How will the world explain the rapture?

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As I pointed out before the topic was about Christians disappearing and how would people explain it. And by the way the traditional belief of the rapture is that Christians will disappear before the eyes of those around them.

That belief seems to be held by Pre-tribulation believers. From my perspective it is not a steadfast Rapture belief. Unfortunately the only Rapture belief given mass media coverage has been the pre-tribulation position. People want to believe it so it is popular. This leads people to believe that Rapture belief is exclusively Pre-tribulation and all that goes with it. (including the disappearing part).

I have been on a few forums where someone will come out swinging against rapture because the only version they have ever head about is Pre-tribulation Rapture, It often takes some time to convince them that there are other interpretations of Rapture like post trib.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

And another question is:

Is Jesus King of Kings and Lord of Lords now and infact since His ultimate sacrifice on the cross..........or will there only be one true LORD at His second coming?

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings to us who are subjects of His Kingdom of Spirit.

But the kingdoms of the World do not become under His direct control until satan is bound in chains and cast into the bottomless pit. That happens during the return of the Messiah


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

I really don't understand what the problem is with Jesus coming down to earth and ruling it for 1000 years. Is there some kind of moral objection? Or some kind of fear of deception?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Bazz1040]

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Well....I certainly cannot provide any scripture that says "Jesus WILL NOT land on Earth" at His second coming, if that's specifically what you want.

You can't prove that what you believe from the scripture but yet you insist that what you believe is correct.....interesting.

I can certainly post several scriptures that talk about Jesus being in the air at the second advent. Do you really want me to? I mean....

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great​

glory.

No one is arguing about that.

Theres no mention of coming DOWN to Earth there Bazz.

When we provide scripture of that you dismiss it or spiritualize it away because it does not fit into what you believe.

When there SHOULD be if He does. Right? And it seems He already HAS power and great glory so He's not coming down to Earth to collect those things when He reigns.

26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you,

Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of

power, and coming in the clouds of heaven..​

No one is saying that Jesus does not have power and great glory.....I sure did not.

Again there is no coming down to Earth when there should be if He does. And doesn't 'the right hand of power' always refer to God's Throne? Is God coming down to Earth aswell at the second advent?

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and

they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail

because of him. Even so, Amen..​

You have much to learn but that will not happen if one insists on making assumption that just because it does not say it in a particular verse that is proof in and of itself.​

Yet again no mention that He's gonna touch down on the ground. And every eye shall see Him. How is every eye gonna see Him if He sets down in Jerusalem? Are you gonna trust the NWO controlled TV stations to tell you the truth or are you only gonna believe you're own eyes?

​

We did not say that it is when He is on the ground that all will see Him. Just like a plane in the sky many people are able to see it, and then some time after that it begins to descend and lands.​

The return seems to be like lightening that goes across the sky from east to west. Thats what we're told.

All the destruction caused by God happens from the sky in revelation without any return to Earth. Jesus smashes those at Armageddon from the sky. the complete dissolution of the Earth comes about by fire 'coming down from God out of heaven'​

Again, I am not arguing that. If you are misunderstanding what I am saying, then how can you not misunderstand much of the Bible?

That could fit to all sorts of events. It could all be metaphorical. Jesus did battle against the old law and the sins of the world by dying on the cross for our sins. It could be talking about the Father doing battle against nations by bringing them to do battle against eachother...which has happened on many occasion.

The Roman legions had many gentile nationalities in it's ranks when it crushed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Let me flip it around and ask you.​

What you are putting out here is your own private interpretation.

If Jesus landing on Earth marks the start of the blissful millenial rule how can these things be happening that are described in Zech 14 AFTER HE TOUCHES DOWN:

​

-Terrible plagues smiting people (verse 12)

-Neighbour fighting against neighbour in great tumult (verse 13)​

-Judah fighting at Jerusalem (verse 14)​

-Plagues on animals (verse 15)​

-Drought is put on some who don't come to worship and others are killed (verses 17,18)​

-Bells will be put on horses and sacrifices made! (verse 20,21) .....huh? With Jesus the one and only LAST sacrifice present and ruling?​

This is the blissful millenium?? :.​

​

The answer to those questions is simple. When Jesus returns the powers that be will not give up power so easily.....they will resist. And even when they are defeated it does not mean that their attitude will change overnight. The Bible tells us that any Nation that does not go up to Jerusalem to worship King (Jesus) they will not have any rain.

In the millennium Nations will come and worship Jesus.

Zechariah 14:16-17 (ASV)
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso of all the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. ​

So there will still be a few resisters here and their but in time all will get the point and will obey.​

The firmament is heaven. Space is an area.

