How will the world explain the rapture?

[Strangelove]

I anwered that question above, but here is one more for you.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus acsended from Earth to Heaven, and when He returns he is returning from Heaven to Earth. ''I like Manner''

Um...no.....

The 'manner' is the mode of transport i.e. Throught the sky. On a cloud etc.

It's got nothing to do with the end destination. Only the manner.

He went through the sky and dissapeared behind a cloud when he left.

And He will come back in like manner. i.e. He will appear from behind a cloud and move through the sky.

Doc.

 

[Strangelove]

Strangelove scripture does tell us that Jesus returns immediately after the tribultion, and that He will reign from Earth for 1000 years. Then the Great white throne Judgment, and then eternity in New Jerusalem.

Here is one passage of many that says His feet will touch the ground at the 2nd coming.

Zechariah 14
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

I've already said that this could be a metaphorical prophecy.

You could still convince me, I dont have anything invested in this theory, so show me the other many scriptures that talk about Jesus touching down on Earth at the second advent before New Earth comes.

 

[Strangelove]

Yes i can. If it was speaking of His first advent then it is a false prophesy, seeing as the mount of olive didn't split in two, nor did any of the rest of the prophesy occur. This prophesy hasn't been fulfilled yet. So either it is false (which we know it is not) or it will be fulfilled in the future when Christ returns.

Do mountains sometimes have a metaphorical meaning in scripture?

Someone help me out ::::: is it peoples or nations or something like that?

 

[Alabaster]

What does heaven mean to you? To me it means the firmament. So when the firmament has fled away you are left with the area above the Earth where the firmament was.

The Kingdom of God is not a place in the firmament where we live forever with God and fluffy white clouds and angels with harps. The Kingdom of God is New Jerusalem on the New Earth.

So if God wants to judge the wicked up above the Earth in the area where the firmament has fled away from, then He can do.

There is the first, second and third heaven. Judgment will take place other than the third heaven, for no sin is allowed to enter there. After Judgment, the City of God will come down to Earth, and this revitalized planet will become our forever home---Heaven.

 

[Strangelove]

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Strongs - 2022. har (mountain, hill, hill country)

Original Word: הָר
Transliteration: har
Phonetic Spelling: (har)
Short Definition: hill

Word Origin

of uncertain derivation

Definition

mountain, hill, hill country

NASB Word Usage

hill (16), hill country (91), hills (8), hillside* (1), mount (118), Mount (5), mountain (156), Mountain (2), mountains (161).

hill country, mountain, promotion

A shortened form of harar; a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively) -- hill (country), mount(-ain), X promotion.

What's it used figuratively for sometimes?

Dag nab it for the life of me I can't remember. Is it nation or peoples or something?

​

 

[Strangelove]

There is the first, second and third heaven. Judgment will take place other than the third heaven, for no sin is allowed to enter there. After Judgment, the City of God will come down to Earth, and this revitalized planet will become our forever home---Heaven.

Ok I got no problems with that although personally I'd have to go with a completely NEW Earth rather than a renewed one. So it's possible we can have Judgement in the first or second heaven areas. With or without the firmament actually being there.

 

[Sinthesis]

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Strongs - 2022. har (mountain, hill, hill country)

Original Word: הָר
Transliteration: har
Phonetic Spelling: (har)
Short Definition: hill

Word Origin

of uncertain derivation

Definition

mountain, hill, hill country

NASB Word Usage

hill (16), hill country (91), hills (8), hillside* (1), mount (118), Mount (5), mountain (156), Mountain (2), mountains (161).

hill country, mountain, promotion

A shortened form of harar; a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively) -- hill (country), mount(-ain), X promotion.

What's it used figuratively for sometimes?

Dag nab it for the life of me I can't remember. Is it nation or peoples or something?

​

Dan 2:35 - Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.​

 

[watchman F]

Originally Posted by watchman F
Yes i can. If it was speaking of His first advent then it is a false prophesy, seeing as the mount of olive didn't split in two, nor did any of the rest of the prophesy occur. This prophesy hasn't been fulfilled yet. So either it is false (which we know it is not) or it will be fulfilled in the future when Christ returns.

Do mountains sometimes have a metaphorical meaning in scripture?

Someone help me out ::::: is it peoples or nations or something like that?

Heres is what seems to be your propblem. When confronted with scripture, you try and spiritualize it and try to fnd some hidden meaning behind it, instead of accepting it for what it says. The prophesy found in Zachariah 14 will be fulfilled literally. when you being to realize this, the truth of Christ's return to reign here on Earth will become apparent to you. Simply believe the Bible says what it means and means what it says. It is not complicated.

