How will the world explain the rapture?

[Sinthesis]

I think that modern Christians are in error in believing in a rapture. I politely suggest that many have missed the allusions to Old Testament texts that are present in such text as that famous Thessalonians text used to support the idea of a rapture. Knowing these allusions works against the concept of a rapture.

The writers of Scripture, including Paul, knew their Old Testament. And they know a good metaphor when they see one. I believe that the "rapture" concept only arose in the last 200 years or so. And while it is widely believed in North America, I think the idea of a rapture is not so widely embraced elsewhere.

I believe the most compelling arguments lead to the conclusion that there will be no rapture.

Well there is a 'rapture', but scripture doesn't support the current Christian/pop-culture concept that has co-opted the term.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Man of Sin is a specific dude who will be revealed and we need to look out for. Of course he will be 'antichrist' but he is much more than that.​

Doc.​

How are you going to look out for him?
Can you describe the king who precedes the vile king?

 

[savedbygrace57]

The world will not need to explain the rapture, because when it occurs, it will be the end of this age and time for The Judgment !

 

[watchman F]

only they rule!

it says that plainly. only those beheaded for christ will reign with him. the others are resurected after the millenial reign.

This is abslutely untrue all who overcome and endure until the end will riegn with christ, not just thiose martyred. We must interpret scripture with scripture my friend.

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

this includes those beheaded as mentioned in Revelation 20, but it also includes all who have kept Christ's words until the end through the ages.

Only the wicked are resurrected after the Millennium.

 

[watchman F]

I'm a pre tribber, What ever it is that the "whole" world will believe it must be something that is huge.. I mean the whole world will believe the lie. the only thing I can think of is "ufo" something mysterious that cannot be explained. diseases, wars, nukes etc. All man made things can be refuted, but aliens "demons" which I believe they are, now that cannot be explained..

the Pre trib Rapture yes... If we all leave at the end of the tribulation, then "who" repopulates the world??

The Jews who are converted at the return of Christ immediately after the rapture.

 

[watchman F]

Do you think Christians are "He that restrains" ?

The restrainer is an agent of God, might be an angel, might be the Holy Spirit. Whoever it is, it is not Christians.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It is not the church, and it can't be the holy Spirit. however it is possibly michael the arc angel

 

[watchman F]

Archangel Michael?


I'm also tired of people talking about THE antichrist. We've been over this plenty of times.

If your gonna look out for a guy then call him by his correct name. Man of Sin....Son of Perdition.

Abbreviate to SOP or MOS or whatever. Please.

I agree the restrainer is probablty Michael. But if people want to cal the man of the sin te AC, why not let them? It is all the same.

 

[Strangelove]

Very True, (1 John 2:18) but we can go to far the other way, as well? In 2 Thess. 2:4-12 we find one particular antichrist that had been [starting up] before AD 54 time of writing. And most are familiar with Dan. 2's Image & two legged rome. Who became both church & State. All these verses are full of Last day information!

--Elijah

You don't know who that is though Elijah because he has not been revelaed yet.

 

[Strangelove]

I agree the restrainer is probablty Michael. But if people want to cal the man of the sin te AC, why not let them? It is all the same.

Refer to post #38.

Not the same.

 

[Adstar]

Hello Doc

Sorry about taking so long. Must have forgot about this thread.

My Bible doesnt say THE antichrist.

2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that
antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists;
whereby we know that it is the last time.​

I was quoting the NKJV. But i note that even in the scripture you provide it first says antichrist as in singular before it says many antichrists. Just because it misses out the The does not change the meaning for me.

If they where originaly been warned that antichrists (plural) shall come then that verse would never have been needed to be delivered.

All i can see in that verse is that they had been told beforehand of a singular antichrist that was going to come. Now the verse does not tell them that what they had heard before was false. It simply goes on to say that the spirit of antichirst would be in many, that many antichrists would come. but still there is a particular antichrist that they had been told would come.

Antichrists are anyone that opposes Christ. There are millions in the world.​

Man of Sin is a specific dude who will be revealed and we need to look out for. Of course he will be 'antichrist' but he is much more than that.​

I just think it's better not to confuse the two.​

Doc.​

Well it does not confuse me. I guess some might get confused but again if people look into scriptures and seek wisdom from God then they will not be confused.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

Hello Doc

Sorry about taking so long. Must have forgot about this thread.



