How to defend the trinity!

[Free]

This just got way complicated.
We know the Bible doesn't lie.
For all of this to be true. we must conclude:
The Father is God.
Jesus is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
All are God because all have the power of life.
Only God has that power. So now we are done.
Oh you think this is over?
"Nothing is over until we decide it is!" (Anybody know what movie this is from?")
We have one more fact to deal with.

1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

There are at least 28 references in the Bible to there being one God. You can look them up. Let's conclude what we know, solely from Scripture.

There is only one God.
Jesus is/was a person, an individual, a man who died on the cross. (The Roman centurion made sure of it.)
Only God had the power to raise a person from the dead.
For this to be true;
The Father must be God.
Jesus must be God.
The Holy Spirit must be God.

And they must all somehow be themselves as individuals, but coequally fit into, and coequally be the One and Only God.

That is the heart of the matter. These are the revelations we must make sense of:

1. There was, is, and ever will be only one God.
2. The Father is truly God, the Son is truly God, the Holy Spirit is truly God.
3. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Spirit, nor is the Son the Holy Spirit.

That's it in a nutshell. It's why the doctrine of the Trinity is the best explanation.

 

[Grailhunter]

The truth about the Trinity is not that difficult.

The big issue is the imbedding of false beliefs in the minds of Christians and freeing their minds to the Truth. A task that my ministry is well suited for because my responsibility is to be sure I provide the Truth….the rest is up to God…..

You can review the formulas for the Trinity from the Catholics or the Protestants and both have words and concepts that are not biblical and the scriptures speak a hundred ways against these beliefs. And when it is all said and done it does not matter if they are Catholic or Protestant they sounds like something a witch on drugs would come up with. Abracadabra Hocus Pocus Alakazam! You have this klondike formula for the Trinity.

The fact of the matter is you have Yahweh, God the Father, Yeshua, God the Son, and the God Holy Spirit…..probably a 1st grader can count to 3. And very few Christians are going to say they are not Gods. And the three form a Godhead. All that is left is the discussion of what is this divine unity? But what it is not is three Gods put in a blender and someone hitting puree.

The Johnny Appleseed of Truth
Be good and do good

 

[Randy]

Hey All,
Here is an interesting thought. Does anyone other than God have the power to give life?
We would agree that only God has this ability, correct? Therefore only God has the power to raise a person from the dead. So here is a simple question. Who raised Jesus from the dead. God, right? Well given our agreement, this should be easy to prove.

Acts 2:23-24 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

So that's it. It was easy. God raised Jesus from the dead. But wait! What's this?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The father raised Jesus. OK , still easy. So the Father has that power. So the Father is God. So that's it. But wait! There's more!

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.

John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

What's this you say? We agreed that only God had the power to raise a person from the dead. How does Jesus as a man have God's power? Are you following me? This is not so easy.
Only God had the power to raise a person from the dead. That was our agreement.
Jesus says He can raise Himself from the dead.
So, by our agreement, Jesus is God.
The Father is God.
Jesus is God.
So now we are done.
Not so fast grasshopper. (Anybody get the old Kung Fu TV show reference.)
There's still more!

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

QUICKEN, quik'n.
1. Primarily, to make alive to vivify to revive or resuscitate, as from death or an inanimate state. Romans 4 .
(Also, of him is an identifier of "the Spirit" so we know this isn't some random spirit. This is the Spirit that dwells in us. This Holy Spirit will also raise us up from the dead. Don't get tripped up on "of him.")

John 14:16-17. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This last reference is just for clarity. There is only one Spirit, or Ghost that is Holy. This is the same as in Romans 8, that will dwell in us, and will raise us up "from the dead."

Now you are telling me that the Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost, whatever you choose to call Him, the one that Jesus asked the Father to send to live with me, and be in me, the one who teaches me all things, that Spirit, who raised Jesus from the dead, and will raise us from the dead as well, right? Is that what you are saying?

