According to the diagram Christ is NOT the Father and neither is Christ the Holy Spirit. That my friend is Modalism.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
How to defend the trinity!
- Thread starter Bible
- Start date
I worship ONE God in all His fulness. He IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The ALMIGHTY CREATOR GOD IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. GOD IS ONE.
To say God is not this, and not that, and not the other, is the divisive work of Satan.
Some who claim to be modalists believe that all three modes can be expressed at once. What does better fit you is the error of Oneness theology. What we can say with certainty is that you are not Trinitarian.
You seem to haven't actually studied either Modalism or Trinitarianism. Even a basic study shows that Trinitarianism cannot be equated with Modalism. You clearly don't understand that diagram. If you have questions about it, I will try and help clear it up for you.
The Father is not the Son because the Bible makes this distinction very clear. The Son is not the Holy Spirit because the Bible also makes this very clear. The Holy Spirit is not the Father because, again, the Bible makes this very clear. It also shows that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet, as the Bible makes abundantly clear, there is, has been, and ever will be, only one God.
No, it isn't Modalism. You haven't even understood the definition of Modalism you gave from CARM.
Of course. But the Father is not the Son, who is not the Holy Spirit, who is not the Father. All three are distinct.
Is that not what you're doing? Do you think we can believe God to be whomever or whatever we want and still have salvation? Is it the work of Satan to correct error?
I believe Cooper is Father, Son, and Spirit. One tripartite being.
1) You believe Cooper is a Father, but not a Son or Spirit.
2) You believe Cooper is a Son, but not a Father or Spirit.
3) You believe Cooper is Spirit, but not a Father or a Son.
Fair enough, you go your way, and I will go my way.
Indeed, you can be and perhaps are, a father, a son, an uncle, a brother, an engineer (or whatever), a neighbour, a UK citizen, etc. The problem is, all analogies regarding God break down at some point, and here is that point. Firstly, the criteria of your analogy, as I have just shown, are very subjective. You can be many more things at the same time. Secondly, from your arguments, we can then conclude that a father can be his own son and a son his own father--there is no distinction between the two. But the very idea is absurd.
As I have stated previously, the Bible continually keeps the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit distinct. Why do you think that is? Do you believe the Bible is God's revelation to man, including his revelation about himself? If God uses human terms by way of the analogy of Father and Son, would that not be to communicate something that we can understand, namely that since a father is never his own son nor a son his own father, that the Father is not the Son nor the Son the Father? If, as your position states, the Father is his own Son and the Son his own Father, then God's revelation to us about himself breaks down and says nothing intelligible to us.
No thank you!
Oneness doctrine is a rejection of the Trinity and is found in some branches of Pentecostalism. Oneness doctrine teaches that the one God reveals Himself in various forms: sometimes as the Father, sometimes as Jesus, and sometimes as the Holy Spirit. Oneness Pentecostalism, or Jesus-only teaching, is a modern recycling of the old Sabellianism and modalism of ages past. (Got Questions)
What the Bible says. There is more.
1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1Th_5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
2 Peter 1:1 . . our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
At every turn in the Bible, only one conclusion is possible, to make sense of all these statements, taken together as a whole: Jesus is the eternal, all-powerful, all-loving, self-existent Creator God.
Colossians 1:16 For by him Jesus were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son, he says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”(This is a remarkable passage, in which God the Father calls His Son “God.”
Colossians 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell,
Colossians 2:2-3 . . . Christ, [3] in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. He's omniscient all-knowing:
Colossians 2:9 For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,
Eph_4:32 and be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ has forgiven you.
Ephesians 1:22-23 the church, [23] which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all. cf. Col 3:11 He's omnipresent present everywhere:
God the Father stated, “To me, every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear” Is 45:23. The same exact description is also applied to Jesus Phil 2:10-11. Many attributes that are said to belong only to “God” are applied to Jesus in Scripture. God the Father said, “besides me, there is no saviour” Is 43:11; cf. 1 Tim 4:10. Yet Jesus is called the “saviour” of mankind in passages like Luke 2:11 and many others.
And yet:
Like so many others who reject the Trinity, you can't even see the contradiction in your position.
Taken as a whole, these passages do not support your position. Passages such as these are precisely why the doctrine of the Trinity was formed--the revelation of the deity of Christ, yet his distinctness from the Father. But you are simply sidestepping the logic of my argument that a father is never his own son nor a son his own father. The concept is utterly irrational, yet your position says it is the case.
Good bye.
Last edited:
Just like that? You didn't even address my arguments. Doesn't truth matter?
The plain truth is in the scriptures you deny.
God is One.
God is "all in all" in heaven and on earth.
The One omnipresent God cannot be divided.
God can do all things. He can appear in the image and likeness of man on earth while being present in the spirit, in heaven.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn (most important) of all creation; for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, (Col 1:15-19 NRSV)
The word 'NOT' in the diagram teaches modalism.
.
Last edited:
When the scripture you quote states all things were created through Jesus and for Jesus who is Paul referring to?
The Host of heaven declares in regard to the one on the throne in heaven. The Father.
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”
Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Jesus defined God in Him.
