yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
How to defend the trinity!
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Jesus's Father would be considered the King. Jesus is the Prince of Princes.
In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.
What your having difficulty with is the message of the doctrine of the trinity. Not the gospel message.
You ask me what I see.
I see the Father and His Son.
In the Fathers Son I read "all the fullness was pleased to dwell". All the fullness of God.
The Son is all that His Father is. (God in that context.)
The distinction made is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. No mention of the Spirit of God as a person worthy of that honor of power and glory and praise. Because I see the Spirit of my heavenly Father. The works Jesus performed was by that Spirit. The Fathers Spirit would have the Fathers nature. (God)
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Yes. God said it sorry.
So God prepared a body for Jesus...
It just means that God had planned from always that the 2nd Person of the Trinity would be born into humanity.
Have you never heard it said that God became a person so as to save us?
Only God can save us.
2 Timothy 1:9
according to the power of God...Who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,
I agree. The Apostles and writers of the NT wanted to write about Jesus, His ministry and His mission.
I don't think they could get into heresies too much even though they were already circulation.
In the letter of John, 1 John 2:19, he states that some left the church.
It was the gnostics - they had already infiltrated the church.
John was concerned about this.
In the early 90's when I was at Cambridge University I studied under a female professor and she was into trying to understand what the early Christians knew and what they were thinking. That transitional period in the 50's were you had the Jewish Christians facing off against the Gentile Christians. She was kind of a eye opener from a different perspective.
The Pagan converts...the Gentiles had an entirely different view of what the gods were like. Mount Olympus and all that and the very human like gods that lived on earth. So they were adjusting to what they were hearing about the Christian Gods. And of course it was all about hearing because there were no Bibles. And they where alienating themselves from their own culture and their families that were Pagan. (Pagan is a more modern term. Of course they considered themselves normal.) Back then from the Pagan perspective Christianity was considered the cult to protect your kids from. (And again the term cult is a more modern term that was coined in the early 17th century.)
They were taking in a lot of things. Paul was the leader of the Gentile Christians and he was a Jew, an educated Jew that came from a Hellenized family that had obtained Roman citizenship. And initially he was violently opposed to this “cult” Christian movement….until Christ converted him.
So from Paul and his constituents, the Gentiles were getting a very straight foreword concept of the Jewish / Christian God and His Son. None of this mumbo jumbo of non-biblical terms that fill the definitions of the Trinity that occurs in the Catholic definition of the Trinity and or the Protestant definitions of the Trinity. The words and concepts that are in these definitions are not in the actual scriptures. And some of the theological words that people use to describe these definitions that are not in the scriptures by word or concept. This is one of many reasons I am skeptical of these formulated theological words and phrases that are not in the scriptures. They try to sneak in beliefs that are not in the scriptures. What? What God said was not good enough? Are formulated theological words going to improve the Word of God? …. “Lets learn to what men say, because it is more important than what God said?” That is why false beliefs override scriptures.
Mostly of what was being explained to the early Christians was about God the Father and His Son the Lord Yeshua. The referencing of Yeshua as Lord was not to say He was not a God, but to make a distinction between them, as in the Father was unique in His position as God Almighty and the Creator God. There was no one in this period that was trying to blend them up in various ways. Christ explained the “oneness” concept in a very biblical way that went along with Paul’s explanation of the “body of Christ.” For example at the end of 2nd Corinthians it states…The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God. And the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you…. defines the 3 Gods of the Trinity. And then you have verses like….so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15:6
And these are only a couple of many. But when you say this to some that have the false belief of the Trinity running in their head….a lot of times it does not connect in their minds ...... it is like when you working with someone in a cult….you say something very clear….but the cult programming in their mind grabs it and jumbles it all around and throw it into the cult belief. That is why I say if the Apostles could have gave the scriptures the strength of the false beliefs it would make them more influential.
So this attempt to understand what was going on with the early Christians and what was going on in their minds adds a certain clarity to the evolution of Christian thinking. Paul’s epistles and letters represented one side of the communications that was going on between him and the various churches. And it could be considered a higher more complex understanding of Christianity. He got into the various elements of Salvation that are very interesting. Now how much of that did the early Christians understand? Hard to say.
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Do you worship the Lord Jesus Christ?
Is this against the 1st Commandment?
"I am the Lord They God, You shall have no other God before Me..."
Are you breaking the 1st Commandment?
The Holy Spirit is a Person because He has attributes like a person does.
- He’s referred to as a Person (John 6:63; 14:26; Rom. 8:11, 16, 26; 1 John 5:6).
- He speaks (2 Sam. 23:2; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 21:11; 28:25–26; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7–8; Rev. 2:7; 14:13; 22:17).
- He witnesses (John 15:26).
- He searches (1 Cor. 2:11).
- He can be grieved (Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30).
- He loves (Rom. 15:30).
- He has a mind (Rom. 8:27).
- He has intelligence (1 Cor. 2:10–11).
- He can be tested (Acts 5:9).
- He can be resisted (Acts 7:5).