YOU ARE BLOWING MY MIND!!!!

Only God had the power to raise a person from the dead. That was our agreement.
So, by our agreement, the Holy Spirit is God.

This just got way complicated.
We know the Bible doesn't lie.
For all of this to be true. we must conclude:
The Father is God.
Jesus is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
All are God because all have the power of life.
Only God has that power. So now we are done.
Oh you think this is over?
"Nothing is over until we decide it is!" (Anybody know what movie this is from?")
We have one more fact to deal with.

1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

There are at least 28 references in the Bible to there being one God. You can look them up. Let's conclude what we know, solely from Scripture.

There is only one God.
Jesus is/was a person, an individual, a man who died on the cross. (The Roman centurion made sure of it.)
Only God had the power to raise a person from the dead.
For this to be true;
The Father must be God.
Jesus must be God.
The Holy Spirit must be God.

And they must all somehow be themselves as individuals, but coequally fit into, and coequally be the One and Only God.

Given the Scripture I have set before you, how do you recile who has the Godly ability to raise a person from the dead?

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

PS: I am also going to post this in Bible Study forum so others too scared to come can read and comment on it. I am looking for feedback. Thanks.

Why the need?
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

 

[GodsGrace]

The funny thing about the words heresy and heretics is that truly they are Catholic terms.
Meaning the Catholic Church originally coined and defined these terms.
And according to them all Protestants are heretics. But then now a days the Vatican has softened it position on this.
Now a days the term just means....I do not like your beliefs. LOL

Heresy just means that a belief is not in keeping with the accepted understanding of the religion.
Of couse, if you were a heretic in some epochs, it got you burned at the stake. How Christianly.

The CC does not believe that all Protestants are heretics.
Just to clarify.

So, yes, these days it means, The religion (in question) does not agree with your beliefs.

 

[Grailhunter]

Heresy just means that a belief is not in keeping with the accepted understanding of the religion.
Of couse, if you were a heretic in some epochs, it got you burned at the stake. How Christianly.

.....accepted understanding of the religion?....Theology does have a humorous side LOL Who is going to establish the accepted understanding of the religion. Should we ask the Pope? Because as far as the Catholics are concerned all Protestants are heritics. LOL If beliefs are defined by the majority…Christ and the Apostles would have been breaking that rule!

Just so you know, as it is now the term heresy really does not have a distinct meaning. It is used as a generic term for.... "I do not like your beliefs." With 30,000 Protestant denominations a Baptist can call a Methodist a hectic.

I am more concerned with Truth than labels.

 

[GodsGrace]

Would you believe I have had people say that to me before? LOL

Yes!
LOL

Yes they are wrong because I am smarter and better educated than they are. Bending to popular opition.....Not rocking the boat. It is very important when you need the acceptance of your peers.
On the other hand I was born without a fear bone....it has served me well.

What happened to your humility?
Too many Likes will do that to you!

In the biblical era the Christians were well out numbered, in number and power. If Christ and the Apostles went along with popuar opition, and didn't want to rock the boat, where would we be?


The history of the concepts of the Trinity
Christ showed in every action that there was a difference between Him and Yahweh.....God came up with the terms of their relationship....Father and Son, the “and” is a plus. And the Apostles usually made distinctions between the two, Yahweh as God and Yeshua as Lord. And actually Christ explained this concept that He and the Father are one and people will not accept what He said. And this is what I said about false beliefs....it is like rock solid mind control. It does not matter what the scriptures say they are going to cling to the false beliefs.

But when I left the CC way back when, I had to restudy everything by myself.
The Trinity was one of those teachings.
Who was this Jesus anyway?
If He's not God we die in our sin.
If He's the Son, then He's of the nature of God and He IS God.
The Apostles didn't even understand when He would tell them that He had to die...they certainly didn't understand the Trinity...but an understanding that fit DID have to come about.

