How to defend the trinity!

[jerry63935]

Do you believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one?

they are one as in together but separate ministry

 

[jasonc]

Modalism is the idea God acts as three persons .
Oneness ,is similar but denies the deity of Jesus as Jesus didn't exist as God at all

 

[T. E. Smith]

But, again, I'm trying to find out just what it'd be to "defend" the truth of a proposition. I'm trying to find out exactly of what "defending" truth consists. Say the proposition, P, is true, and you've "defended" P: What have you effected in your "defending" of P? What change in affairs regarding P would you say you've brought about in your "defending" of P? You wouldn't say that P is now more true, as a result of your having "defended" it, than it was prior to that, would you?

Oh, also, by your word, "evidence," do you mean truth?


No it doesn't. In fact, it doesn't seem that I'm insufferable, even unintentionally.

When? You said that to me over two weeks ago. What must someone do in order for you to actually put them on your ignore list, rather than for you to merely say you're going to do so, without actually doing so? Must they seem insufferable?

I did put you on ignore, but took you off to discuss evolution in the other thread. I have put other people on ignore. The forum does also include a button to show ignored content.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

I did put you on ignore, but took you off to discuss evolution in the other thread. I have put other people on ignore. The forum does also include a button to show ignored content.

Ah, your resolve never ceases to amaze me. One of my favorite displays of it is when, at some point after you had kept insisting that a myth can be made of flesh and blood, you then told me that you did not mean that a myth can be made of flesh and blood.

 

[Cooper]

That isn't scriptural. The Father is NOT the Son, and neither are they the Holy Spirit.

Modalism refuses to acknowledge Infinite God is beyond human intellectual capacity, exceeding finite human reason to conceive.

The truth there is One God in Three Persons in One God is revealed right away in Genesis, as one of the first things:

God the Father, God the Holy Spirit, God the Word:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. (Gen. 1:1-3 NKJ)

So God is Plural as to Persons, but One as to Essence:

26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Gen. 1:26-27 NKJ)

Here is the first appearance of the Word Jesus Christ, Yahweh the Son:

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? (Gen. 3:8-9 KJV)

I am still waiting for your response, but not to worry, I will continue.

In your very first sentence, you write "The Father is NOT the Son, and neither are they the Holy Spirit." That my friend is modalism that states “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit DO NOT co-exist, they follow on one after the other.”

This is the failure of Trinitarianism that denies the all-embracing threefold nature of the One God in which the word 'NOT' is very prominent. This denies and divides the ever-present, contiguous nature of the Almighty from before the foundation of the earth.

To deny the eternal attributes of the One God is to my mind heresy.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I am still waiting for your response, but not to worry, I will continue.

In your very first sentence, you write "The Father is NOT the Son, and neither are they the Holy Spirit." That my friend is modalism that states “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit DO NOT co-exist, they follow on one after the other.”

This is the failure of Trinitarianism that denies the all-embracing threefold nature of the One God in which the word 'NOT' is very prominent. This denies and divides the ever-present, contiguous nature of the Almighty from before the foundation of the earth.

To deny the eternal attributes of the One God is to my mind heresy.

Incorrect, you fail elementary deduction. Here Father speaks from heaven, Son is baptized and the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus "like a dove", clearly they are different Persons:

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matt. 3:16-17 KJV)

 

[Cooper]

Incorrect, you fail elementary deduction. Here Father speaks from heaven, Son is baptized and the Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus "like a dove", clearly they are different Persons:

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. (Matt. 3:16-17 KJV)

You present two manifestations of the One God in heaven and on earth. Visible and invisible, but One God.

The Bible tells us Jesus is the Word of God, the Power of God and the Wisdom of God. (1Co 1:24 KJV) The use of the word NOT with regard to the One God is to deny the power, wisdom, and word of the Almighty.

Jesus Himself said of the Old Testament Scriptures, “These are they which testify of Me,” and after His resurrection” beginning at Moses and all the prophets he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning HIMSELF and said, All things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me“ (Luke 24. 27; and 44). Then he opened their understanding and revealed to them, that He was indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

To follow Constantine and say the ONE omnipresent God in heaven, on earth and in our hearts is NOT our heavenly Father, is NOT our Saviour, is NOT our Comforter, is a travesty of the highest order. Satan must love the Trinitarian diagram. Please replace the word 'NOT' with the word 'IS.'