- He has a will (1 Cor. 2:11; 12:7–11).
God's Son made the universe.
Right.
This refers back to John 1
1In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2He existed in the beginning with God.
3God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4The Word gave life to everything that was created,
You said this in your last paragraph: (highlighted by me)
He has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Who made the universe?
The Son whom you mention...
And the Word who John mentions created everything and John tells us He is God.
The Son and the Word are the same Person.
That Person is called God by John.
Should we trust John?
God made the creation through, by, and "for" His Son. God appointed His Son the heir of all things and God set Jesus above all except of course Himself. And Jesus calls Him His God and the only true God. All the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Jesus so He is all that the Father is "God" But it is the Father and His Son that is what I see.
Wasn't Jesus "found" worthy of worship? And God and the lamb worshipped by the host in heaven?
In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
Not quite the same reason as His Father and God
Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11“You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being.”
yet for me to. Father and His Son.
Paul didn't have to contend with the doctrine of the trinity.
Col 1:19 - the nature found in the Son -all the fullness of God
Do you think there is a difference with being that fullness/Deity vs having that fullness/Deity dwell "in" you by the will of another. "pleased" to dwell in Him?
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Colossions 1:19-20
“Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done. Luke 22:43
All this is by God the Father's will. God the Son does the will of God the Father, not Himself.
Yes Jesus stated He came to do the will of the one who sent Him. His God and Father
I am not sure what your point is.
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
The will of the Son is the same will of the Father.
Jesus shows His soul is exceedingly troubled. Jesus prays for the cup to pass from Himself, not His will but the Fathers will.
Jesus prays the second time, if the cup may not pass away from Him, unless He drinks it, the will of the Father is done.
The same record where the soul of Jesus is troubled, and what should Jesus say ? For the Father to save Him from this hour ? But for that cause Jesus came to that hour, and prays the Fathers name be glorified.
Matthew 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
This is a very telling part right now. This occurrence us even explained/preached about by Apostle Paul. ( who was called by the Lord Jesus Christ.)
We understand what Jesus not doing HIs own will means, because He does not glorify Himself. ( as the Rabbis and the children of Israel were accustomed to doing as seen in the Gospel)
The Son of God is the Word, He can only be what the word has testified about God, to be. Jesus for a while is in the days of His flesh, and glorifies the Father, who glorifies the Son by fulfilling the word of this day He was begotten. ( we no longer know the Son of God after the flesh). 2 Corinthians 5:16.)
Look how important this testimony is right now, it begins in Psalms 2, it is done in John 12, and told to be done again. ( the day the Lord is begotten from the dead. Revelation 1:5.) In the very same chapter of Psalms were Saul is also called Paul, (Acts 13:9), Apostle Paul reveals about Jesus being raised up again, ( this is what saves us from sins and not debate and disputes of men) of what was written in the second Psalm, of God declaring Jesus Christ is HIs Son, THIS DAY HE HAD BEGOTTEN HIM.
Apostle Paul continues in Hebrews 1, how the Son of God is far above any of the angels in glory, of the day He was begotten to the Father, and how then God is a Father to Him, and how THEN, He is a Son to the Father. ( you do SEE THIS TESTIMONY )
Now back on Hebrews 5, Jesus fulfils all that is written, ( so we believe in the Living Word) of that day He was the Fathers Son, that day He was begotten.
Jesus went through the suffering we heard of in the garden, to learn obedience by what He suffers, to see Him going through this testimony to be made perfect ( this day begotten, and that day to be a Son and the Father, to be a Father to Him.)
Here is the revealing part for you guys right now, ( not to be turned away from) Jesus Christ is the author of salvation.
Jesus Christ is Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
We see what that means, even against our ( mans) dull ears, here it is..
King of righteousness, King of Salem, which is, King of peace; without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
John 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Hebrews 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Everybody knows the forums are a great place for context, to be out of it. ( is it not why there are discussions, and an excuse for all these years for talk, instead of actions.)
The reason Jesus has just judgement is because we see the differences between Jesus Christ and the other teachers of Israel. Every teacher of Israel sought their own will, their own glory, the difference between them and the Messiah is that the Messiah is not come in His own name. ( He is the scriptures.)
Jesus speaks of the will of the Father, to not cast anybody out, and if somebody says they believe in the love of Jesus Christ, they understand the same will of the Son is the will of the Father. ( to love by laying HIs life down for us to believe in, and to not lose anyone through HIs LOVE.)
To know the Father is to know the Son, God is love, how can anyone nolt know that the love of God the Father is the love of God the Son.
The Word judges us in the last day, Jesus does not speak of Himself, but, He is the Word. ( who will judge us) and we know easily who does not know God, it is all who do not know the love of Jesus Christ. ( God died for us/Jesus Christ died for us.)
The name that is declared is Jesus Christ, that is Gods name declared for us to believe in and be saved, no other.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 8:15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Hmm, that's easily known?, interesting.
So if God died and Jesus died was the Holy Spirit the only one alive? Or did the Spirit die as well?
I like the verse in post 935#
1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.