How will the world explain the rapture?

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I want to take a walk through Zechariah 14 and show how on so many points that it cannot be showing the First Advent of the Messiah Jesus.


Zechariah 14

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

This above portion describes an attack on Jerusalem, Jerusalem will be taken. And half it's population will be taken away as captives.

People might say this is a prophecy about what happened to Jerusalem in 70AD but it cannot be because Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70AD and all its people where driven into exile.

Zechariah 14


3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.

After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD Jesus did not come and fight against the Roman Destroyers of Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14


4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

This cannot be a description of the first advent of Jesus because Jesus came and was risen and assended into Heaven 40 years before the destruction of Israel. Apart from the fact that nothing happened to the Mount of olives during the time Jesus was alive.

Zechariah 14


5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

There was no Mountain valley that reached as far as Azal during the time of Jesus or during the time of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Zechariah 14


Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

The Lord Jesus did not Come with ALL the saints on His first Advent. This is actually in alignment with The prophecies of the Book of Revelation about Jesus coming to earth with His resurrected/raptured saints

.Zechariah 14


6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

This section of scripture can be used to describe the happenings on the Day of the Messiah's execution. But that execution happened 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. Zech 14 is describing that happening after Jerusalem has been attacked. The darkening of the Day matches the Prophecies of the Book of Revelation about the day being darkened on the Day of the Messiah's Return.

Zechariah 14


8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.

Of course one can symbolise the above portion of scripture. But it seems more suited to a literal interpretation. Why would spiritual water be described as only flowing east and west and towards the eastern and western Sea's. It even gives seasons when this will occur, summer and winter.

Zechariah 14


9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

There was no change in the topography of Israel during the time of the Messiah's first Advent. No great plain was made and Jerusalem was not thrusted up by great tectonic movements. In the Book of Revelation however it is predicted that a great earthquake will strike the world the greatest ever seen since man was on the world. Such an earthquake could and will cause such dramatic changes to the earth’s surface.

Zechariah 14


11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

40 years after The Messiah's first advent Jerusalem did face destruction. And there was no safety for it's inhabitents. Only starvation and death.

Zechariah 14


12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;

Nothing like this ever happened to the Roman occupiers of Israel during the time of the Messiah's return. But we are told in the Book of Revelation that on the day of the second coming of the Messiah as great army massed on the pains of meggedo will face utter destruction.

Zechariah 14



14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.

The Roman empire never sent all its gold and silver and wealth to Jerusalem after it's destruction of 70AD.

Zechariah 14


15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Clearly the Romans never went to Jerusalem year to year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. But apart from that during the 1000 year Kingdom who says this feast cannot be celebrated as a Memorial to the Day of the return of the Messiah. Did not Jesus Himself establish a Memorial on the last Passover He celebrated? Do we not break bread and drink wine in Memory of His act of Atonement for us. And no, true Christians do not sacrifice Jesus again each time they do this. that’s a "tradition of men" that has nothing to do with the true memorial Jesus established at His last supper.

Zechariah 14


17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Once again the above prophecy never came true upon the first advent of the Messiah. There where no plagues like the one described where peoples tongues and eyes dissolved in their heads, nor where there droughts because people would not come up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zechariah 14


20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

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[/FONT]So, there are many prophecies in Zech 14 that both disqualify it as being about the times of the First Advent of the Messiah. Indeed the same prophecies lean far more towards the Second Advent of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

The Bible does not say in order for a Christian that is alive he or she has to see Jesus before they are changed. When Jesus returns it will not be a quite return.....it will be with a great sound like a trumpet, and the dead in Christ will rise first. I mean, if one needed to see Jesus, then how would the dead in Christ be raised from the grave in a glorified body? If a Christian is inside of a building or a prison without access to an outside window they would not see Jesus, right then and there.......they would see Him after they have been changed and ascend to meet Him. Our change is dependent on Jesus’ return, not on us immediately seeing Him.

Obviously not talking about the dead Bazzmeister. But everyone who is living will see Him:

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and
they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
because of him. Even so, Amen.​

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.
​

26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you,
Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
​

3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also
appear with him in glory.​

I wouldn't count on being glorified before you see Jesus in the clouds Bazz.​

 

[Strangelove]

This above portion describes an attack on Jerusalem, Jerusalem will be taken. And half it's population will be taken away as captives.

People might say this is a prophecy about what happened to Jerusalem in 70AD but it cannot be because Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70AD and all its people where driven into exile.

Are you sure a percentage of people didn't escape Ad?

From wiki:

The Roman legions quickly crushed the remaining Jewish resistance. Part of the remaining Jews escaped through hidden underground tunnels, while others made a final stand in the Upper City.

And how about the people who lived in the city that wern't Jews. Could they have been absorbed into the Roman garrison that was left there?

Are you certain that every single Jew that was driven out of Jerusalem in 70A.D. ended up as a captive?

After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD Jesus did not come and fight against the Roman Destroyers of Jerusalem.

He did battle spiritually. By living in the hearts of His believers?