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
That's the Father creating through the Son just as it was the Father speaking to us by His Son.
Col 1:19 - from the will of another
for in Him it did please the fullness to dwell
the other Col 1:20 - the Father
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
The origin of all things and the architect of creation is the Father. The one who created all things through Jesus and for Jesus. The God in Jesus who spoke to us in these last days. He is also the one who so loved the world that He sent Jesus as in "His salvation" Jesus came to do "His will not his own" Jesus stated it was "His message" not His own.
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being
The firstborn of all creation is the beginning of the creation of the "Father" as Jesus is not the origin nor architect of the creation and the God in Him is the Fathers Deity.
Jesus always referred to His God and Father when He used the word God.
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
In regard to the trinity it states two distinct persons in regard to Father and Son who share the same essence. So that is only one God but two persons. Three when you add the Spirit of God. Both the Apostles creed and the Nicene creed show those persons of Father and Son. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Father.
Again, I suggest you study both Modalism and Trinitarianism. Straw men arguments get us nowhere.
Here are some of the reasons that Jesus cannot be the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, whether simultaneously existing as each or not.
1. The use of the relational terms of Father and Son is meant by God to reveal something about himself. However, if Father and Son are actually the same person, then God’s use of that relationship isn’t something we can understand and so communicates nothing to us, since a father can never be his own son nor a son his own father. The very idea is irrational.
2. Throughout the Bible, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are always mentioned distinctly. This becomes a pointless exercise if they are actually all the same person. It would have been much simpler to just refer to himself as God or Father.
3. God is love (1 John 4:8, 16). This is speaking of God’s very nature; a necessary attribute. Love, however, in its greatest expression, is an action or feeling towards another—“Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13). So, if God’s nature is love, and God is eternal, then there must be at least one other to whom that love was expressed for all eternity past. Therefore, there must have been at least two distinct, divine persons coexisting for eternity past in loving relationship.
4. Jesus intercedes for us (Rom 8:33-34; Heb 7:25). Interceding is mediating between two or more parties. Jesus, as the great, sinless high priest and sacrifice, truly human and truly God, is the one who intercedes for us. He is the God-man whom alone can and does mediate between God and man. This makes no sense if there is only one person; one does not intercede with oneself.
5. Jesus is our advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). Advocating is only done on behalf of one party to another. It does not make sense to say one advocates with oneself.
6. In John 14:16, Jesus said he “will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper.” Firstly, it doesn’t make sense to ask oneself to send another self. Secondly, “another” means one that is different or distinct from oneself. If they are all the same person, these distinctions are meaningless and don’t make sense. In John 14:26, the Father will send the Helper, the Holy Spirit in Jesus’s name. More than that, he would teach all things and bring to memory all the Jesus said to the disciples. Again, clear distinctions are made that make no sense and are meaningless if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all the same person.
7. In John 15:26-27, Jesus says he will send the Holy Spirit, who not only “proceeds from the Father” but will “bear witness about” Jesus. Bearing witness is something done by another person, just as verse 27 shows (see also Matt 18:16).
8. In John 16:7 Jesus said it is to the disciples’ advantage that he goes away, to the Father, so that the Helper comes, whom he will send. Then in verse 13, Jesus says the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, “will not speak on his own authority.” This raises the question: if Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, how is it that Spirit “will not speak on his own authority”? Jesus then says that “whatever he hears he will speak.” Again, to whom is the Holy Spirit listening if he is Jesus? Then, in verse 14, it is the Spirit that will glorify Jesus, “for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.” How does one take from oneself? None of these things makes rational sense. If Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, then why is this so needlessly complicated? Why didn’t Jesus just say he was returning to his position as Father and would also return in spirit form to help his followers?
These types of arguments could go on for quite some time yet, but that should more than suffice. The language used throughout the Bible, particularly in the NT, of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simply does not make sense if they are all one person and would needlessly complicate matters.
Your statement that "The firstborn of all creation is the beginning of the creation," contradicts your paraphrase of Scripture where the Father "created all things through Jesus." It also contradicts your quote of Scripture that it is Jesus "through whom all things came."
Jesus cannot be a creature, as your position states, and also be the one "through whom all things came." Those are mutually exclusive propositions.
John 1:1-3 agrees with Col 1:16-17 and 1 Cor 8:6 in speaking of the eternal Son, through whom all things were made. There is no contradiction there.
There is ONE GOD who created the heavens and the earth. He took upon himself the flesh of mankind for a spectacularly good reason. His work accomplished, he returned to heaven's glory.
Last edited:
From the will of another Col 1:19
Yes, there is only one God, nothing I have said goes against that. I stated previously that monotheism is one of the foundations of the doctrine of the Trinity. But there are three distinct, coequal, coeternal persons. That is what my post, which you so easily dismiss, shows.
This tells me nothing; I don’t understand what your point is.
Sure it does. That's another defining Jesus's being at some point in history before the world began.
Its God in Him. The Him is not the deity. The deity is in Him. So the Him is the image of the invisible God.
For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit
Jesus and I share a common belief.
The Father alone is the only true God.
How it was in the beginning
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.