 

[Alfred Persson]

You present two manifestations of the One God in heaven and on earth. Visible and invisible, but One God.

The Bible tells us Jesus is the Word of God, the Power of God and the Wisdom of God. (1Co 1:24 KJV) The use of the word NOT with regard to the One God is to deny the power, wisdom, and word of the Almighty.

Jesus Himself said of the Old Testament Scriptures, “These are they which testify of Me,” and after His resurrection” beginning at Moses and all the prophets he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning HIMSELF and said, All things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me“ (Luke 24. 27; and 44). Then he opened their understanding and revealed to them, that He was indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

To follow Constantine and say the ONE omnipresent God in heaven, on earth and in our hearts is NOT our heavenly Father, is NOT our Saviour, is NOT our Comforter, is a travesty of the highest order. Satan must love the Trinitarian diagram. Please replace the word 'NOT' with the word 'IS.'

Now you are guilty of abduction fail. If God wanted us to think of three manifestations of one, then something that is one but presents three sides would have appeared.

Perhaps a triangle would speak.

Instead, One God presents Himself in Three distinct Persons.

 

[Walpole]

You present two manifestations of the One God in heaven and on earth. Visible and invisible, but One God.

The Bible tells us Jesus is the Word of God, the Power of God and the Wisdom of God. (1Co 1:24 KJV) The use of the word NOT with regard to the One God is to deny the power, wisdom, and word of the Almighty.

Jesus Himself said of the Old Testament Scriptures, “These are they which testify of Me,” and after His resurrection” beginning at Moses and all the prophets he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning HIMSELF and said, All things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me“ (Luke 24. 27; and 44). Then he opened their understanding and revealed to them, that He was indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

To follow Constantine and say the ONE omnipresent God in heaven, on earth and in our hearts is NOT our heavenly Father, is NOT our Saviour, is NOT our Comforter, is a travesty of the highest order. Satan must love the Trinitarian diagram. Please replace the word 'NOT' with the word 'IS.'

FYI, Constantine was baptized by Eusebius of Nicomedia (an Arian). If Christianity had followed the will of Constantine, you would be an Arian (the original anti-Trinitarians).

 

[Cooper]

You present two manifestations of the One God in heaven and on earth. Visible and invisible, but One God.

The Bible tells us Jesus is the Word of God, the Power of God and the Wisdom of God. (1Co 1:24 KJV) The use of the word NOT with regard to the One God is to deny the power, wisdom, and word of the Almighty.

Jesus Himself said of the Old Testament Scriptures, “These are they which testify of Me,” and after His resurrection” beginning at Moses and all the prophets he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning HIMSELF and said, All things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms concerning Me“ (Luke 24. 27; and 44). Then he opened their understanding and revealed to them, that He was indeed the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

To follow Constantine and say the ONE omnipresent God in heaven, on earth and in our hearts is NOT our heavenly Father, is NOT our Saviour, is NOT our Comforter, is a travesty of the highest order. Satan must love the Trinitarian diagram. Please replace the word 'NOT' with the word 'IS.'

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19

For there are three that testify: 1 John 5:7

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. 2 Corinthians 13:14

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:4

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; Ephesians 4:4

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. 1 Peter 1:2

John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, Revelation 1:4

I hope and pray I never ever see the negative word 'not' applied to the Almighty.

 

[Cooper]

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19

For there are three that testify: 1 John 5:7

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. 2 Corinthians 13:14

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:4

There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; Ephesians 4:4

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. 1 Peter 1:2

John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, Revelation 1:4

I hope and pray I never ever see the word 'not' applied to the Almighty.

For your information it is a true saying that the ONE God is present with us in three persons.

If the word 'NOT' is inserted, then the Word of God is turned into a lie.

God is ONE omnipresent deity. God cannot be divided.

 

[Randy]

For your information it is a true saying that the ONE God is present with us in three persons.

If the word 'NOT' is inserted, then the Word of God is turned into a lie.

