How free is our will?

[Dave Slayer]

How free is our will? Do men have free will to choose God? What is Biblical?

 

[follower of Christ]

How free is our will? Do men have free will to choose God? What is Biblical?

We can make choices within the parameters God has given us.
I cant choose to teleport to the moon.
I can choose, however, to run my car into a tree.

 

[Elf]

How free is our will? Do men have free will to choose God? What is Biblical?

Well, no one ever chose God against their will.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

How free is our will? Do men have free will to choose God? What is Biblical?

Well, no one ever chose God against their will.

I think someone forgot the Crusades, the Spanish inqusition, and the Colonization of the Americas and the Nordic Island nations. :ohwell

 

[Elf]

[quote="Dave Slayer":2vqpl365]How free is our will? Do men have free will to choose God? What is Biblical?

Well, no one ever chose God against their will.

I think someone forgot the Crusades, the Spanish inqusition, and the Colonization of the Americas and the Nordic Island nations. :ohwell[/quote:2vqpl365]Can you explain what you mean?
Keep in mind during the crusades (RC's) people had to believe in the Pope, and the Roman Catholic teaching about the Pope and the RC Church. In this instance, if someone chose God (The Roman God) against their will, what good did it do them? Did they choose the real God?

Now, for obvious reasons, let me be more specific. Considering "God, Jesus Christ" No one ever chose Him against their will.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Can you explain what you mean?
Keep in mind during the crusades (RC's) people had to believe in the Pope, and the Roman Catholic teaching about the Pope and the RC Church. In this instance, if someone chose God (The Roman God) against their will, what good did it do them? Did they choose the real God?

Now, for obvious reasons, let me be more specific. Considering "God, Jesus Christ" No one ever chose Him against their will.

No matter how you try to phrase it, entire countries, cultures, and civilizations where wiped out, if they didn't admit Jesus Christ as their savior. You could try and say they didn't choose the right God, but that is stretching it to justify the actions rather then to acknowledge that sometimes things are abused by men seeking power. ;)

 

[Elf]

Can you explain what you mean?
Keep in mind during the crusades (RC's) people had to believe in the Pope, and the Roman Catholic teaching about the Pope and the RC Church. In this instance, if someone chose God (The Roman God) against their will, what good did it do them? Did they choose the real God?

Now, for obvious reasons, let me be more specific. Considering "God, Jesus Christ" No one ever chose Him against their will.

No matter how you try to phrase it, entire countries, cultures, and civilizations where wiped out, if they didn't admit Jesus Christ as their savior. You could try and say they didn't choose the right God, but that is stretching it to justify the actions rather then to acknowledge that sometimes things are abused by men seeking power. ;)

So, you believe if someone was told they had to believe in God or die, they genuinely chose Him? So the number of the saved increased by abusive men seeking power? They were forced into heaven, so to speak?

Interesting.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Can you explain what you mean?
Keep in mind during the crusades (RC's) people had to believe in the Pope, and the Roman Catholic teaching about the Pope and the RC Church. In this instance, if someone chose God (The Roman God) against their will, what good did it do them? Did they choose the real God?

Now, for obvious reasons, let me be more specific. Considering "God, Jesus Christ" No one ever chose Him against their will.

No matter how you try to phrase it, entire countries, cultures, and civilizations where wiped out, if they didn't admit Jesus Christ as their savior. You could try and say they didn't choose the right God, but that is stretching it to justify the actions rather then to acknowledge that sometimes things are abused by men seeking power. ;)

So, you believe if someone was told they had to believe in God or die, they genuinely chose Him? So the number of the saved increased by abusive men seeking power? They were forced into heaven, so to speak?

Interesting.

Whether or not they made it to heaven isn't the point. It has been shown that many people will do anything to keep on living. :yes

 

[francisdesales]

[quote="Dave Slayer":2gy4aj2a]How free is our will? Do men have free will to choose God? What is Biblical?

Well, no one ever chose God against their will.