​

You can call it whatever you want....but the Bible calls where the sun, moon and stars heaven.​

​

 

[Strangelove]

I really don't understand what the problem is with Jesus coming down to earth and ruling it for 1000 years. Is there some kind of moral objection? Or some kind of fear of deception?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Yes the issue is deception. The dispensational and millenialist doctrines are designed to mislead people and have them looking at the wrong place at the critical moment.

There will be a messiah ruling for a time on Earth........

........but he will be the false messiah.

And the other problem is.....the only scripture people can come up with that says Jesus will be on Earth at the second advent, is an ancient Zech 14 verse that can easily be ascribed to the 1st advent. I mean...I assume that people know that Zech 9:9 is talking about the 1st advent? Yay...Nay? So why can't Zech 14?

And it even says the Lord will stand on the mount of Olives. Not even come down from heaven and land!

I don't know why people insist on stretching this prophecy 2500 years further through time when it could and probably is describing what happened only 500 years after it was given.

Is Jesus King now or is He coming to be King?

 

[Strangelove]

Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings to us who are subjects of His Kingdom of Spirit.

But the kingdoms of the World do not become under His direct control until satan is bound in chains and cast into the bottomless pit. That happens during the return of the Messiah


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Right so...since He came onto the scene Jesus has been the only true Lord.

No matter how far the leash is that He has allowed satan control of the nations of the world....He's still the one and only true Lord. Correct?

 

[Bazz1040]

Bazz.....If you said to your wife, 'I'm going to the football game tonight' and she asked you 'How are you getting there?'

Would you say:

1) By car

or

2) I'm leaving from work and arriving at the North stand.

?

I fail to see how what the angel told the disciples with what you say here. Since Jesus ascend from mount olive to Heaven. Then coming back in like manor means that He will leave (bodily) Heaven, He will be seen in the air and then descend on mount olive. Is not that in like manner as He left, yes or no?

 

[Bazz1040]

Yes the issue is deception. The dispensational and millenialist doctrines are designed to mislead people and have them looking at the wrong place at the critical moment.

There will be a messiah ruling for a time on Earth........

........but he will be the false messiah.

And the other problem is.....the only scripture people can come up with that says Jesus will be on Earth at the second advent, is an ancient Zech 14 verse that can easily be ascribed to the 1st advent. I mean...I assume that people know that Zech 9:9 is talking about the 1st advent? Yay...Nay? So why can't Zech 14?

And it even says the Lord will stand on the mount of Olives. Not even come down from heaven and land!

I don't know why people insist on stretching this prophecy 2500 years further through time when it could and probably is describing what happened only 500 years after it was given.

Is Jesus King now or is He coming to be King?

The false messiah will be during the Great Tribulation and the Bible does not say he will come from the sky and descend......the false messiah will be a normal man claiming to be God.

 

[Strangelove]

You can't prove that what you believe from the scripture but yet you insist that what you believe is correct.....interesting.

Well....you believe that Jesus, at His second advent will come OUT of heaven and land on the mount of Olives. And you have no scripture to back that up either. All you have is Zech 14 that says that one day He will stand on that mount....which we know He did, in person 500 years after the prophecy was given.


None of the apostles paid any attention about Zech 14 being a prophecy of the second advent so why do you?

When we provide scripture of that you dismiss it or spiritualize it away because it does not fit into what you believe.

I'm not dismissing I'm just considering the notion that it could be talking about the first advent. And it does fit the event if you take the verses metaphorically.

And revelation.....the actual book DEVOTED to the second advent. Has Jesus in the sky for the whole duration with nary a hint of Jesus setting foot on this old earth ever again. Unless you wanna take the mount sion 144k verse literally which doesn't make sense as it contradicts your mt of olives thing and Jesus is back in the sky a chapter or two later.

Like I say...I don't have anything invested in this I'm just looking at it with no preconcieved ideas with an open mind and in a logical manner.

You have much to learn but that will not happen if one insists on making assumption that just because it does not say it in a particular verse that is proof in and of itself.​

Well, your assuming that Zech 14 is talking about the second advent when there are two events that it could be referring to....so.....

You did say this at the top of the post:

You can't prove that what you believe from the scripture but yet you insist that what you believe is correct.....interesting.