The difference was while Jesus was on earth. When with God He has the same power.
If He doesn't what does that imply? The Orthodox Church split with the CC because of the differing belief about the Holy Spirit, so this must be an important topic.

I THINK I understand the Trinity pretty well -
but it's pretty difficult to explain anyway...

I know this...thank you God that our doctrine does not save us but our will to follow You.

The first of the early Church Fathers to be recorded using the word "Trinity" was Theophilus of Antioch writing in the late 2nd century but he did not explain his beliefs in detail.

Next was Tertullian and his beliefs in regard to the Trinity
Tertullian, was born around 150–160 AD. He defended his concepts of the Trinity and he explicitly "defined" the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and defended his theology against Praxeas, although he noted that the majority of the believers in his day found issue with his doctrine.

I think that was pretty darn early in Church time.
Other ECFs wrote about the "Trinity" but it didn't have a name yet.
I think I posted the following somewhere:


Christiansknow God and His Logos.
They also know what type of oneness theSon has with the Father and what type of communion the Father haswith the Son. Furthermore, they know what the Spirit is and what theunity is of these three; the Spirit, the Son and the Father.
Theyalso knew what their distinction is in unity.
Athenagoras 175ADc.


We acknowledge a God and a Son, His Logos, and a HolySpirit. These are united in essence - the Father, the Son, and theSpirit. Now, the Son is the intelligence, reason, and wisdom of theFather. And the Spirit is an emanation, as light fromfire.
Athenagoras 175AD c.

I have also largely demonstratedthat the Word, namely the Son, was always with the Father. Now, thatWisdom also, who is the Spirit, was present with Him before allcreation...
Irenaeus 180AD c.

It is protected by the powerof God the Father, and the blood of God the Son, and the dew of theHoly Spirit.
Clement of Alexandria 195AD c.

I believe even earlier but I can't look it up right now.
No matter...they always wondered. Even in the NT.

Against the common believers concerned with monotheism, Tertullian's beliefs gives little comfort because he argued that although the above process results in two more who could be called “Gods” it does not introduce two more Gods - not Gods in the sense that Yahweh is a God. His belief was that there is still, as there can only be, one ultimate source of all else, the Father.

Agreed.

From these words, one can deduce that Tertullian was an advocate of a hierarchical system in the Trinity, with the Father as the source and the Son and Holy Spirit as his emanations, being second and third. And he never expressed the “one person” concepts developed in the 4th century. In other words they did not call the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit God.

Three Persons.
One God.

Although early Christian theologians speculated in many ways on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one clearly and fully asserted the doctrine of the Trinity as being “one” until the 4th century with the Ecumenical Councils
Which makes it a Catholic doctrine and they did-do not have a good track record on their doctrines being true.....ergo the Protestant reform.

OOh. I wouldn't say that.
The CC always existed from the beginning.
All doctrines are "Catholic" doctrines.
We've kept all the important ones - the ones necessary to be called a Christian.
I mean, what gives us the right to be called Christian anyway!
Different thread...

Did the Council of Nicaea create the Trinity?
The Council of Nicaea, the first ecumenical debate held by the early Christian church, concludes with the establishment of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the formula being three “persons” being one God.

Agreed.
All the councils were to define the faith and to dismiss heresy.


I have to end here.
Enough to chew on!

 

[GodsGrace]

You are a person and you have your own mind, will and "spirit".

It's clear that revelation was given after Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God had risen that the nature found in the Son is all the fullness of God.
It's stated "in him the fullness was pleased to dwell" From the will of another.
Who is him? The firstborn of all creation, one who is before all things. A firstborn Son of the Father.


The understanding I have from above is that the Son who was, (His spirit), was in the body prepared for Him. As we read the Father was living in Him doing His work. And the Fathers works Jesus preformed testified to this truth as Jesus stated if you can't believe Him then believe in the works He preformed that the Father is in Him and they are one.