I think someone forgot the Crusades, the Spanish inqusition, and the Colonization of the Americas and the Nordic Island nations. :ohwell[/quote:2gy4aj2a]

People will say anything when threatened with death. I wouldn't put any of the above as "choosing God against one's will". Choosing God is a free choice that involves a conversion to God and away from sin, not speaking with your lips a few words that might save your life.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

How free is our will if no man can come to Jesus, except the Father draw him ?

So if we choose with our "free will" that we want to come to Jesus and the Father does not draw us, can we still come to Jesus. Of course not.

 

[Elf]

So, you believe if someone was told they had to believe in God or die, they genuinely chose Him? So the number of the saved increased by abusive men seeking power? They were forced into heaven, so to speak?

Interesting.

Whether or not they made it to heaven isn't the point. It has been shown that many people will do anything to keep on living. :yes

Lol, this is leading off in a different direction.

 

[follower of Christ]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

How free is our will if no man can come to Jesus, except the Father draw him ?

So if we choose with our "free will" that we want to come to Jesus and the Father does not draw us, can we still come to Jesus. Of course not.

Its still free.

The issue is that Adams sin caused a separation between man and God.
Man has choice, but only within the parameters God has given him.
Until God draws, a man cannot choose to reconcile himself to God. God has to initiate it.
So man DOES still have free will to choose, but simply doesnt have that option available to him until the Father does draw him.
For whatever reason God has chosen to be the one who has to initiate reconciliation with man.

 

[Benoni]

Great point but until you can show this in God's Word man has a choice it is only your point not God's Word.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

How free is our will if no man can come to Jesus, except the Father draw him ?

So if we choose with our "free will" that we want to come to Jesus and the Father does not draw us, can we still come to Jesus. Of course not.

Its still free.

The issue is that Adams sin caused a separation between man and God.
Man has choice, but only within the parameters God has given him.
Until God draws, a man cannot choose to reconcile himself to God. God has to initiate it.
So man DOES still have free will to choose, but simply doesnt have that option available to him until the Father does draw him.
For whatever reason God has chosen to be the one who has to initiate reconciliation with man.

 

[mondar]

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

How free is our will if no man can come to Jesus, except the Father draw him ?

So if we choose with our "free will" that we want to come to Jesus and the Father does not draw us, can we still come to Jesus. Of course not.

Its still free.

The issue is that Adams sin caused a separation between man and God.
Man has choice, but only within the parameters God has given him.
Until God draws, a man cannot choose to reconcile himself to God. God has to initiate it.
So man DOES still have free will to choose, but simply doesnt have that option available to him until the Father does draw him.
For whatever reason God has chosen to be the one who has to initiate reconciliation with man.

Please tell me, out of those drawn by the Father, how many receive eternal life (will be raised up on the last day)?

 

[Benoni]

Narrow is the way that leads to Christ, the broad way is religion.

God is not calling all people NOW. The message that is missed is the message of God's Kings and Priest that will raised up for the remainder of mankind. What is David's tabernacle?

Acts 15:16-18

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

Notice the word saviors……

Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Just like Melchisedec or David’s Tabernacle which points to Jesus and later the Benjamin Company.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

How free is our will if no man can come to Jesus, except the Father draw him ?

So if we choose with our "free will" that we want to come to Jesus and the Father does not draw us, can we still come to Jesus. Of course not.

Its still free.

The issue is that Adams sin caused a separation between man and God.
Man has choice, but only within the parameters God has given him.
Until God draws, a man cannot choose to reconcile himself to God. God has to initiate it.
So man DOES still have free will to choose, but simply doesnt have that option available to him until the Father does draw him.
For whatever reason God has chosen to be the one who has to initiate reconciliation with man.

Please tell me, out of those drawn by the Father, how many receive eternal life (will be raised up on the last day)?

 

[follower of Christ]

It was just a matter of time...

Great point but until you can show this in God's Word man has a choice it is only your point not God's Word.

Instruction PRESUMES the ability to choose to obey or disobey.
Are you going to start this again here ? Maybe a moderator should watch this thread just in case.

Youre logic is the worst sort of illogical tripe imaginable.
Your ENTIRE doctrine rests on the most absurd arguments and conclusions Ive ever seen...even in the MDR arena...which is saying a lot.

