How will the world explain the rapture?

[Bazz1040]

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You've lost me Bazzmeister. Jesus appears in the sky >>> we go up to meet Him >>> and are changed with Him in the sky ::::: while H'es still there.

No, that is not quite correct.....we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, the moment Jesus appear. One will not have the ability to meet Jesus in the air if they are not immediately changed while he or she is on the ground.

How do you have Him returning back to heaven? The sky IS heaven.

I assume (an error on my part here) that since you said that Jesus will not touch the ground, then you mean He will be going back to Heaven.

Not entirely sure what your point is here but we know the great white throne is not on Earth:

20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose
face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no
place for them.​

......coz when Jesus is sat on it, the Earth and heaven have fled away. Zip......right in front of him the Earth goes. So he's observing from above......in heaven..

The White Throne Judgment is separate from the return of Jesus......it is not the saints the White Throne Judgment is for.....it is for the rest of humanity, more than a thousand years later.....it comes after the Millennium…..by the time of the White Throne Judgment the saints would have already been glorified and was ruling with Jesus for over a thousand years.

And it does not mean that the Earth and heaven (sky) literally flee. The Earth will still be their because that is where those who are being judged will be standing. It means that at the time all those people will notice will be Jesus and His splendor.....Jesus will have their full attention.

Hmmm....I get what you're sayin Bazz. You wanna take that literally. But...I mean....we know that it's not gonna be the actual throne itself that David used..lolz.....thats long gone....so maybe that's just meaning that Christ will be the King of Isreal like David was?? But the True Isreal of God? i.e. believers. A metaphorical, spiritual meaning to the throne buzziness? Possible?

I did not mean that it was speaking of a literal throne......it simply means that Jesus is of the royal line of David, so therefore has that right to rule over Israel.

Yeah and all that will be on the NEW Earth, which Jesus and the Father will 100% set foot on.

I still don't see Jesus touching down anytime before that bud. I see the entire Jesus extraveganza taking place in the sky.

You are contradicting yourself here......if heaven (sky) along with the Earth has fled, how can it be happening in the sky? That's like saying the man fled the place of his crime right after he killed his victim, but stood there, over the dead body of his victim until the police came.

 

[Strangelove]

No, that is not quite correct.....we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, the moment Jesus appear. One will not have the ability to meet Jesus in the air if they are not immediately changed while he or she is on the ground.

Well....ok.....whether we are changed in the clouds or on the ground doesn't have any bearing on Jesus' location at that time. He only has to appear for it to happen.

I don't see how all this points to Jesus setting foot on Earth.

I assume (an error on my part here) that since you said that Jesus will not touch the ground, then you mean He will be going back to Heaven.

Oh ok.

The White Throne Judgment is separate from the return of Jesus......it is not the saints the White Throne Judgment is for.....it is for the rest of humanity, more than a thousand years later.....it comes after the Millennium…..by the time of the White Throne Judgment the saints would have already been glorified and was ruling with Jesus for over a thousand years.

And it does not mean that the Earth and heaven (sky) literally flee. The Earth will still be their because that is where those who are being judged will be standing. It means that at the time all those people will notice will be Jesus and His splendor.....Jesus will have their full attention.

So I'm a little confused with you're response here Bazz. Where exaclty do you see the location of the White Throne?

And...I'm not saying your wrong with that red bit...but....can you give me scripture that those who are being judged are actually standing on Earth. Thanks bud.

Your prolly right about all this...I'm a Bible novice, but I just dont see Jesus actually on Earth at the second advent until after the New Earth comes.

It's nice to talk to you about the Bible for a change Bazz coz I'm sure you have much you can show me.

I did not mean that it was speaking of a literal throne......it simply means that Jesus is of the royal line of David, so therefore has that right to rule over Israel.

Ok the rule will be over Isreal (Christians). So that doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be sitting on a chair on Earth though does it. You're just saying He will rule over his subjects. why can't all of this be happening above the Earth?

