How does Pork Kill you?

[Benoni]

Did not Jesus blood do a complete job, or do we need to go back to the law?
I am not under the law...
I am under grace.

To change our bodies into something He did not intend might lead to other sin we can not fathom.

I very seriously doubt that using a some part of an animal to save a father and husbands life is going to lead to sin.

.

I don't doubt that going against God's laws can cause serious repercussions.

 

[Fembot]

Did not Jesus blood do a complete job, or do we need to go back to the law?
I am not under the law...
I am under grace.

So, you can sin, sin sin and make it to heaven?

 

[Benoni]

It is his rightousness not mine. I am a sinner, I was born a sinner, I will die a sinner. That is the way God created all of us. I am a slave to sin, my GGrandfather Adam sinned and we all were born in sin; and it was not Adam's fault so why should it be mine?

I claim no rightousness on my own, it is his death on Calvary that makes me rightous. To claim I am rightous makes me self rightous.

Did not Jesus blood do a complete job, or do we need to go back to the law?
I am not under the law...
I am under grace.

So, you can sin, sin sin and make it to heaven?

 

[Sparkey]

Did not Jesus blood do a complete job, or do we need to go back to the law?
I am not under the law...
I am under grace.

So, you can sin, sin sin and make it to heaven?

We know. All those who depart from sin do. Even those departing do. Even those convicted and planning on departing do. THIS is the work of the Holy Spirit in us. That we might be like Him, by whose grace we are able to glimpse and behold.

~Sparrow

 

[Fembot]

It is his rightousness not mine. I am a sinner, I was born a sinner, I will die a sinner. That is the way God created all of us. I am a slave to sin, my GGrandfather Adam sinned and we all were born in sin; and it was not Adam's fault so why should it be mine?

I claim no rightousness on my own, it is his death on Calvary that makes me rightous. To claim I am rightous makes me self rightous.

LOL

Grace = Obedience = Salvation

Not

Grace + 0 = Salvation

Romans 6:15

The apostle clearly shows that a Christian is to live a certain kind of lifeâ€â€a godly one, of courseâ€â€in the teeth of the attacks of human nature, sin, the world, and Satan. The very reason we are to obey is because of God's grace. Why? Because of the grace of God, a person can, for the first time in his life, make the right choices. That is what obligates us. Before that, he was the servant of sin, in bondage to Satan, but now he is free.

One can not continue to live in sin and make it to heaven. Especially when you aware what His laws are. That is abuse. The more you sin, the more you become separated from God. Yes, we are all sinners. But God will not accept those who choose to ignore Him when He calls .

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: John 10:27


"Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near" Isaiah 55:6

Being then made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. Romans 6:17-18

Repent and turn away from sin. As Christians, we are not free from sin, but we know His laws. Continuing a life of sin after sin will cause us to stumble inviting the devil into our lives. We don't know when we will leave this place. If we are living a life of sin and pass away before repenting and turning away from that sin, then we do not receive salvation.

 

[zer0das]

I'm not really sure how this thread went from "pork is bad for you" to "if you eat pork or have a pig heart valve, you are (probably) sinning." Not that that was ever said explicitly, but that's basically what is being argued. I was under the impression that Paul talked about this subject in enough detail that this wasn't really an issue.

"When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Because certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is is that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?" Galatians 2:11-14

"... know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:15

If you follow this part of the law, why not follow all of it? It makes no sense, save through the freedom of Christ. Which the spirit of the law is alive and well in, but the letter has been superseded. There's a pretty big difference between following the law and pleasing God, as Jesus made quite clear.

 

[Sparkey]

I am so confused by the "pork wars" on the forum. Is it somehow ordained to be endless?

Should somebody make yet another thread asking, "Who is still under the Old Covenant LAW specifically given to the Children of Israel while they were in the wilderness concerning eating clean and not eating unclean meats?" Maybe it could be a poll? < Please finish reading before anyone does > :drool

From among those who think they are my next question would be, "Unto what baptism have you been baptized?" John the Baptists? For truly he baptized unto repentance.

Maybe it's simply a matter of asking the right question(s)? What baptism are YOU ? There is absolutely no need to answer; I would assume that anybody who was baptized by that man John, who was bound by the agreement made between God and Israel in the wilderness concerning the eating of unclean meats, would already have passed beyond the reach of the question. Can men read or subscribe to the internet from the grave? I think no.

If there were anyone who was considering coming to the Lord and seeking salvation I would by no means attempt to confuse them with a bunch of laws that have zero effect on the newborn. Even if John the Baptist were the greatest person who ever lived under the old agreement between God and the chosen of people, and that new saint were said to be the "least" in the next - yet he would be greater. I thought I read something about that.