God is ONE omnipresent deity. God cannot be divided.

Yet Jesus is NOT the Father. That' true for anyone who can read the NT.


I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins.

The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The Father is living in Jesus as He testified and they are one as He testified. I'll go with Jesus's testimony.
His God and Father is NOT Jesus.

 

[jaybo]

Posted in error

 

[daninthelionsden]

Posted in error

Hate when I do that.

 

[Free]

For your information it is a true saying that the ONE God is present with us in three persons.

If the word 'NOT' is inserted, then the Word of God is turned into a lie.

God is ONE omnipresent deity. God cannot be divided.

That is all true and agrees with Trinitarianism. A quick glance shows that you have not given any verse which shows the doctrine of the Trinity to be false. The Bible, particularly the NT, of course, consistently shows that there is one being that is God, yet that being consists of three distinct, divine "persons" who are co-eternal and coequal. This is the inescapable conclusion when the entire biblical evidence is taken into account.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Very God, Of Very God, Jesus had no beginning.
That is a yes or a no ?
Yet He is different from the Father.
The inability to deal with the eternal nature of this Jesus who is the Christ is the foundation of Trinity ignorance.

 

[Cooper]

That is all true and agrees with Trinitarianism. A quick glance shows that you have not given any verse which shows the doctrine of the Trinity to be false. The Bible, particularly the NT, of course, consistently shows that there is one being that is God, yet that being consists of three distinct, divine "persons" who are co-eternal and coequal. This is the inescapable conclusion when the entire biblical evidence is taken into account.

I am not wanting to show the Trinity to be false, I believe in a triune God who is body, soul, and spirit the same as we are. We are not three persons either, perhaps it is more appropriate to speak about the Triune nature of the One God. We do not worship three gods. Furthermore, we are body, soul, and spirit, one person; the same as the One God is body, soul, and spirit while being ONE God.

I have always considered myself to be a Trinitarian, but it looks as though I am going to have to call myself a monotheist who believes the one God is our heavenly Father, whose Spirit is omnipresent, and the ONE God came among us in the Image of man. The triune nature of the One God.

Instead of speaking about three separate persons, I think that as Christians who worship the Lord Jesus Christ, it is more accurate to speak of the One God by saying, God IS spirit, God IS our heavenly Father, and God did come down from heaven.

Now consider the Trinitarian diagram. It says the Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father. Beg pardon, am I reading this right, tell me then, what or who is GOD, because according to that God is not anything.

If we get it right, and we say God is Spirit, He is our Heavenly Father, and God did come down from heavens glory in the IMAGE of man, then firstly we have the ONE God laid out before us, and what is so beautiful about this, is that people cannot deny the second person of the Triune God, because there is no first, second or third God, just the ONE omnipresent God who came among us. To deny one is to deny all because God cannot be divided, and that is what the Trinitarian diagram does with the negative word NOT. It divides God and God cannot be divided.

Another thing Trinitarianism does is to allow people to deny Christ while claiming to be Christians because they believe in the Father. What sort of logic is that? If there is no Son, there is no Father, and they have no Father God.

May God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit bless us one and all.

 

[Free]

I am not wanting to show the Trinity to be false, I believe in a triune God who is body, soul, and spirit the same as we are. We are not three persons either, perhaps it is more appropriate to speak about the Triune nature of the One God. We do not worship three gods. Furthermore, we are body, soul, and spirit, one person; the same as the One God is body, soul, and spirit while being ONE God.

I have always considered myself to be a Trinitarian, but it looks as though I am going to have to call myself a monotheist who believes the one God is our heavenly Father, whose Spirit is omnipresent, and the ONE God came among us in the Image of man. The triune nature of the One God.

Instead of speaking about three separate persons, I think that as Christians who worship the Lord Jesus Christ, it is more accurate to speak of the One God by saying, God IS spirit, God IS our heavenly Father, and God did come down from heaven.

What you believe is not Trinitarianism, it is Modalism, or Sabellianism. Both were condemned as heresy in the third century or so.

Now consider the Trinitarian diagram. It says the Father is NOT the Son, the Son is NOT the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father. Beg pardon, am I reading this right, tell me then, what or who is GOD, because according to that God is not anything.