...your kinda doing the same thing Bazz.​

We did not say that it is when He is on the ground that all will see Him. Just like a plane in the sky many people are able to see it, and then some time after that it begins to descend and lands.​

So when exactly in Rev is the cut off point where not everyone will see Him....and only those privaladged to be on the mount of olives will see Him? Well....lolz....they arn't gonna be too privaledged cos according to you theres gonna be a massive earthquake right there. ​

Again, I am not arguing that. If you are misunderstanding what I am saying, then how can you not misunderstand much of the Bible?

What you are putting out here is your own private interpretation.
​

Ok Bazzmeister let's not fall out over this bud. Prophecy is a notoriously difficult area and none of us really know the entire picture. Yes it's my interpretation based on scripture and you are doing the same.

I was just saying Rev describes Jesus as being in the air for all the events that happen. ​

The answer to those questions is simple. When Jesus returns the powers that be will not give up power so easily.....they will resist. And even when they are defeated it does not mean that their attitude will change overnight. The Bible tells us that any Nation that does not go up to Jerusalem to worship King (Jesus) they will not have any rain.​

In the millennium Nations will come and worship Jesus.​

Zechariah 14:16-17 (ASV)

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso of all the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain. ​

So there will still be a few resisters here and their but in time all will get the point and will obey.​

Hang on??? Hasn't Satan already been bound up at this point? How can there be resistance that can only come by the work of evil. Evil has been banished until after the 'millenium'. There is NO deceit in the world whatsoever! It doesnt make any sense.

Why would Jesus preside over animal sacrifices?​

Is Jesus King now Bazz? Or are we waiting for Him to be King?

 

[Strangelove]

The false messiah will be during the Great Tribulation and the Bible does not say he will come from the sky and descend......the false messiah will be a normal man claiming to be God.

Yes but don't we have the technology to make it LOOK like the false messiah comes out of heaven?

Space station? Lazers? Plans for giant mirrors in space to stop global warming? Project BLUEBEAM? Fake alien invasion?

Lolz...I sound like Johny Bothright now.

 

[Adstar]

Right so...since He came onto the scene Jesus has been the only true Lord.

No matter how far the leash is that He has allowed satan control of the nations of the world....He's still the one and only true Lord. Correct?

No.

Many people on earth have satan as their Lord. Even thought Jesus is the only Lord in Eternity for all who exist with him in Eternity, He is definitely Not Lord to the majority of the Worlds population today.

The fact that satan has only been given enough rope to hang himself does not mean He is not also a Lord. People make him a lord by following him as lord.

But the day is coming when the kingdoms of the world (satans kingdoms) will become the Kingdoms of the Messiah Jesus.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

I fail to see how what the angel told the disciples with what you say here. Since Jesus ascend from mount olive to Heaven. Then coming back in like manor means that He will leave (bodily) Heaven, He will be seen in the air and then descend on mount olive. Is not that in like manner as He left, yes or no?

The part in red is a description of the mannor. Yes.

Mount olive is a description of the location. Which has nothing to do with the mannor.

If I was told that by the angels I would be thinking....Ok....I'm keeping my eyes on the sky and clouds coz thats the manner our Lord is returning. Through the air. As opposed to on a boat or erupting from a volcano or whatever. It's the MODE of transport.

 

[Strangelove]

No.

Many people on earth have satan as their Lord. Even thought Jesus is the only Lord in Eternity for all who exist with him in Eternity, He is definitely Not Lord to the majority of the Worlds population today.

The fact that satan has only been given enough rope to hang himself does not mean He is not also a Lord. People make him a lord by following him as lord.

But the day is coming when the kingdoms of the world (satans kingdoms) will become the Kingdoms of the Messiah Jesus.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hold on. Weere not talking about what illusions certain people have about who is King or Lord. The only thing we care about is the TRUTH.

Even if people have been decieved into thinking that Satan is their Lord......HE ISN'T. Jesus is Lord of His Kingdom and has been for a very very long time.

Just because the Pharisees rejected Jesus as King didn't mean He didn't inherit His Kingship and rule over them anyway. Even physical death couldn't stop that.

 

[Adstar]

Yes the issue is deception. The dispensational and millenialist doctrines are designed to mislead people and have them looking at the wrong place at the critical moment.

There will be a messiah ruling for a time on Earth........

........but he will be the false messiah.

Ok so it is fear of Deception.

The bible shows us that Jesus will return as He left. As an Adult man not as a baby. And he will not be a normal looking man either. He is described in the early part of the Book of Revelation. he will be in His glorified body. Do you believe that the Son of perdition is going to suddenly appear descending down from the sky and all the world will see the son of perdition coming?

I don't believe that the Son of perdition needs to pull off such a grand deception because lets face it most people do not even read the scriptures and the number who read books like Revelation are a small minority of that small minority.