Properly speaking this thread does not belong in the Apologetics / Theology area. IMO it would be better placed in the General area. -BUT- I really do appreciate all the trouble and work that goes into maintaining the forum too much to bother anybody about it. Let's all of us then (pork eaters and pork refrainers and even Porky Pig himself should he happen to stop by ) stop and ask the Lord to bless those above us - with an abundance of patience for us - as they continue their voluntary service to us - and for the Lord.


~Sparrowhawke

 

[Drew]

Did not Jesus blood do a complete job, or do we need to go back to the law?
I am not under the law...
I am under grace.

So, you can sin, sin sin and make it to heaven?

You seem to think that the Torah - the Law - is an eternal standard and whoever violates it is sinning. I trust you are aware of the actual content of the Law, above and beyond the 10 commandments. Here is just a sample:

'If a man commits adultery with another man's wifeâ€â€with the wife of his neighborâ€â€both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death;

'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. 26 If, however, a man has no one to redeem it for him but he himself prospers and acquires sufficient means to redeem it, 27 he is to determine the value for the years since he sold it and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it; he can then go back to his own property. 28 But if he does not acquire the means to repay him, what he sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and he can then go back to his property.

Do you do obey these laws? My point is not to imply these laws were "bad" in their time. But their time has come and gone. If you read the entirety of scripture, I suggest that you will discern that the Torah was a thing for a particular people and a particular time. That time has now passed.

A further illustration: The Torah prescribes all sorts of ways to do sacrfices. Are to take animals and sacrifice them to God right now?

I trust you will not try to drive a wedge between "ceremonial law" and "moral law" and claim that it is only the moral component that issstill to be obeyed. I suggest that there is no scriptural basis for drawing such a distinction. If you are going to say that we are to obey the "Law" - and that means the written code of 613 rules and practices - then you need to obey it all. You cannot pick and choose.

 

[Benoni]

This has been covered all ready. I am not under the law. Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).

A schoolmaster, (the Greek text gives, a child conductor), was one who held the child in restraint as they conducted the child from home to the school, making sure that there was no mischief along the way, and that the child arrived at the school. Then the child was given over to the care of the teacher, and the duty of the child conductor was ended. The child conductor did not stand in the back of the class room and continue to exercise control and authority over the child, for now the Teacher was in control, and there was to be no outside interference. So also, once we have been brought to Christ, and His anointing abides within us, we are to be led by the Spirit.

Did not Jesus blood do a complete job, or do we need to go back to the law?
I am not under the law...
I am under grace.

So, you can sin, sin sin and make it to heaven?

You seem to think that the Torah - the Law - is an eternal standard and whoever violates it is sinning. I trust you are aware of the actual content of the Law, above and beyond the 10 commandments. Here is just a sample:

'If a man commits adultery with another man's wifeâ€â€with the wife of his neighborâ€â€both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death;

'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. 26 If, however, a man has no one to redeem it for him but he himself prospers and acquires sufficient means to redeem it, 27 he is to determine the value for the years since he sold it and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it; he can then go back to his own property. 28 But if he does not acquire the means to repay him, what he sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and he can then go back to his property.

Do you do obey these laws? My point is not to imply these laws were "bad" in their time. But their time has come and gone. If you read the entirety of scripture, I suggest that you will discern that the Torah was a thing for a particular people and a particular time. That time has now passed.

A further illustration: The Torah prescribes all sorts of ways to do sacrfices. Are to take animals and sacrifice them to God right now?

I trust you will not try to drive a wedge between "ceremonial law" and "moral law" and claim that it is only the moral component that issstill to be obeyed. I suggest that there is no scriptural basis for drawing such a distinction. If you are going to say that we are to obey the "Law" - and that means the written code of 613 rules and practices - then you need to obey it all. You cannot pick and choose.

 

[Drew]

One can not continue to live in sin and make it to heaven. Especially when you aware what His laws are.

I actually agree with you on this point although I think (although I am not 100% sure of this) that we disagree on the matter of the "Law". I trust you realize that when the word "Law" is used in the Bible (e.g. by Paul) the term does not refer to the "10 commandments" or to some general moral principles.

You need to place yourself back in Biblical context. To the writers of the Bible, the term "Law" referred very specifically to the Torah - the Law of Moses. If you think we are still to obey the law, you should be sacrificing animals in a temple, steering clear of lepers, and doing all sorts of similar things that are set forth in "the Law".

There is a lot more that could be said. For the present, I want to point out that the Law of Moses - the written code - has been declared by Paul (and Jesus) for that matter to be abolished. It was not abolished because it was a bad thing. It was abolished because it was a good thing that had completed its job.