You are contradicting yourself here......if heaven (sky) along with the Earth has fled, how can it be happening in the sky? That's like saying the man fled the place of his crime right after he killed his victim, but stood there, over the dead body of his victim until the police came.

Ok I shouldn't have said 'sky' I shoulda said the area where the sky was.

Heaven ie. the firmament, is everything that fills the area between the ground on Earth...all the way up to the water above the firmament. So if you take out the firmament you are simply left with that area, which is filled with...um.....nothing. An empty sphere surrounded by a layer of water (crystals?).

Doc.

 

[Adstar]

Originally Posted by Adstar
The rapture will happen moments before the second coming of the Messah Jesus. No need to expain anything, When the last trumpet is sounded the truth of the matter will become clear to all.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

On what scripture is that based?

Ok i will post some scripture on the rapture and it's timing. I posted this on another forum and saved it. saves me a lot of wrighting.

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.[/I]

Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.

There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.

Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21

It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"

Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:


1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:


51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:


53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.

So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.

So now we go on to the next scripture this is the last trumpet revealed in the book of Revelation:


Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:


Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[watchman F]

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Well....ok.....whether we are changed in the clouds or on the ground doesn't have any bearing on Jesus' location at that time. He only has to appear for it to happen.

I don't see how all this points to Jesus setting foot on Earth.

We are changed on Earth meet jesus in the air as He is returning to Earth, and we return with Him. At this point His feet do indeed touch the ground.

 

[watchman F]

Ok i will post some scripture on the rapture and it's timing. I posted this on another forum and saved it. saves me a lot of wrighting.

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.[/I]

Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.

There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.

Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21

It is also nice to note that Jesus revealed that this will be a world wide event because at the time of His return it will be day on one half of the world "In that day" and it will be night on the other half of the world "in that night"

Also this will be an event that will take place in a twinkling of an eye Paul reveals the rapture and its timing at the Last trumpet this scripture is probably the best rapture supporting scripture in the bible:


1 Corrinthians15:
49And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

Here Paul is saying that as we inhabit earthly bodies derived from dust so shall we inhabit new bodies changed and not made of dust. Paul goes on to explain why:


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

So the bodies that we inhabit cannot enter the Kingdom of God and also "corruption" dead bodies must also be changed also. Then Paul reveals a mystery:


51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So Paul is saying that "we shall not all sleep" now I hope everyone can agree that he is talking about physical death here? Paul is saying not everyone will experience physical death. He goes on to say that "we shall all be changed" both the dead and the living "in a moment", now at this point it could be argued that both the dead and the living could be changed in a moment in time, but at different times. That is to say the moment is only referring to the time it takes to change, not at the same moment. But we read on and Paul states the moment will be. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." So not only shall both the living and the dead be changed to inherit the Kingdom of God But they will both change at the same moment, at the last trumpet. As He goes on to say "For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Paul goes on to explain it in more detail:


53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.

So here again we see Paul referring to the two states of being that the saints will be in at the time of the 1st Resurrection/Rapture "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality," Dead saints and living saints caught up together in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

So from what we have read the first resurrection and the rapture (although different experiences for them that take part) will happen at the same instant in time at the last trumpet.

So now we go on to the next scripture this is the last trumpet revealed in the book of Revelation:


Revelation10
7but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Now the sounding of the seventh Angel is the last of a series of seven trumpets in revelation. Note that the scripture says the "Mystery of God would be finished" now the coming of the Messiah has been described by scripture at a coming in the sky (a darkened sky) and all people will see Him. Now after this event there will be on ifs or buts about the Mystery of God because all will see that God is and who He is. Everyone will know from that moment on, there will be no Mystery left. As for the darkening of the sky this is described as happening beforehand on the sounding of the forth trumpet:


Revelation 8
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Excellent job Adstar.

 

[Bazz1040]

Ok i will post some scripture on the rapture and it's timing. I posted this on another forum and saved it. saves me a lot of wrighting.

The Day of the Lord is the Day of the Messiah's Second Coming Jesus describes what will happen on that day. I will bold the words i wish you to take close note of.[/I]

Matthew 24
27For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So After the tribulation Jesus will return and gather the elect to Him.

