How to defend the trinity!

[Alfred Persson]

How do you defend the trinity from the Bible alone?

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen. 1:26-27 NKJ)

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:23 NKJ)

Man is the "mirror" image of God.

God is One Substance in whom Three Divine Persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit Mt. 28:19; 1 Jn. 5:7) subsist.

Man is One Person subsisting in Three human substances (body, soul, spirit 1 Th. 5:23).

The odds are infinitesimal this correlation is coincidence.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, but why/how is that so?
THE FATHER's WILL
Col 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

For ALL the Father to be in Jesus, EVERYTHING, then Jesus is the Father made visible.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, Colossians 2:9.

 

[Alfred Persson]

For ALL the Father to be in Jesus, EVERYTHING, then Jesus is the Father made visible.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, Colossians 2:9.

Imprecise, you didn't quantify the Son is NOT the Father (as to Person)

Therefore, "all the fullness of Deity" = "all the substance that makes one God", but of course the Son is like the Father, impeccably righteous, good, Holy, etc., so if you see the Son you see the Father as He is Personally.

 

[Randy]

For ALL the Father to be in Jesus, EVERYTHING, then Jesus is the Father made visible.

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, Colossians 2:9.

But Jesus is the Son with the Father living in Him.
2 persons with Oneness as Jesus testified to.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[Randy]

What is hard to understand?

The Chief Executive, Head of Government, Diplomat, and Economic Manager are One.

This is the ONE President of America.

The one God exalted to His righthand is Jesus.
What is hard to understand? Two persons
Jesus on earth and in heaven states the one on the throne in heaven is His God and His Father.
The apostles noted this.
Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits a before his throne, 5and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

 

[Walpole]

By "error," do you mean wrong thinking?

By error I mean a deviation from the truth; something that is heterodox.

What do you mean by "defending the truth"?

Let's consider the proposition, P. Let's say that P is true—that P is truth. Can you give an example of what you would say it is to "defend the truth"—can you describe just what you'd be doing in "defending the truth" of P? What would you need to do to "defend the truth"?

By defending the truth I mean clearly articulating what conforms to reality, nature and revelation.

 

[Walpole]

?

My assertion is straight forward and direct.

 

[Cooper]

Imprecise, you didn't quantify the Son is NOT the Father (as to Person)

Therefore, "all the fullness of Deity" = "all the substance that makes one God", but of course the Son is like the Father, impeccably righteous, good, Holy, etc., so if you see the Son you see the Father as He is Personally.

I am glad you said that because it gives me the opportunity to explain further.

I gave an illustration when I said the President of America is: “Chief Executive, Head of Government, Chief Diplomat, and Economic Manager.”

It would be foolishness to say “the Chief Executive is not the Head of Government, the Head of Government is not the Chief Diplomat, the Chief Diplomat is not the Economic Manager, and the Economic Manager is not the Chief Executive,” because THEY ARE ONE PRESIDENT.

Likewise, "GOD, IS ONE.”

 

[jasonc]

Modalism is a heresy .the Trinity is three distinct persons who share the same nature .
The Father ,The Son,the Holy Ghost .
They are equal in nature but act in A role.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I am glad you said that because it gives me the opportunity to explain further.

I gave an illustration when I said the President of America is: “Chief Executive, Head of Government, Chief Diplomat, and Economic Manager.”

It would be foolishness to say “the Chief Executive is not the Head of Government, the Head of Government is not the Chief Diplomat, the Chief Diplomat is not the Economic Manager, and the Economic Manager is not the Chief Executive,” because THEY ARE ONE PRESIDENT.

Likewise, "GOD, IS ONE.”

That isn't analogous. You have one person who is given many titles. God is Three Persons in One God Essence. Father Son and Holy Spirit are different Persons, not titles or modes of God.

 

[stovebolts]

I have always been skeptical of this because it seems like a free pass to get your case in without any evidence.

I call it discernment. Any revelation from God always agrees with Scripture as a whole and not simply a single passage. What I have encountered is this “revelation”, which it may very well be can take preminanance over the original intent of the passage. In a master slave relationship, the Master always has the say and a slave can never overide the intent of the master. In other words, the slave is always subject to the master and the master always has the ability to correct the slave.