 

[Drew]

This has been covered all ready. I am not under the law. Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).

You are absolutely correct here. If one chases up the meaning of the Greek word "paidagogos" - the word translated as "school-master" here, one will see that the paidagagos only was in the picture till the child came of age. And then his job was done.

This text from Galatians 3 has to be swept quielty under the rug if one wants to hold to the position that the Law - the written code - is still in effect.

And there are many other texts that similarly and unambiguously declare the end of the written code - texts from Ephesians, Romans, Colossians (if not others).

 

[Benoni]

Amen..

Thank you. So much of God's deep and awesome Word has a you have so graciously put it has been swept under the rug.

This has been covered all ready. I am not under the law. Wherefore the law was our school-master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:21-24).

You are absolutely correct here. If one chases up the meaning of the Greek word "paidagogos" - the word translated as "school-master" here, one will see that the paidagagos only was in the picture till the child came of age. And then his job was done.

This text from Galatians 3 has to be swept quielty under the rug if one wants to hold to the position that the Law - the written code - is still in effect.

And there are many other texts that similarly and unambiguously declare the end of the written code - texts from Ephesians, Romans, Colossians (if not others).

 

[Drew]

Part of the problem is that people extract the "pork law" from the Bible, note that there may indeed be "health" issues with pork and then conclude that the prohibition against pork functioned as a "health promotion" rule. And since pork is still pork, they somehow think the law is eternal.

There is a big problem with this over and above Jesus' clear statements that no foods defile the person (Mark 7) and Paul's clear statements that the written code has come to an end. That other problem is a failure to understand the reason that God gave such laws in the first place:

'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations. 25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds....

The Torah functioned to set the Jew apart from his pagan neighbour. God was not primarily interested in giving the Jews a "healthy diet" - He was interested in marking them out as distinct. And that marking out actually serves a seminal role in the long plan of redemption which reaches it climax on the cross.

 

[Benoni]

Pork is also a spiritual symbolism just like Jesus being the lamb of God doe not mean he ate grass and you could give him a hair cut and make a wool sweater.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)


The Bible is full of natural laws and rules that point to a deeper and greater undersanding of God's purpose.

Part of the problem is that people extract the "pork law" from the Bible, note that there may indeed be "health" issues with pork and then conclude that the prohibition against pork functioned as a "health promotion" rule. And since pork is still pork, they somehow think the law is eternal.

There is a big problem with this over and above Jesus' clear statements that no foods defile the person (Mark 7) and Paul's clear statements that the written code has come to an end. That other problem is a failure to understand the reason that God gave such laws in the first place:

'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations. 25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds....

The Torah functioned to set the Jew apart from his pagan neighbour. God was not primarily interested in giving the Jews a "healthy diet" - He was interested in marking them out as distinct. And that marking out actually serves a seminal role in the long plan of redemption which reaches it climax on the cross.

 

[stovebolts]

Perfect Adam, stated as VERY GOOD! God does not create flawed goods! Gen. 2:15 finds an FORBIDDEN TREE in the Garden with a FATAL WARNING. And we find in Heb. 13:8 that CHRIST/GOD is SAME FOREVER, HE NEVER CHANGES!(and this disobedience is no worse that any of the other ten! James 2:8-12)

Then here comes satan telling us that God is a LIAR! (Gen. 3:4) And with the Rev. 17:5 ones 'mostly' all teaching the same stuff!

And as satanic, is the teaching that there is NO CONDITION TO SALVATION, or the GODHEADS GRACE!

Again, Christ NEVER CHANGES! And Adam was SINLESS & UNDER ETERNAL GRACE, [as long as the Eternal Covenant CONDITION WAS OBEYED!] Heb. 13:20

--Elijah

Elijah,
Very good does not equal perfect....

ASV Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

 

[Fembot]

Part of the problem is that people extract the "pork law" from the Bible, note that there may indeed be "health" issues with pork and then conclude that the prohibition against pork functioned as a "health promotion" rule. And since pork is still pork, they somehow think the law is eternal.

There is a big problem with this over and above Jesus' clear statements that no foods defile the person (Mark 7) and Paul's clear statements that the written code has come to an end. That other problem is a failure to understand the reason that God gave such laws in the first place:

'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations. 25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds....

The Torah functioned to set the Jew apart from his pagan neighbour. God was not primarily interested in giving the Jews a "healthy diet" - He was interested in marking them out as distinct. And that marking out actually serves a seminal role in the long plan of redemption which reaches it climax on the cross.

Please point out where God says "you can now eat this filthy animal?"

