rom. 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJ Rom. 5:21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
NKJ Rom. 7:25 I thank God-- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJ Rom. 16:27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen 1>.
NKJ 2 Cor. 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
NKJ Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
NKJ Eph. 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJ Eph. 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
NKJ Phil. 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
NKJ Tit. 3:6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
NKJ Heb. 13:21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJ 1 Pet. 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
NKJ 1 Pet. 4:11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

In other words, Christ's sacrifice bears the sins of these who tried to be righteous. But as is true of everyone, our righteousness isn't enough to be saved. Like us, God has reconciled them "through Jesus Christ" our LORD.

That is how God can judge the World, through Jesus Christ.

No one is judged apart from Christ, His sacrifice is applied to all these who died without Christ:

THAT is what Hebrews 9:22-28 also says, the eternal sacrifice of Christ is applied to everyone born since the foundation of the world and after men die, in the judgment Christ's sacrifice "bears the sin of many" who then repent and believe in His name. THESE eagerly wait for Christ's second coming for salvation:

22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:22-28 NKJ)

Salvation of everyone happens EXCLUSIVELY "through Jesus Christ", even the salvation of Adam and Eve and everyone born brain dead, who died before the age of accountability....No one is saved apart from Christ in any other name.

This is why the gospel must also be preached to the dead, so they can be judged according to the judgment all men receive:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

God is just, there is no partiality with God. Everyone has an equal shot at being saved regardless their geographical, temporal, or physical circumstances.

This is why God sacrificed His only begotten Son, so the entire Kosmos (entire world of men leaving no one out) can be saved according to the same principle:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Jn. 3:14-18 NKJ)

You said:

In other words, Christ's sacrifice bears the sins of these who tried to be righteous. But as is true of everyone, our righteousness isn't enough to be saved. Like us, God has reconciled them "through Jesus Christ" our LORD.

My response:

Exactly! Well put.

 

[deepfaithpraise]

That only applies to "hearers of the law", whether they are doers or not. Which Gentiles ever fulfilled the law "according to their conscience." Can you name them? I can't.

Which idolatrous demon worshiping Gentile fulfilled the law according to their conscience? Remember, if they didn't do ALL the law, broke only some of it, they failed:

10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. (Jas. 2:10 NKJ)

Therefore, if "law = conscience", then violating one's conscience even once makes the sinner "guilty of all"

On judgment Day our conscience will find lots of things to accuse us of, and hardly nothing that excuses us. Our conscience will not declare us righteous. Everyone would fail that Judgment.

Everyone is saved by Grace through faith in Jesus' name.

John 3:16-18 doesn't mention conscience...only belief in Christ saves, disbelief condemns. Nothing said about consience at all.

Acts 4:12 also rules out being saved "in the name of one's conscience".

I find this stuff fascinating and tricky.

The Church has wrestled with this for ages. We've got ideas like "invincible ignorance" to try and make sense of it. Basically, we hope God's merciful to those who never had a fair shot at knowing Christ.

From a psych perspective, it's wild how much our beliefs are shaped by our environment and experiences. It's not always a level playing field, you know?

Honestly, this question keeps me up sometimes. It's hard to square the idea of a loving God with condemning people who never even heard of Jesus. But I guess we have to trust that God's got a bigger picture we can't see.

In the end, I think we've got to focus on living out Christ's love ourselves and spreading the good word where we can. The rest? Well, we've gotta trust God's got it handled in ways we might not understand.

What do you think about all this? It's a mind-bender, right?

 

[Alfred Persson]

I find this stuff fascinating and tricky.

The Church has wrestled with this for ages. We've got ideas like "invincible ignorance" to try and make sense of it. Basically, we hope God's merciful to those who never had a fair shot at knowing Christ.

From a psych perspective, it's wild how much our beliefs are shaped by our environment and experiences. It's not always a level playing field, you know?