Also with the "symbolic" interpretation that is so popular in these times most of the clear descriptions given as to the signs of the Messiah's return can be turned into any kind of interpretation the Son of Perdition likes.

I believe the Son of Perdition is going to be born, just like normal men. He is probably born and alive today growing up somewhere or even an adult now. I don't believe He will try to make out He has come down from heaven in His adult state. He does not need to anyway cause most people do not believe in Literal interpretation of the signs of the Messiah's second coming.

And the other problem is.....the only scripture people can come up with that says Jesus will be on Earth at the second advent, is an ancient Zech 14 verse that can easily be ascribed to the 1st advent. I mean...I assume that people know that Zech 9:9 is talking about the 1st advent? Yay...Nay? So why can't Zech 14?

And it even says the Lord will stand on the mount of Olives. Not even come down from heaven and land!

I don't know why people insist on stretching this prophecy 2500 years further through time when it could and probably is describing what happened only 500 years after it was given.

Yeah but are you "symbolizing" the sign of the splitting of the Mountain of olives out of the same fear of deception you have expressed above?

I know that the Son of Perdition will deceive many and that they will behead followers of the True Messiah Jesus and they will be thinking they are doing God service when they do it. But my Faith/trust in God is that He will guard the minds and give wisdom and discernment to those who have accepted the Love of His truth so that they will not be deceived.

I believe even though we may give warning to those who believe they believe Jesus but in fact have accepted "another jesus" Any warning we give will be swamped by the deception. Not because the deception is something so perfect and so powerful. But because God will blind those who have rejected the Love of His truth and will given them over to deception. It is easy to deceive people who have been blinded.

Is Jesus King now or is He coming to be King?

Ok i think i answered this in my earlier reply. If you need clarification please let me know.



All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[Adstar]

Hold on. Weere not talking about what illusions certain people have about who is King or Lord. The only thing we care about is the TRUTH.

Even if people have been decieved into thinking that Satan is their Lord......HE ISN'T. Jesus is Lord of His Kingdom and has been for a very very long time.

Jesus stated quite clearly that His Kingdom was not of this world. And it is still not of this world. Even though members of His kingdom live in this world today.

But the kingdoms of this world shall become the Kingdoms of the Messiah only upon His second coming. And he shall rule them with an Iron Rod.

Just because the Pharisees rejected Jesus as King didn't mean He didn't inherit His Kingship and rule over them anyway. Even physical death couldn't stop that.

But God still gave people the freedom to reject His way of Salvation and they did and most still do. No point calling Jesus Lord of people who have rejected Him and are in rebellion against his will. Because they do not recognise Him as their Lord.

Of course God is in total control of the destiny of all existence, But for a time He has allowed His creation to rebel against Him. We are still living in this time of rebellion and it shall not completely end until the final judgement.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

Ok so it is fear of Deception.

The bible shows us that Jesus will return as He left. As an Adult man not as a baby. And he will not be a normal looking man either. He is described in the early part of the Book of Revelation. he will be in His glorified body. Do you believe that the Son of perdition is going to suddenly appear descending down from the sky and all the world will see the son of perdition coming?

No but I know for a fact that mankind has the technology to make it LOOK like a man is coming out of the sky. And as the poisening of the populace through medication and gm foods and chemtrails gets worse the deception will have a much greater effect.

I don't believe that the Son of perdition needs to pull off such a grand deception because lets face it most people do not even read the scriptures and the number who read books like Revelation are a small minority of that small minority.

Hmmm....theres plenty of people who read scripture and are wrapped up in the rapture doctrine. People read but they also read too many commentary's and listen to too many false teachers in their churches and read too many books like the 'Left Behind' series that promotes false doctrine.

Satan is going to utilize every possible means of deception too fool as many as possible into worshipping the beast and following the false messiah. If he needs to use, lazers...smoke machines and holograms to hoax endtimes events then its no biggie for him to go and do that. Would you expect anything less?

Also with the "symbolic" interpretation that is so popular in these times most of the clear descriptions given as to the signs of the Messiah's return can be turned into any kind of interpretation the Son of Perdition likes.

Again...theres plenty of Christians who know that Jesus is actually going to appear and there will be events going on. Satan needs to fool those people too. He's gonna try everything.

I believe the Son of Perdition is going to be born, just like normal men. He is probably born and alive today growing up somewhere or even an adult now. I don't believe He will try to make out He has come down from heaven in His adult state. He does not need to anyway cause most people do not believe in Literal interpretation of the signs of the Messiah's second coming.