If we get it right, and we say God is Spirit, He is our Heavenly Father, and God did come down from heavens glory in the IMAGE of man, then firstly we have the ONE God laid out before us, and what is so beautiful about this, is that people cannot deny the second person of the Triune God, because there is no first, second or third God, just the ONE omnipresent God who came among us. To deny one is to deny all because God cannot be divided, and that is what the Trinitarian diagram does with the negative word NOT. It divides God and God cannot be divided.

I think you need to study what Trinitarianism teaches. While there are some differing definitions, there are essentially three basic foundations of the Trinity: 1) Monotheism, 2) within the one Being that is God, there exists three distinct, divine persons, and 3) the three persons are coequal and co-eternal.

All three foundations are what the Bible reveals about the nature of God, and we must take it all into account. Hence why we have the doctrine of the Trinity and why it has long been the orthodox view.

Another thing Trinitarianism does is to allow people to deny Christ while claiming to be Christians because they believe in the Father. What sort of logic is that? If there is no Son, there is no Father, and they have no Father God.

This doesn't make sense. A Christian, by definition, is one who puts their faith and trust in Christ, and someone who denies Christ is, by definition, not a Christian. Trinitarianism does not allow people to deny Christ while claiming to be Christian anymore then Modalism.

 

[Edward]

I think the Trinity of God is well demonstrated in man.
We are Flesh Body/Soul/And spirit. And these three can be confusing if your're not sure who you are talking about.

According to the way that I understand these different aspects of man
Our spirit belongs to God and is our very breath (But he has his own consciousness!) The Holy Spirit Bears Witness with our spirit the mysteries of God and He leads us into all truth. I believe that our spirit can speak to us in our conscience. Our spirit is opposed to our flesh. He always knows what the right thing to do is because He is in direct connection with the Holy Spirit.

Our Soul, Which is where our mind/will/and emotions reside and is our carnal mind. We were born into sin, so our soul and carnal self has always benn opposed to the spirit and likes to listen to the flesh and do what it wants to do. .
The Flesh can get hungry, can get the munchies, can lust for sex, and many other things which greatly affect ones abilitiy to resist the flesh. How can you resist eating? Yet scripture says for us to fast. The house for our spirit while we are here is the Flesh body.

I *think* that, remember the story about we got two guys on our shoulders? A good guy and a bad guy? Both trying to tell you to do this/do that...? Well that's our spirit and our carnal mind talking to our soul.


Scripture says the life is in the Blood. Well our blood takes oxygen to every cell in our body. The spirit of Life.
But it also says that, As a man thinks in his heart, so is he...So what we choose to think about affects our heart and we become that man. The Bible is clear about this too, Don't think those things, take them captive to Christ (Put unclean thoughts out of your mind). and whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things...because that is who you will become then.

It makes me wonder just a little if we are creating our own souls by thinking and doing. cuz it's who we will become. God looks at the heart. Everyone He can recognize Himself in, gets saved. The others? I never knew you?

I *think*.

 

[Cooper]

What you believe is not Trinitarianism, it is Modalism, or Sabellianism. Both were condemned as heresy in the third century or so.


I think you need to study what Trinitarianism teaches. While there are some differing definitions, there are essentially three basic foundations of the Trinity: 1) Monotheism, 2) within the one Being that is God, there exists three distinct, divine persons, and 3) the three persons are coequal and co-eternal.

All three foundations are what the Bible reveals about the nature of God, and we must take it all into account. Hence why we have the doctrine of the Trinity and why it has long been the orthodox view.


This doesn't make sense. A Christian, by definition, is one who puts their faith and trust in Christ, and someone who denies Christ is, by definition, not a Christian. Trinitarianism does not allow people to deny Christ while claiming to be Christian anymore then Modalism.

Modalism says that God existed in the form of the Father in the OT, and is NOT the Son. The Son belongs to the New Testament and is NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit, and God exists in the mode of the Holy Spirit after Christ's ascension and is NOT the Father or the Son.
This view states that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time--only one after another. (CARM)

Trinitarians say the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. There is no difference. The infamous diagram is modalism more firmly stated, dressed up, and carved in stone.
.