 

[Cooper]

That isn't analogous. You have one person who is given many titles. God is Three Persons in One God Essence. Father Son and Holy Spirit are different Persons, not titles or modes of God.

I have ONE God who has many titles and names.

 

[Consecrated Life]

You either believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ has always existed or has not .
If there never was a time when He did not exist then He can be nothing less than God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I have ONE God who has many titles and names.

That isn't scriptural. The Father is NOT the Son, and neither are they the Holy Spirit.

Modalism refuses to acknowledge Infinite God is beyond human intellectual capacity, exceeding finite human reason to conceive.

The truth there is One God in Three Persons in One God is revealed right away in Genesis, as one of the first things:

God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, God the Word:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. (Gen. 1:1-3 NKJ)

So God is Plural as to Persons, but One as to Essence:

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen. 1:26-27 NKJ)

Here is the first appearance of the Word Jesus Christ, Yahweh the Son:

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? (Gen. 3:8-9 KJV)

 

[Paul E. Michael]

One can provide experiential evidence or philosophical reasoning to defend the truth of a proposition.

But, again, I'm trying to find out just what it'd be to "defend" the truth of a proposition. I'm trying to find out exactly of what "defending" truth consists. Say the proposition, P, is true, and you've "defended" P: What have you effected in your "defending" of P? What change in affairs regarding P would you say you've brought about in your "defending" of P? You wouldn't say that P is now more true, as a result of your having "defended" it, than it was prior to that, would you?

Oh, also, by your word, "evidence," do you mean truth?

It seems that you're being intentionally insufferable.

No it doesn't. In fact, it doesn't seem that I'm insufferable, even unintentionally.

You're going on my ignore list.

When? You said that to me over two weeks ago. What must someone do in order for you to actually put them on your ignore list, rather than for you to merely say you're going to do so, without actually doing so? Must they seem insufferable?

 

[daninthelionsden]

JLB,

Those are not the words of the earliest MSS: "7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree" (1 Jn 5:7-8 ESV).

Oz

That reminds me of a story I read about how when the internet was being opened up to the general public, a group wanted to take a Biblical phrase and translate it around the world in all the different languages then finally translate it back to English to see what it said. The phrase started "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" and it came back as " The wine is good, but the meat is bad." A little forum humor....

 

[jaybo]

That reminds me of a story I read about how when the internet was being opened up to the general public, a group wanted to take a Biblical phrase and translate it around the world in all the different languages then finally translate it back to English to see what it said. The phrase started "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" and it came back as " The wine is good, but the meat is bad." A little forum humor....

Cute story, but not quite believable.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I like how when reading on a Jewish site, one was asked to describe God and he replied that God is greater than human words can describe and greater than the human mind can comprehend. After listening to different explanations of the nature of God, I believe all fall short, but that the Trinity is as close as human understanding can attempt.

 

[Cooper]

That isn't scriptural. The Father is NOT the Son, and neither are they the Holy Spirit.

Modalism refuses to acknowledge Infinite God is beyond human intellectual capacity, exceeding finite human reason to conceive.

The truth there is One God in Three Persons in One God is revealed right away in Genesis, as one of the first things:

God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, God the Word:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. (Gen. 1:1-3 NKJ)

So God is Plural as to Persons, but One as to Essence:

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen. 1:26-27 NKJ)

Here is the first appearance of the Word Jesus Christ, Yahweh the Son:

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? (Gen. 3:8-9 KJV)

When you get the definition of modalist correct maybe we will talk again. Until then.

 

[jaybo]

I like how when reading on a Jewish site, one was asked to describe God and he replied that God is greater than human words can describe and greater than the human mind can comprehend. After listening to different explanations of the nature of God, I believe all fall short, but that the Trinity is as close as human understanding can attempt.

I believe that we cannot understand God fully, but Jesus has given us the Holy Spirit to be our guide. Before I read the Bible, I pray for the Holy Spirit to guide my understanding, then try to empty my mind of all predetermined thoughts and ideas. I just let it "soak in".