There is another Rapture verse spoken of by Jesus that links the Day of the Lord to the Rapture.

Luke 17
29but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31" In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."

When will the Son of Man (Messiah Jesus) be revealed? At His second coming the Day of the Lord. Who will take the sleeping man and the woman grinding and the man working in the field? The angels sent out in Matthew 24 verse 21

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Not one of those verses says anything about Christians disappearing. The Bible tells us that when Jesus returns all will see Him.
Revelation 1:7 (BBE)
7 See, he comes with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those by whom he was wounded; and all the tribes of the earth will be sorrowing because of him. Yes, so be it.

The saints will ascend into the sky.......that too will be visible for all to see.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ASV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If a man was wanted for a crime he committed and the cops came to his house and took him away, did he vanish? No! Anyone outside or in his house would be able to see the cops have him in hand cuff, put him in their car and drive away with him. The word Taken does not mean to vanish.....it simply means to be taken. We should not put our own meaning words, when the word itself already has its own meaning.

 

[watchman F]

Not one of those verses says anything about Christians disappearing. The Bible tells us that when Jesus returns all will see Him.
Revelation 1:7 (BBE)
7 See, he comes with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those by whom he was wounded; and all the tribes of the earth will be sorrowing because of him. Yes, so be it.

The saints will ascend into the sky.......that too will be visible for all to see.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ASV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If a man was wanted for a crime he committed and the cops came to his house and took him away, did he vanish? No! Anyone outside or in his house would be able to see the cops have him in hand cuff, put him in their car and drive away with him. The word Taken does not mean to vanish.....it simply means to be taken. We should not put our own meaning words, when the word itself already has its own meaning.

Seems like you are arguing semantics, rather than substance. Say we do not vanish but are caught up as if the rapture means we vanish. Actually raptre comes from a latin word than means caught up. So even with your word game your wrong. The rapture occurs immediately after the tribulation.

 

[Bazz1040]

So I'm a little confused with you're response here Bazz. Where exaclty do you see the location of the White Throne?

And...I'm not saying your wrong with that red bit...but....can you give me scripture that those who are being judged are actually standing on Earth. Thanks bud.

Your prolly right about all this...I'm a Bible novice, but I just dont see Jesus actually on Earth at the second advent until after the New Earth comes.

It's nice to talk to you about the Bible for a change Bazz coz I'm sure you have much you can show me.

The White Throne Judgment will take place on the Earth because that is where the people or Nation will be.

Matthew 25:31-32 (ASV)
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;

First thing though, notice that Jesus said that when He sits on His throne, the twelve disciples would also be sitting on their throne as well. And we know for a fact that the twelve disciples are dead and buried, yet Jesus is alive in Heaven. He is in Heaven ruling in His Father's stead......the throne that He is sitting on is not His, but His Father's. If Jesus was sitting on His throne then the disciples would also be alive and sitting each on their own throne. And we also know that none of the righteous will get their reward before Jesus returns or before those that are alive.....we will all receive it together.

Matthew 19:28 (KJV)
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The saints will rule on the Earth.....in other words, they will be ruling with Jesus on His throne.

Revelation 5:9-10 (ESV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."


Revelation 3:21 (ESV)
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.




A prophecy of Jesus' return

Zechariah 14:1-4 (Darby)
1 Behold, the day cometh for Jehovah, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 And I will assemble all the nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity; and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 And Jehovah will go forth and fight with those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem toward the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,—a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Nations or representatives of Nations will go up to Jerusalem to worship the Jesus.

Zechariah 14:16-21 (Darby)
16 And it shall come to pass, that all that are left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso goeth not up of the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither [shall it be] upon them; [there] shall be the plague, wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, holiness unto jehovah; and the pots in Jehovah's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto Jehovah of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein. And in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts.