I agree about the son of perdition being a human man and all that but......most Christians I know believe in a literal return in the sky of Jesus. In fact theres only Smaller who thinks that the whole thing is a spiritual event. Hey////what happened to Smaller is he on holiday? Holiday for us too.

Yeah but are you "symbolizing" the sign of the splitting of the Mountain of olives out of the same fear of deception you have expressed above?

No I'm just taking into consideration that it might be a metaphorical meaning. And the pieces fit so it has to be an option. And revelation never talks about Jesus touching down on terra firma with all the action happening in the sky. So rather than rely on a shaky ancient prophecy which could apply to either advent (and probably to the first is a better fit) I'll go with what Rev has to say on the matter.

I know that the Son of Perdition will deceive many and that they will behead followers of the True Messiah Jesus and they will be thinking they are doing God service when they do it. But my Faith/trust in God is that He will guard the minds and give wisdom and discernment to those who have accepted the Love of His truth so that they will not be deceived.

The rapture ready crew are going to be decieved wouldn't you agree? Their faith is gonna go flying out the window when they eventually realise that the great tribulation is upon them. Theres no difference. I don't see any difference between them and the people who are absolutely positive that Jesus is gonna land on the mount of olives. They are brethren inChrist but they are both wide open to deception. I'm certainly not gonna be trusting any TV feed of Jesus in Jerusalem shaking hands with the pope and the President of the U.N. and whoever else on the mount. No way. I'll still be lookin for the real return up in the sky.

I believe even though we may give warning to those who believe they believe Jesus but in fact have accepted "another jesus" Any warning we give will be swamped by the deception. Not because the deception is something so perfect and so powerful. But because God will blind those who have rejected the Love of His truth and will given them over to deception. It is easy to deceive people who have been blinded.

Well....yeah...I'm not trying to save the world here.....we're just chatting about prophecy. There will be strong decption going on. Just tryin' to thrash out what that may be.

Ok i think i answered this in my earlier reply. If you need clarification please let me know.

Theres so much scripture that talks about Jesus being declared King and having his Kingdom at least since His ascention to heaven that it's clear in my mind that Jesus has always been King and Lord over the entire Earth no matter Satans decieving of peoples.

Jesus is not coming to be King He already is. So Zech 14 cannot be talking about the second advent only the first.

 

[Alabaster]

So Zecharias referred to the crucifixtion as the day of the Lord, is that so strange. It was certainly a momentous day......of the Lord.

In the NT the Day of the Lord is used to talk about the second advent becasue that will also be a momentous event and day of the Lord.

Tell me does Paul or any of the apostles ever mention Zech 14 as being a prophecy of the second advent?

Did they ever talk about Jesus coming down and walking amongst us before New Earth comes?

Did they miss something that modern Christians figured out?

You need to read all of Zechariah 14. It is talking about Christ's Millennial Reign. He definitely will come and be among the nations for 1000 years before the New Earth comes.

 

[watchman F]

You need to read all of Zechariah 14. It is talking about Christ's Millennial Reign. He definitely will come and be among the nations for 1000 years before the New Earth comes.

Agreed.....

Strangelove, what is it about this truth that causes you to resist it?

 

[Strangelove]

You need to read all of Zechariah 14. It is talking about Christ's Millennial Reign. He definitely will come and be among the nations for 1000 years before the New Earth comes.

So there is killing and war and drought and plagues and animal sacrifices going on in the blissful millenial reign?

Why would Jesus preside over animal sacrifices? He was the last sacrifice ever needed.

Jesus himself seems to make a reference to Zech 14. Compare these verses.

Zech 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from

Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them
toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried,
saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)​

As scripture hath said?

Is Jesus talking about Zech 14:8?

I think so! And when did He become glorified? After His crucifixtion and He was raised up.


Is Jesus King now or is He coming to be King?

 

[Strangelove]

Agreed.....

Strangelove, what is it about this truth that causes you to resist it?

Lolz...I dunno man. Maybe it's the Holy Spirit. I dont see it as cold hard truth.

I'm not even close to being convinced that Jesus touches down on Earth and walks around in a millenial reign.

The only thing supporting it is an obscure OT prophecy which can easily fit to the first advent that none of the Apostles even come close to referencing as the second return of the Lord....

......and the whole of Revelation talks of Jesus being in the air!

And so does the rest of the NT.

Unless you say Mt. Sion is a literal mountain, which doesn't make sense.

Alarm bells go off when I see Christians who are so sure about this.....Jesus touching down on this old Earth is not a certainty. Not even close.