I was quoting the NKJV. But i note that even in the scripture you provide it first says antichrist as in singular before it says many antichrists. Just because it misses out the The does not change the meaning for me.

If they where originaly been warned that antichrists (plural) shall come then that verse would never have been needed to be delivered.

Well....when you have antichrist without the s its an adjective. When you have it with the s then its the people who this adjective applies to.

All i can see in that verse is that they had been told beforehand of a singular antichrist that was going to come. Now the verse does not tell them that what they had heard before was false. It simply goes on to say that the spirit of antichirst would be in many, that many antichrists would come. but still there is a particular antichrist that they had been told would come.

Lets look at 1 John 2:22:

2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is
antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

Is John saying that any who deny Jesus is the Christ is THE AntiChrist or is he using the word as an adjective? Whats your interpretation there Ad?​

 

[Bazz1040]

I don't know where I stand as far as the rapture yet....

But, how is ithe world going to explain the rapture and millions of disappearing people? They say there are 2.2 billion Christians or something right? I personally feel that from that number maybe 25% are true believers. (Many claim to be Christians, but if that number was true the fruit would prove it) Anyways, it's still a significant % of the world's population that goes missing. How could it possibly be explained??

If we were atheists who knew nothing of the rapture and it happened yesterday, what could the media possibly say to get us to believe? I know I'd want some pretty hard evidence and understanding. I'm not going to be one of those who thinks it was aliens...

Theories?

I am not going to address the part about how people are going to explain Christians disappearing, because it will not happen and is based on a misunderstanding of Matthew 34:40-41. But I will address a little of the misunderstanding of that verse.
People that believe in the rapture or vanishing of Christians before people eyes hang that belief basically on one scripture....Matthew 24:40-41 They either ignore or dismiss the verse that comes before or after that particular verse.

Here is Matthew 24 starting in verse 37 to verse 42. Notice that in the latter part of both verse 37 and 42 is talking about Jesus' second coming.

Matthew 24:37-42 (KJV)
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Here is another verse that mentions Jesus second coming

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ESV)
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

One with an unbiased mind will see that verse 17 is talking about the same things as verse 37 and 42 in Matthew 24.....the return of Jesus.

It will also be even plainer to see in verse 17 that Christians will not vanish, but ascend into the sky to meet Jesus in the air, whom is descending.

When we understand that one scripture must be understood in light of other scriptures in the Bible, we will not come up with our own false understanding. And I will add, do not believe everything the pastor says just because he is the pastor.....study the Bible for yourself and let the Holy Spirit guide you.

 

[Bazz1040]

kinda pointless to gather us and come right back to the earth to reign for a thousand yrs.

but my idea would be that a disease killed them and that the rest of the world would have to be quarentined in some of the larger area.

i dont think that we will be like jesus in that rising to heaven but rather die and leave the body.

I think the problem is that those who believe in the rapture do not believe or understand that we will live on the Earth, let alone know that we will be ruling.

 

[Bazz1040]

notice all the ufo craze lately..they will say a space ship took them away..

I do believe that those that will be part of the political system will believe that it is an extraterrestrial invasion.....Satan is trying to prepare the mind of some to believe this.

 

[Bazz1040]

The rapture will happen moments before the second coming of the Messah Jesus. No need to expain anything, When the last trumpet is sounded the truth of the matter will become clear to all.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

On what scripture is that based?

 

[Strangelove]

kinda pointless to gather us and come right back to the earth to reign for a thousand yrs.

The bible doesn't actually say Jesus is coming down to Earth to reign for 1000 years. He definately comes down when we have a NEW Earth though.

I do believe that those that will be part of the political system will believe that it is an extraterrestrial invasion.....Satan is trying to prepare the mind of some to believe this.

Agreed. Fake alien invasion will play a role somewhere along the line.

 

[Bazz1040]

The bible doesn't actually say Jesus is coming down to Earth to reign for 1000 years. He definately comes down when we have a NEW Earth though.

The Bible tells us that Jesus does come to the Earth before that, because we will be changed at His return and see Him as He is.

1 John 3:2 (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.



Jesus say He is sitting on His Father's throne, and Jesus is in Heaven. But He continues and say that those who overcome will sit on His throne.