Ok the rule will be over Isreal (Christians). So that doesn't necessarily mean that he has to be sitting on a chair on Earth though does it. You're just saying He will rule over his subjects. why can't all of this be happening above the Earth?.

The scriptures are very clear that Jesus, David and the twelve disciples will be ruling over the house of Israel. This is not talking about Christians but the descendants of Jacob. So do not confuse the Nation of Israel with Christians.

Ok I shouldn't have said 'sky' I shoulda said the area where the sky was.

Heaven ie. the firmament, is everything that fills the area between the ground on Earth...all the way up to the water above the firmament. So if you take out the firmament you are simply left with that area, which is filled with...um.....nothing. An empty sphere surrounded by a layer of water (crystals?).

Doc.

If you do that it would still be heaven. The world heaven just means an expanse......space. So if you take the Earth and the firmament/space away you would still have space. The Bible speaks of three heavens. The sky, where the clouds, birds, planes fly. Outer space or where the planets, sun, the stars and galaxy are. And the Heaven of heavens, where God rules over all things from. So what you are saying does not make sense, let alone Biblical.

 

[Bazz1040]

Seems like you are arguing semantics, rather than substance. Say we do not vanish but are caught up as if the rapture means we vanish. Actually raptre comes from a latin word than means caught up. So even with your word game your wrong. The rapture occurs immediately after the tribulation.

But, how is ithe world going to explain the rapture and millions of disappearing people?

The topic was about Christians disappearing (as it says above) and how people would explain it, and all I did was showed you what the scriptures say.......that everything concerning Jesus' return and Christians will be visible......no one will disappear.......they will ascend to meet Jesus in the sky.

 

[Strangelove]

We are changed on Earth meet jesus in the air as He is returning to Earth, and we return with Him. At this point His feet do indeed touch the ground.

Ok but where does scripture say He will touch down on Earth? I only see Jesus in the sky at the second advent until after New Earth comes.

The only bit of Rev that hints at it is this:

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with
him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name
written in their foreheads.

And that can't be literal Mount Sion cos He's back up in the air in chapter 19 coming down from heaven (but never landing on Earth) with His armies on white horses and smiting the nations.

The Lamb stood on Sion with the 144k seems to be simply a vision that John is given in heaven. Or it just has metaphorical significance.

Doc.​

 

[Strangelove]

The White Throne Judgment will take place on the Earth because that is where the people or Nation will be.

Matthew 25:31-32 (ASV)
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; [/QUOTE]

Yeah but it says that the Nations will be GATHERED. which means they are gonna be moved from where they usually are and taken to a single place.

Any time any throne is mentioned in Revelation together witha location then it's always in heaven. Not on Earth.

So I still see all this going off in heaven bud.

A prophecy of Jesus' return

Zechariah 14:1-4 (Darby)
1 Behold, the day cometh for Jehovah, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 And I will assemble all the nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity; and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 And Jehovah will go forth and fight with those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem toward the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,—a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Nations or representatives of Nations will go up to Jerusalem to worship the Jesus.

Zechariah 14:16-21 (Darby)
16 And it shall come to pass, that all that are left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso goeth not up of the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither [shall it be] upon them; [there] shall be the plague, wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, holiness unto jehovah; and the pots in Jehovah's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto Jehovah of hosts; and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein. And in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts.

I see no reason why Zechariah cant be a prophecy of the 1st advent of Christ. Can you?

The scriptures are very clear that Jesus, David and the twelve disciples will be ruling over the house of Israel. This is not talking about Christians but the descendants of Jacob. So do not confuse the Nation of Israel with Christians.

Hang on mate....this is all starting to sound a little dispensational now. Jacob (Abrahams seed) is Isreal and the believers in Christ are counted as the seed. Are you dual covenant Bazz?

If you do that it would still be heaven. The world heaven just means an expanse......space. So if you take the Earth and the firmament/space away you would still have space. The Bible speaks of three heavens. The sky, where the clouds, birds, planes fly. Outer space or where the planets, sun, the stars and galaxy are. And the Heaven of heavens, where God rules over all things from. So what you are saying does not make sense, let alone Biblical.