Honestly, this question keeps me up sometimes. It's hard to square the idea of a loving God with condemning people who never even heard of Jesus. But I guess we have to trust that God's got a bigger picture we can't see.

In the end, I think we've got to focus on living out Christ's love ourselves and spreading the good word where we can. The rest? Well, we've gotta trust God's got it handled in ways we might not understand.

What do you think about all this? It's a mind-bender, right?

I think the book of Hebrews solves this. It says the Sacrifice of Christ was "transtemporal", made in Eternity because His blood was offered in the heavenly Holy of Holies. This means everyone born since the foundation of the world learns about Christ upon physical death, even those born "Before Christ".

It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment (Heb. 9:27 KJV) | End Time News

Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Christ: A Theological Examination of Salvation Beyond Temporal and Geographical Boundaries Abstract This paper explores the theological question of salvation for those who, due to the limitations of time and place, have not had direct access to the message...

endtimenews.net

 

[Hopeful 2]

Common sense would try to understand what someone says, not make things up. For example, how does this statement: "The opportunity for salvation in this life or the afterlife, is exclusively in Christ, by belief in Him" mean the "need for a Savior" is negated.

Show me the common sense in your interpretation.

The Savior came to free men from sin during their lives.
Your POV says that His suffering and death were not necessary, because there will be a second chance of salvation after death.
With your outlook, you can be as wicked as any Hitler, and wait till later to do something you have yet to define.
Will dead men still need to repent and get baptized for the remission of their past sins ?
Will they still receive the gift of the Holy Ghost like we can now ?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12; Rom. 10:9; 1 Tim. 2:5-6; 1 Peter 2:6-8; 1 John 5:11-12), how does God judge those who never heard of Christ or heard disinformation about Him?

According to the Apostle Paul in Romans 1:18-20, they and all humans are without excuse because they have replaced their Creator with the creation in their worship and service. They are guilty.

 

[Alfred Persson]

According to the Apostle Paul in Romans 1:18-20, they and all humans are without excuse because they have replaced their Creator with the creation in their worship and service. They are guilty.

Yes, everyone is guilty. All in Adam are already dead, separated from God. But God made belief in Christ central, pivotal:

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God. (Jn. 3:17-18 RPTE)

The judgment whether one is saved or condemned hinges on belief or non-belief in Christ. God evidently "overlooks" everything else:

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:29-31 KJV)

 

[KV-44-v1]

in the age to come

How do you know this is referring to some 2nd chance thing and not, say, the Millennial Kingdom?

You have scriptures clearly stating the gospel is preached also to the dead

You are assuming it was preached to them when they were dead. It just says "the dead" but not when the Gospel was preached.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 . Clearly both cant be true at the same time. Either your belief is or Ecclesiastes is.

Obviously the dead knew stuff when they were alive. Therefore Ecc. 9:5 can only be referring to the dead while they are dead.
And thus, "preached/preaching to the dead" refers to when they were still alive.

 

[KV-44-v1]

So they are without excuse.

Are. Present tense. Acts 17:30
'Having overlookED'. 'IS NOW proclaiming'.
So is God's work obvious to all now, after Jesus' death and resurrection?

You made up a scripture, very dangerous.

What is the Scripture that he "made up"? can you cite it?

ty

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-16)

If the people are so perfect they can follow an infallible concience, why would their thoughts accuse them? Unintentional sin. They did not know their action was a violation of the order of the Biblical God, as opposed to an order of, say, a different one.

Conscience should not be our final ethical authority because it is, unlike God's revealed Word, changeable and fallible. Your "Put faith in the concience" doctrine and "Following the concience fully will result in sinlessness" belief are peak pride. If the concience does (and it does a lot) contradict God, it is in error. Unintentional sin! The Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things. So how would we know for a fact our concience would be correct? So if lying is acceptable to someones concience, does lying turn into a not-sin?? Do not "follow your heart".

Do not rely so heavily on the fallible, alterable concience.