 

[Bazz1040]

Ok bazz could you please quote where i said we would be disappearing? I take exception to other people putting words in my mouth.





Once again please quote where i said all would not see Him??





Have i ever disputed that?





Once again, where did i say people are going to vanish?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

As I pointed out before the topic was about Christians disappearing and how would people explain it. And by the way the traditional belief of the rapture is that Christians will disappear before the eyes of those around them.

 

[Bazz1040]

This scripture cannot be about Jesus first advent. The mountain of Olives did not split in half moving half the mountain to the north and the other half to the South. This great earthquake can be linked to the great earthquake mentioned in the book of Revelation.

Revelation 16
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Great enough to split the mountain of olives in half and create a great valley.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I did not say it was, but Strangelove was suggesting that. So I was challenging him to show me where that happened when Jesus was here on the Earth. I was simply showing a prophecy of Jesus' second coming that He not remain in the sky, but will descend to the ground.

 

[Bazz1040]

Lolz...I'm just saying Bazz that there is never any mention of Jesus being on Earth and never any mention of any throne being on Earth. Therefore we can't assume that Jesus is touching down on Earth while all this is going until after the New Earth comes where scripture clearly tells us that Jesus and the Father come down to dwell with us.

We clearly see Jesus in the sky all the way through Rev until New Earth. Thats the impression that I got when I first read it and it always puzzles me when I see people talk about Jesus reigning on Earth during the millenium. (which I don't think is a literal thousand years.) Lol.....thats gonna wig your head out even further innit Bazzmeister?

Could you providing some scripture to prove your argument? So far what you have been saying is what you believe. From your argument I could say that Jesus never took a bath because it was never mentioned that He took one. The Bible is not written in a way that would make it easy to understand, which is why one must study all the scriptures......it’s like a jigsaw puzzle....taking a piece from here or there to get a clear picture. So what may not be mentioned in one part may be in another.

It's a prophecy bud. Therefore it can be highly metaphorical. I see the cleaving of the mountain as basically meaning the splitting of um....what do mountains sometimes symbolise in the Bible??? I forget at this minute but it's either peoples or nations or whatever,,,,but either way at the time of the crucifixtion the Jews in Jerusalem at the time needed to make a decision and which side of the valley they were going to be on. The Christ believing side or the side of the old law. So they were split.

Thats what I see as the meaning of Zech 14. It can fit to the first advent..

Not everything that is mentined in prophecy is metaphorical.

So when did this event below happened?

For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished, and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

When did all the Nations gathered against Jerusalem, and when did Jesus fought against them?

And are you aware of duality in prophecy or even symbolism in scripture? Where something is a fore-shadow of what is to come? For example, Jesus is called the second Adam. Israel was called the Church in the wilderness. The suffering of David symbolized what Jesus would go through.

Um....I'll go for space. The heaven and Earth have passed away and we're in space with Jesus at his throne in a weird murky vacuum of nothingness. I guess the bible might designate it as heaven but just meaning not on Earth.

I'll say not on Earth. Lolz.

Space is still be heaven.

 

[Bazz1040]

Um...no.....

The 'manner' is the mode of transport i.e. Throught the sky. On a cloud etc.

It's got nothing to do with the end destination. Only the manner.

He went through the sky and dissapeared behind a cloud when he left.

And He will come back in like manner. i.e. He will appear from behind a cloud and move through the sky.

Doc.

It says "Shall come in like manor..." In other words, He ascended from mount olive; He will also descend on mount olive. That is what it means in like manner.....anything less is not in like manner.

 

[Strangelove]

Heres is what seems to be your propblem. When confronted with scripture, you try and spiritualize it and try to fnd some hidden meaning behind it, instead of accepting it for what it says. The prophesy found in Zachariah 14 will be fulfilled literally. when you being to realize this, the truth of Christ's return to reign here on Earth will become apparent to you. Simply believe the Bible says what it means and means what it says. It is not complicated.

Whoa hold on there just a second Watchman.

That's like saying that the whole bible must be taken literally and there are no metaphorical parts in it.

How do you handle the book of Revelation if that's your position?

I'm not pretending to be the absolute authority on what parts of the bible are metaphorical but doesn't Zech 14 at least deserve to have it's metaphorical meanings analyzed?

I could just as easily say to you:

When you understand the prophesy found in Zachariah 14 will be fulfilled metaphorically. when you being to realize this, the truth of Christ's reign will become apparent to you.

But I won't say that becasue prophecy is a very tricky subject and no-one knows the full story.

Let me just ask you this question. When Jesus alledgedly touches down on the mount of olives....is that the start of the millenium reign?