Huh? That's what I'm saying if you take heaven away you still have space and Jesus and His throne and the Judgement and wotnot can still occur in that space.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Alabaster]

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Matthew 25:31-32 (ASV)
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;

Yeah but it says that the Nations will be GATHERED. which means they are gonna be moved from where they usually are and taken to a single place.

Any time any throne is mentioned in Revelation together witha location then it's always in heaven. Not on Earth.

So I still see all this going off in heaven bud.

Revelation 20:11-15
The Final Judgment

11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.


No judgment should be taking place in heaven, for this involves the judgment of the wicked. No wickedness is allowed entry into heaven. According to this passage, earth and sky will have fled, and Judgment will be taking place in a heavenly place, but not HEAVEN ITSELF.

THEN the next words in scripture are:

The New Jerusalem

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them.

 

[Strangelove]

No judgment should be taking place in heaven, for this involves the judgment of the wicked. No wickedness is allowed entry into heaven. According to this passage, earth and sky will have fled, and Judgment will be taking place in a heavenly place, but not HEAVEN ITSELF.

What does heaven mean to you? To me it means the firmament. So when the firmament has fled away you are left with the area above the Earth where the firmament was.

The Kingdom of God is not a place in the firmament where we live forever with God and fluffy white clouds and angels with harps. The Kingdom of God is New Jerusalem on the New Earth.

So if God wants to judge the wicked up above the Earth in the area where the firmament has fled away from, then He can do.

 

[Bazz1040]

Matthew 25:31-32 (ASV)
31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:
32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;

Yeah but it says that the Nations will be GATHERED. which means they are gonna be moved from where they usually are and taken to a single place.



Any time any throne is mentioned in Revelation together witha location then it's always in heaven. Not on Earth.

So I still see all this going off in heaven bud.

Where do you see it say in the Bible that the unrepentant will be judged in Heaven? And also are ignoring the last part of verse 31. It says the throne of His glory. Remember that Jesus said that He was sitting on His Father's throne. So if Heaven is His Father's throne that cannot be where He will judge the unrepentant because that is not the throne of His glory. The throne of His glory will be on the Earth, because that is where the saint will sit with Him.

I see no reason why Zechariah cant be a prophecy of the 1st advent of Christ. Can you?

Then show me in the New Testament where it says that that event took place when Jesus walked the Earth? An event like that would be recorded in the Bible.....maybe even in the history books.

Hang on mate....this is all starting to sound a little dispensational now. Jacob (Abrahams seed) is Isreal and the believers in Christ are counted as the seed. Are you dual covenant Bazz?

This part here would take too much time to get into so I am going leave this as it is.

Huh? That's what I'm saying if you take heaven away you still have space and Jesus and His throne and the Judgement and wotnot can still occur in that space.

Interesting discussion.

But I thought you said it was going to be in Heaven.........they the people were going to be moved to Heaven and be judged there? So what really is it, are they going to be taken to Heaven and be judged, or be judged in space?

 

[Adstar]

Not one of those verses says anything about Christians disappearing.

Ok bazz could you please quote where i said we would be disappearing? I take exception to other people putting words in my mouth.

The Bible tells us that when Jesus returns all will see Him.

Once again please quote where i said all would not see Him??

Revelation 1:7 (BBE)
7 See, he comes with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those by whom he was wounded; and all the tribes of the earth will be sorrowing because of him. Yes, so be it.

The saints will ascend into the sky.......that too will be visible for all to see.

Have i ever disputed that?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (ASV)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If a man was wanted for a crime he committed and the cops came to his house and took him away, did he vanish? No! Anyone outside or in his house would be able to see the cops have him in hand cuff, put him in their car and drive away with him. The word Taken does not mean to vanish.....it simply means to be taken. We should not put our own meaning words, when the word itself already has its own meaning.