 

[Drew]

Please point out where God says "you can now eat this filthy animal?"

From Mark 7:

there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man.

....If a person believes that eating pork defiles you, then that person is not agreeing with Jesus.

Also from Mark 7:

Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared (R)all foods (S)clean.)

----Jesus clearly asserts that nothng you eat defiles you.

Now I am not saying that there may not be be health implication associated with eating pork. There are health implications with eating twinkies, drinking coke....lots of things.

The question that is relevant to our purposes is the status of pork in respect to the Torah - the written law of Moses.

The specifically Biblical position on this is crystal clear - it was "unclean", but now it is not. T'his is not to say that eating pork is good for you. But there is no sense in which eating pork is violation of God's law anymore than eating a bag of cheetos is.

 

[Sparkey]

Please point out where God says "you can now eat this filthy animal?"

Also from Mark 7:

Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared (R)all foods (S)clean.)

My eye becomes curious - what do the footnotes for (R) and (S) in your quote mention, please?

Also when we discuss "the problem" can we be more specific please? I seek an end to this. If the problem is that somebody doesn't eat something I'd have to object because there can be no end to it. Let's say that I don't eat pork because I don't. But let me go and eat pork with you today. Now does that mean that I'm okay? I still don't eat lobster. So let's go and eateth us some loberstereth. But am I out of the wood yet? Are you? I say it is okay and not "unclean" for you to chew and sometimes eat your fingernails. There is no mention in the Torah that prohibits it but we are God's temple right? So many you will think that I am an eater of human flesh? Am I a cannibal? Would you be if you chewed and occasionally swallowed a fingernail?

What do the footnotes mentioned in your source say about fingernails?

~Sparrow

 

[jasoncran]

Please point out where God says "you can now eat this filthy animal?"

Also from Mark 7:

Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared (R)all foods (S)clean.)

My eye becomes curious - what do the footnotes for (R) and (S) in your quote mention, please?

Also when we discuss "the problem" can we be more specific please? I seek an end to this. If the problem is that somebody doesn't eat something I'd have to object because there can be no end to it. Let's say that I don't eat pork because I don't. But let me go and eat pork with you today. Now does that mean that I'm okay? I still don't eat lobster. So let's go and eateth us some loberstereth. But am I out of the wood yet? Are you? I say it is okay and not "unclean" for you to chew and sometimes eat your fingernails. There is no mention in the Torah that prohibits it but we are God's temple right? So many you will think that I am an eater of human flesh? Am I a cannibal? Would you be if you chewed and occasionally swallowed a fingernail?

What do the footnotes mentioned in your source say about fingernails?

~Sparrow

understood but we as americans or westerners or those living in a wealthy nation have a choice, those other third and fourth dont, lack of ample food supply changes one diet, if i was starving i would anything didn't kill me or wasn't human.

if we are missionary to said poor country and they offer us an unclean thing to eat shoud we refuse if we are trying to win them over. they may be insulted, not just pigs have worms, cows and chickens get diseases as well. in afghanistan i've seen a 4ft worm in a 4 yrd old whose main diet was sheep,chicken, and rice.
anything unprepared will hurt you

jason

 

[Drew]

My eye becomes curious - what do the footnotes for (R) and (S) in your quote mention, please?

They are cross-references - I cut and paste from the NASB version on biblegateway.com. I should have deleted them - my argument makes no connection to the cross-references.

Also when we discuss "the problem" can we be more specific please? I seek an end to this. If the problem is that somebody doesn't eat something I'd have to object because there can be no end to it. Let's say that I don't eat pork because I don't. But let me go and eat pork with you today. Now does that mean that I'm okay? I still don't eat lobster. So let's go and eateth us some loberstereth. But am I out of the wood yet? Are you? I say it is okay and not "unclean" for you to chew and sometimes eat your fingernails. There is no mention in the Torah that prohibits it but we are God's temple right? So many you will think that I am an eater of human flesh? Am I a cannibal? Would you be if you chewed and occasionally swallowed a fingernail?

I cannot understand what you are asking. Can you please rephrase. I am saying, as you will certainly know from the other thread basically the following:

1. The Torah indeed prohibited the eating of certain foods (for the Jew);
2. The Torah, and more specifically the food laws, were done away with by the actions of Jesus;

Can you please make an equally terse and explicit statement of your position - I cannot make sense of what you are writing.

Are you concerned about matters of the "health" issue? That eating pork can give you various sicknesses or can clog your arteries. I would not deny this. But the same is true of many other foods. I submit, appealing to a clear statement from Leviticus 20, that the food laws were never specifically instituted for "health" reasons. They were instituted to make the Jew distinct from the rest of the world.