Doc.

 

[Strangelove]

Could you providing some scripture to prove your argument? So far what you have been saying is what you believe. From your argument I could say that Jesus never took a bath because it was never mentioned that He took one. The Bible is not written in a way that would make it easy to understand, which is why one must study all the scriptures......it’s like a jigsaw puzzle....taking a piece from here or there to get a clear picture. So what may not be mentioned in one part may be in another.

Well....I certainly cannot provide any scripture that says "Jesus WILL NOT land on Earth" at His second coming, if that's specifically what you want.

I can certainly post several scriptures that talk about Jesus being in the air at the second advent. Do you really want me to? I mean....

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.​

Theres no mention of coming DOWN to Earth there Bazz. When there SHOULD be if He does. Right? And it seems He already HAS power and great glory so He's not coming down to Earth to collect those things when He reigns.

26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you,
Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.​

Again there is no coming down to Earth when there should be if He does. And doesn't 'the right hand of power' always refer to God's Throne? Is God coming down to Earth aswell at the second advent?

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and
they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Yet again no mention that He's gonna touch down on the ground. And every eye shall see Him. How is every eye gonna see Him if He sets down in Jerusalem? Are you gonna trust the NWO controlled TV stations to tell you the truth or are you only gonna believe you're own eyes?

The return seems to be like lightening that goes across the sky from east to west. Thats what we're told.

All the destruction caused by God happens from the sky in revelation without any return to Earth. Jesus smashes those at Armageddon from the sky. the complete dissolution of the Earth comes about by fire 'coming down from God out of heaven'

Not everything that is mentined in prophecy is metaphorical.

So when did this event below happened?

When did all the Nations gathered against Jerusalem, and when did Jesus fought against them?

That could fit to all sorts of events. It could all be metaphorical. Jesus did battle against the old law and the sins of the world by dying on the cross for our sins. It could be talking about the Father doing battle against nations by bringing them to do battle against eachother...which has happened on many occasion. The Roman legions had many gentile nationalities in it's ranks when it crushed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Let me flip it around and ask you. If Jesus landing on Earth marks the start of the blissful millenial rule how can these things be happening that are described in Zech 14 AFTER HE TOUCHES DOWN:

-Terrible plagues smiting people (verse 12)

-Neighbour fighting against neighbour in great tumult (verse 13)

-Judah fighting at Jerusalem (verse 14)

-Plagues on animals (verse 15)

-Drought is put on some who don't come to worship and others are killed (verses 17,18)

-Bells will be put on horses and sacrifices made! (verse 20,21) .....huh? With Jesus the one and only LAST sacrifice present and ruling?

This is the blissful millenium?? :

Space is still be heaven.

The firmament is heaven. Space is an area.

 

[Alabaster]

Zechariah 14:4, regarding the Day of the Lord:
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

 

[Strangelove]

It says "Shall come in like manor..." In other words, He ascended from mount olive; He will also descend on mount olive. That is what it means in like manner.....anything less is not in like manner.

Bazz.....If you said to your wife, 'I'm going to the football game tonight' and she asked you 'How are you getting there?'

Would you say:

1) By car

or

2) I'm leaving from work and arriving at the North stand.

?

 

[Strangelove]

Zechariah 14:4, regarding the Day of the Lord:
On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem. And the Mount of Olives will split apart, making a wide valley running from east to west. Half the mountain will move toward the north and half toward the south.

His feet did stand on the mount of olives at his first coming.

 

[Alabaster]

His feet did stand on the mount of olives at his first coming.

Bzzzzt. False. The portion from Zechariah describes the Day of the Lord---that great Day when He comes to destroy the enemy and rule the nations. That day the Mount of Olives will split apart making new boundaries.

Come on.

 

[Strangelove]

Bzzzzt. False. The portion from Zechariah describes the Day of the Lord---that great Day when He comes to destroy the enemy and rule the nations. That day the Mount of Olives will split apart making new boundaries.

Come on.

So Zecharias referred to the crucifixtion as the day of the Lord, is that so strange. It was certainly a momentous day......of the Lord.

In the NT the Day of the Lord is used to talk about the second advent becasue that will also be a momentous event and day of the Lord.

Tell me does Paul or any of the apostles ever mention Zech 14 as being a prophecy of the second advent?

Did they ever talk about Jesus coming down and walking amongst us before New Earth comes?

Did they miss something that modern Christians figured out?

 

[Strangelove]

And another question is:

Is Jesus King of Kings and Lord of Lords now and infact since His ultimate sacrifice on the cross..........or will there only be one true LORD at His second coming?