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

Talking about the Trinity is tough!

Are you saying above that there is ONE GOD, consisting of 3 PERSONS?
I'm also not sure what you mean by the body being prepared by Jesus....
Jesus was born to Mary.

 

[Grailhunter]

What happened to your humility?
Too many Likes will do that to you!

LOL This is actually significant for me. False modesty is a lie. It means you are lying to people rather than letting know who they are dealing with.

I THINK I understand the Trinity pretty well -
but it's pretty difficult to explain anyway...

I know this...thank you God that our doctrine does not save us but our will to follow You.

All I can say about that is, welcome to the proud crowd. LOL

I believe even earlier but I can't look it up right now.
No matter...they always wondered. Even in the NT.

I did address this in a previous post to you but I will copy part of it here.

Although early Christian theologians speculated in many ways on the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one clearly and fully asserted the doctrine of the Trinity as being “one” until the 4th century with the Ecumenical Councils of the Roman Catholic Church.

Many years ago we covered the early writings of Christians in college. For years the Trinity was a loose undefined concept, in word and or meaning. And we may have lost some of them.....but it only matters so much, because it is hard to know how many people knew he or they wrote it.....and how popular it was. More people may know now about those early writings than knew of them back then.

A lot of beliefs running around before and after the Ecumenical Councils. But it was the councils that put it in writing and made it official and more or less broadcasted it and enforced it.

Three Persons.
One God.

Emanations....lots of beliefs.

Later on....

 

[GodsGrace]

.....accepted understanding of the religion?....Theology does have a humorous side LOL Who is going to establish the accepted understanding of the religion. Should we ask the Pope? Because as far as the Catholics are concerned all Protestants are heritics. LOL If beliefs are defined by the majority…Christ and the Apostles would have been breaking that rule!

Speaking of the Christian faith, I'd have to say that the ECFs established what the Christian faith would be.
How could it be otherwise? They're the ones that were around back then.
There was no Pope back then till about maybe 600, however Peter was ONE OF THE POPES and he was looked up to.
But that's neither here nor there - the beliefs were established at councils, as you will know.

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1268 The baptized have become "living stones" to be "built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood." 74 By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light." 75 Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church." 81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn." 82

Just so you know, as it is now the term heresy really does not have a distinct meaning. It is used as a generic term for.... "I do not like your beliefs." With 30,000 Protestant denominations a Baptist can call a Methodist a hectic.

I haven't seen this done of forums. Have you?

I am more concerned with Truth than labels.

Sure. I think all of us here are.
But a label does help a person to know what the other person MIGHT believe.
If I tell you I'm reformed, you'll know, more or less, what I believe to be true.

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL This is actually significant for me. False modesty is a lie. It means you are lying to people rather than letting know who they are dealing with.

It shouldn't be false!
I feel like I have so much to learn...
I think we all do --- including YOU!
But hey, it's 12:04AM here.
Yes. 12:04.
We can now be digitally perfect in our time keeping!
Good night
Knight

 

[Randy]

The truth about the Trinity is not that difficult.

The big issue is the imbedding of false beliefs in the minds of Christians and freeing their minds to the Truth. A task that my ministry is well suited for because my responsibility is to be sure I provide the Truth….the rest is up to God…..

You can review the formulas for the Trinity from the Catholics or the Protestants and both have words and concepts that are not biblical and the scriptures speak a hundred ways against these beliefs. And when it is all said and done it does not matter if they are Catholic or Protestant they sounds like something a witch on drugs would come up with. Abracadabra Hocus Pocus Alakazam! You have this klondike formula for the Trinity.

The fact of the matter is you have Yahweh, God the Father, Yeshua, God the Son, and the God Holy Spirit…..probably a 1st grader can count to 3. And very few Christians are going to say they are not Gods. And the three form a Godhead. All that is left is the discussion of what is this divine unity? But what it is not is three Gods put in a blender and someone hitting puree.