Once again, where did i say people are going to vanish?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Zechariah 14:1-4 (Darby)
1 Behold, the day cometh for Jehovah, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 And I will assemble all the nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity; and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 And Jehovah will go forth and fight with those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem toward the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,—a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This scripture cannot be about Jesus first advent. The mountain of Olives did not split in half moving half the mountain to the north and the other half to the South. This great earthquake can be linked to the great earthquake mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Great enough to split the mountain of olives in half and create a great valley.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

Where do you see it say in the Bible that the unrepentant will be judged in Heaven? And also are ignoring the last part of verse 31. It says the throne of His glory. Remember that Jesus said that He was sitting on His Father's throne. So if Heaven is His Father's throne that cannot be where He will judge the unrepentant because that is not the throne of His glory. The throne of His glory will be on the Earth, because that is where the saint will sit with Him.

Lolz...I'm just saying Bazz that there is never any mention of Jesus being on Earth and never any mention of any throne being on Earth. Therefore we can't assume that Jesus is touching down on Earth while all this is going until after the New Earth comes where scripture clearly tells us that Jesus and the Father come down to dwell with us.

We clearly see Jesus in the sky all the way through Rev until New Earth. Thats the impression that I got when I first read it and it always puzzles me when I see people talk about Jesus reigning on Earth during the millenium. (which I don't think is a literal thousand years.) Lol.....thats gonna wig your head out even further innit Bazzmeister?

Then show me in the New Testament where it says that that event took place when Jesus walked the Earth? An event like that would be recorded in the Bible.....maybe even in the history books.

It's a prophecy bud. Therefore it can be highly metaphorical. I see the cleaving of the mountain as basically meaning the splitting of um....what do mountains sometimes symbolise in the Bible??? I forget at this minute but it's either peoples or nations or whatever,,,,but either way at the time of the crucifixtion the Jews in Jerusalem at the time needed to make a decision and which side of the valley they were going to be on. The Christ believing side or the side of the old law. So they were split.

Thats what I see as the meaning of Zech 14. It can fit to the first advent.

This part here would take too much time to get into so I am going leave this as it is.

H'okey doke.

But I thought you said it was going to be in Heaven.........they the people were going to be moved to Heaven and be judged there? So what really is it, are they going to be taken to Heaven and be judged, or be judged in space?

Um....I'll go for space. The heaven and Earth have passed away and we're in space with Jesus at his throne in a weird murky vacuum of nothingness. I guess the bible might designate it as heaven but just meaning not on Earth.

I'll say not on Earth. Lolz.

 

[watchman F]

Lolz...I'm just saying Bazz that there is never any mention of Jesus being on Earth and never any mention of any throne being on Earth. Therefore we can't assume that Jesus is touching down on Earth while all this is going until after the New Earth comes where scripture clearly tells us that Jesus and the Father come down to dwell with us.

Strangelove scripture does tell us that Jesus returns immediately after the tribultion, and that He will reign from Earth for 1000 years. Then the Great white throne Judgment, and then eternity in New Jerusalem.

Here is one passage of many that says His feet will touch the ground at the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[watchman F]

Ok but where does scripture say He will touch down on Earth? I only see Jesus in the sky at the second advent until after New Earth comes.

The only bit of Rev that hints at it is this:

14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with
him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name
written in their foreheads.

And that can't be literal Mount Sion cos He's back up in the air in chapter 19 coming down from heaven (but never landing on Earth) with His armies on white horses and smiting the nations.

The Lamb stood on Sion with the 144k seems to be simply a vision that John is given in heaven. Or it just has metaphorical significance.

Doc.​

I anwered that question above, but here is one more for you.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus acsended from Earth to Heaven, and when He returns he is returning from Heaven to Earth. ''I like Manner''

 

[watchman F]

I see no reason why Zechariah cant be a prophecy of the 1st advent of Christ. Can you.

Yes i can. If it was speaking of His first advent then it is a false prophesy, seeing as the mount of olive didn't split in two, nor did any of the rest of the prophesy occur. This prophesy hasn't been fulfilled yet. So either it is false (which we know it is not) or it will be fulfilled in the future when Christ returns.