So Genesis doesnt say 'Adam had free will to choose'....it isnt relevant in any way.

 

[follower of Christ]

Since we're apparently going to do this all over again with benoni, I suppose Id better present the evidence again.

 

[follower of Christ]

Mans choice to sin

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it? Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified,so that we no longer serve sin. For the one that died has been justified from sin.

But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God. So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.
Neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as one living from the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God. For your sin shall not lord it over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
And having been set free from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.
I speak as a man on account of the weakness of your flesh. For as you presented your members as slaves to uncleanness and to lawless act unto lawless act, so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free as to righteousness.

Therefore what fruit did you have then in the things over which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 6:1-23 LITV)

Mans limited free will
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that it is impossible that God forcibly 'controls' the actions of all men and women.

Supporting Evidence.
Here we see Jesus telling Peter that he would deny Him three times before the next morning came.

Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
(Mat 26:34 KJV)

G720
á¼€ÃÂνέομαι
arneomai
ar-neh'-om-ahee
Perhaps from G1 (as a negative particle) and the middle of G4483; to contradict, that is, disavow, reject, abnegate: - deny, refuse.

Now, some false doctrines teach that God 'controls' mans actions and that man has no free will of himself.
One internet source I recent came across said this

Forum poster: "And here is an example of God's will:
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

So in this persons mind GOD is the source of Peters denying Christ. Rather than simply understanding that God foreknew it would happen, this person and their doctrine basically say that Peter did it for lack of choice in the matter. Meaning that GOD had to be the one causing Peter to deny Christ, ie God 'denied' Himself THROUGH the man Peter.
Im certain few will agree to the obvious conclusion, that their doctrinal view states that, but the conclusion is clear enough.

But we see that scripture says that He CANNOT deny Himself.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
(2Ti 2:12-13 KJV)


G533
ἀÀαÃÂνέομαι
aparneomai
ap-ar-neh'-om-ahee
From G575 and G720; to deny utterly, that is, disown, abstain: - deny.

Notice that 'deny' in the second verse is from G720, the word used in the first verse cited, so these words are very much related in intent. They arent two entirely different concepts.

Christ is faithful. GOD is faithful. He CANNOT deny Himself....yet *IF* these false doctrines were true then we have a situation where GOD is directly 'denying' Himself THROUGH Peter *IF* GOD is controlling Peter in any way. This simply cannot be the case given that God CANNOT deny Himself.

God CANNOT go against His own nature and He cannot lie.

in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time itself,
(Tit 1:2 EMTV)

So it is against His nature to deny Himself, therefore He was not causing Peter to deny Him. He simply foreknew that it would occur.



The 'free will' offering
The 'free will' offering was mentioned a time or two in scripture, so I got to looking to see if this word was presented in any context other than an offering

H5071
נדב×â€
nedâbâh
BDB Definition:
1) voluntariness, free-will offering
1a) voluntariness
1b) freewill, voluntary, offering
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5068
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1299a

Oddly there are verses that contain it that show it relating to God....and some also to MAN outside of offerings..

Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:3 KJV)

"People shall be WILLING".
Same root word "nedâbâh" that is used for free will offerings in many other verses.
Apparently even OUTSIDE of offerings the word IS USED concerning man.
And what is interesting in the passage above is how the word is used and what the verse says.

A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
(Psalms 110:1-3 KJV)

Just as PAUL shows in Romans 6, we willingly SUBMIT ourselves....
His people WILLINGLY subject themselves to His rule. They dont have to be forced as some falsely preach here.

The word is also used here in reference to GOD whom we KNOW has free will....

I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
(Hosea 14:4 KJV)

In the SAME manner that GOD FREELY loves them MAN can FREELY be willing to subject himself to Gods rule...




DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

 

[Benoni]

You sure do post a lot of nothing that never addresses freewill just assumption. HOGWASH not one verse....

 

[follower of Christ]

You sure do post a lot of nothing that never addresses freewill just assumption. HOGWASH not one verse....

That you can even read the passages presented and say what you have in this post lets us see exactly how oblivious you really are, b.