The Johnny Appleseed of Truth
Be good and do good

Is Jesus God?
Yes, He is all that the Father is.

In that context Jesus is shown as God.
The word was God.
All the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Him.
Contrasting that Son with the angels of God in Hebrews 1. A name inherited that is far superior to the angels of God. That Son appointed heir of all things.

But God is singular
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son

And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
So no one is compelled to state Jesus Christ Is God but they will call Him Lord and and rightfully so as Jesus told His disciples that is who He is. In regard to the Father He stated My God and your God.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Repeated several times (I guess those who see a person such as God the Spirit rather than the Spirit of God think He keeps getting left out)
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
As it was in the beginning.
Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Now your told confess faith in the trinity or your not a Christian.

About that Singular God who sits on the throne in heaven. From Him by His will through, by and for His Son. A firstborn Son who He was pleased to have all the Fullness of God to dwell in and to reconcile all things to Himself through Jesus's blood shed on the cross.

Singular
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

 

[Randy]

Talking about the Trinity is tough!

Are you saying above that there is ONE GOD, consisting of 3 PERSONS?
I'm also not sure what you mean by the body being prepared by Jesus....
Jesus was born to Mary.

Hebrews 10:5
For this reason, when Christ was about to come into the world, he said to God: “You do not want sacrifices and offerings, but you have prepared a body for me.

 

[Grailhunter]

It shouldn't be false!
I feel like I have so much to learn...
I think we all do --- including YOU!
But hey, it's 12:04AM here.
Yes. 12:04.
We can now be digitally perfect in our time keeping!
Good night
Knight

Well thanks for staying up late for us.
Since learning is a hobby for me...some to learn and some to remember. LOL
And hope things are going well for you.
Sleep well

 

[Grailhunter]

Is Jesus God?
Yes, He is all that the Father is.

In that context Jesus is shown as God.
The word was God.
All the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Him.
Contrasting that Son with the angels of God in Hebrews 1. A name inherited that is far superior to the angels of God. That Son appointed heir of all things.

But God is singular
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son

And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
So no one is compelled to state Jesus Christ Is God but they will call Him Lord and and rightfully so as Jesus told His disciples that is who He is. In regard to the Father He stated My God and your God.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Repeated several times (I guess those who see a person such as God the Spirit rather than the Spirit of God think He keeps getting left out)
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
As it was in the beginning.
Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Now your told confess faith in the trinity or your not a Christian.

About that Singular God who sits on the throne in heaven. From Him by His will through, by and for His Son. A firstborn Son who He was pleased to have all the Fullness of God to dwell in and to reconcile all things to Himself through Jesus's blood shed on the cross.

Singular
“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”

There are a lot of variances to these beliefs.
Some of it has to do with the most finite words.
Enjoy.

 

[Grailhunter]

I haven't seen this done of forums. Have you?

Talking about calling other denominations heretics…. No, if so it is usually the Catholics.
But as far as saying someone else's beliefs are heretical. I see that a lot.
And since my ministry about debunking false beliefs I get it a lot.
Like I have said, if the Apostles could put the power of false beliefs in all the scriptures it would have been amazing! Because there are some of these people that know them way more than the actual scriptures and hold these false beliefs above anything else. So a lot of times I am striking a nerve even over the most obvious things.

 

[Randy]

There are a lot of variances to these beliefs.
Some of it has to do with the most finite words.
Enjoy.

One God -no variance

 

[Grailhunter]

One God -no variance

I understand that you believe that.

 

[Randy]

I understand that you believe that.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[Grailhunter]

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Yep the Apostles a lot of times showed a distinction between God the Father and God the Son.

 

[Randy]

Yep the Apostles a lot of times showed a distinction between God the Father and God the Son.

More than that as in "from whom all things came and for whom we live" vs "through whom all things came and through whom we live" and the distinction was made between the Father and His Son.

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.