Revelation 3:21 (Darby)
21 He that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne; as I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne.




The Bible also says that Jesus will rule on the throne of his father David, and David's throne was or is on the Earth.

Luke 1:32-33 (ASV)
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

 

[Strangelove]

The Bible tells us that Jesus does come to the Earth before that, because we will be changed at His return and see Him as He is.

1 John 3:2 (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I don't get why that means that Jesus has to set foot on terra firma?

Jesus say He is sitting on His Father's throne, and Jesus is in Heaven. But He continues and say that those who overcome will sit on His throne.

Revelation 3:21 (Darby)
21 He that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne; as I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne.

So it's us and Jesus AND the Father on Earth. The shared throne of Jesus and the Father, Surely this is a description of New Jerusalem on New Earth.

22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was
there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and
yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for
the healing of the nations.

22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the
Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:​

The Bible also says that Jesus will rule on the throne of his father David, and David's throne was or is on the Earth.

Luke 1:32-33 (ASV)
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Is there any reason why this isn't New Jerusalem too?

Doc.

 

[Bazz1040]

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I don't get why that means that Jesus has to set foot on terra firma?.

That would mean that Jesus just appear in the sky and return back to Heaven and leave His brothers and sisters as they started to ascend to meet Him.

So it's us and Jesus AND the Father on Earth. The shared throne of Jesus and the Father, Surely this is a description of New Jerusalem on New Earth.

22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.​

22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was
there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and
yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for
the healing of the nations.​

22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the​

Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:​

The Father comes to the Earth much later on......after the Great White Throne Judgment, which come after the Millennium. It is at that time Jesus turns the kingdom over to the Father.

Is there any reason why this isn't New Jerusalem too?

Doc.

The point that I was making is that it says the Messiah will inherit the throne of David and David throne was not in Heaven. As Jesus said, He was sitting on His Father's throne, and His Father's throne is not His throne. Jesus' throne will be on the Earth because that is where David throne was......it is this throne that Jesus and His brothers and sisters will sit on.

And then at the end of the White Throne Judgment, then God the Father will come and dwell with man.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (GW)
24 Then the end will come. Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father as he destroys every ruler, authority, and power.
25 Christ must rule until God has put every enemy under his control.
26 The last enemy he will destroy is death.

 

[Strangelove]

That would mean that Jesus just appear in the sky and return back to Heaven and leave His brothers and sisters as they started to ascend to meet Him.

You've lost me Bazzmeister. Jesus appears in the sky >>> we go up to meet Him >>> and are changed with Him in the sky ::::: while H'es still there. How do you have Him returning back to heaven? The sky IS heaven.

The Father comes to the Earth much later on......after the Great White Throne Judgment, which come after the Millennium. It is at that time Jesus turns the kingdom over to the Father.

Not entirely sure what your point is here but we know the great white throne is not on Earth:

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose
face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no
place for them.​

......coz when Jesus is sat on it, the Earth and heaven have fled away. Zip......right in front of him the Earth goes. So he's observing from above......in heaven.

The point that I was making is that it says the Messiah will inherit the throne of David and David throne was not in Heaven. As Jesus said, He was sitting on His Father's throne, and His Father's throne is not His throne. Jesus' throne will be on the Earth because that is where David throne was......it is this throne that Jesus and His brothers and sisters will sit on.

Hmmm....I get what you're sayin Bazz. You wanna take that literally. But...I mean....we know that it's not gonna be the actual throne itself that David used..lolz.....thats long gone....so maybe that's just meaning that Christ will be the King of Isreal like David was?? But the True Isreal of God? i.e. believers. A metaphorical, spiritual meaning to the throne buzziness? Possible?

And then at the end of the White Throne Judgment, then God the Father will come and dwell with man.

1 Corinthians 15:24-26 (GW)
24 Then the end will come. Christ will hand over the kingdom to God the Father as he destroys every ruler, authority, and power.
25 Christ must rule until God has put every enemy under his control.
26 The last enemy he will destroy is death.

Yeah and all that will be on the NEW Earth, which Jesus and the Father will 100% set foot on.

I still don't see Jesus touching down anytime before that bud. I see the entire Jesus extraveganza taking place in the sky.