Lolz....I'm just saying if you look at it with as open mind as possible it can fit.

This cannot be a description of the first advent of Jesus because Jesus came and was risen and assended into Heaven 40 years before the destruction of Israel. Apart from the fact that nothing happened to the Mount of olives during the time Jesus was alive.

I've already said the the mountain (kingdom) splitting can be scene as metaphorical.

There was no Mountain valley that reached as far as Azal during the time of Jesus or during the time of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Thats coz the valley could be metaphorical. Wheres Azal anyway? Could that be the furthest most influence of the Apostles after Christs death?

The Lord Jesus did not Come with ALL the saints on His first Advent. This is actually in alignment with The prophecies of the Book of Revelation about Jesus coming to earth with His resurrected/raptured saints

If there was any righteous people or prophets at the time of Christ then they could count as saints. Jesus had some interation with dead Saints:

27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the
ghost.

27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top
to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which
slept arose,

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the
holy city, and appeared unto many.​

This section of scripture can be used to describe the happenings on the Day of the Messiah's execution. But that execution happened 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. Zech 14 is describing that happening after Jerusalem has been attacked. The darkening of the Day matches the Prophecies of the Book of Revelation about the day being darkened on the Day of the Messiah's Return.

Could be any old eclipse happening at any time.

Of course one can symbolise the above portion of scripture. But it seems more suited to a literal interpretation. Why would spiritual water be described as only flowing east and west and towards the eastern and western Sea's. It even gives seasons when this will occur, summer and winter.

Fits fine to either I'd say.

But are you saying that 'living waters' is gonna be actual H2O?

There was no change in the topography of Israel during the time of the Messiah's first Advent. No great plain was made and Jerusalem was not thrusted up by great tectonic movements. In the Book of Revelation however it is predicted that a great earthquake will strike the world the greatest ever seen since man was on the world. Such an earthquake could and will cause such dramatic changes to the earth’s surface.

Fisrtly. In that day shall He be King over all the Earth doesn't fit the second advent coz Jesus has been King since the first advent.

Secondly. A plain being made could just mean a bunch of trees being cut down in that area.

Thirdly. Jerusalem getting 'raised up' doesnt have to mean an earthquake. It could mean the status of Jerusalem is raised up.

40 years after The Messiah's first advent Jerusalem did face destruction. And there was no safety for it's inhabitents. Only starvation and death.

Well...it could be talkin 'bout Jerusalem being safely inhabited from the destruction till now no?

More to follow.....................

 

[Bazz1040]

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Huh? So every metaphorical verse in the bible needs to be backed up and confirmed as metaphorical somewhere else in the bible?? Thats ridiculous. Are you challenging me to find a metaphorical verse that you adhere to that isn't 'confirmed' by another passage?

No offense intended here but is English your first language? I ask this because I did not say what you are saying.....go back and read what I said.

I never said every time a mountain is mentioned it's metaphoric. I just said that Zech 14 could be a metaphoric split of a Kingdom.

And I asked you to prove to me in the book of Zech that mountain in that verse or chapter is a metaphor.

Wasn't Herod the King at the time of Jesus?

2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of
Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to
Jerusalem,​

King of what? Isreal? Judah? I don't know but a king is not a king without a kingdom.​

I'm pretty sure they were talking about New Jerusalem or the spiritual Kingdom of God in our hearts don't you? Or do you think the disciples were expecting a physical Kingdom with an Earthly ruler like the Pharisees wanted?

Herod was simply a figure head......he was not a true king in the sense of what a king is. Herod was himself a subject of the Romans and Roman Empire. So Judah was not a true kingdom. All the Jews were subjects and a conquered people; a shadow of their former glory.

If the disciples meant the New Jerusalem they would not say restore the kingdom. Restoring means, return to its original or usable and functioning condition. The New Jerusalem is New, so it would not be referred as restore or restoring. And the kingdom of God is a literal kingdom and not just something in one mind. The disciples thought Jesus was going to set up the kingdom, which is why they did not expect Jesus to die.

The people wern't split in half the Kingdom was. And the people in the valley had a choice of which side of the mountain they wanted to go to. Why do exact numbers matter? Do you have exact numbers of who followed who? Didn't gentiles come to Jerusalem to join the Kingdom of Christ? Do they count too?

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How do you split a kingdom in half without involving half of the people? Can one split the U.S in half with only a hand full of those in the government or a fraction of the citizens? I mean if a million Americans were to leave the U.S and decide to form another government elsewhere, would that divide the Nation or it’s government? And where in the New Testament is this mentioned? The gentiles were never part of the Jewish Nation. And the Jewish Nation was never the kingdom of Jesus. Jesus Himself said that His kingdom was not of this world.

Oh ok....so...yes it's possible that the Apostles made the same mistake that I'm making. So basically it's me and the Apostles Vs you and Darby and Schofield and the modern dispensationalist crowd.

None of them say anything about Jesus landing on Earth and none refer to Zech 14 as the second advent. And I'm going the same way coz I respect them more than modern bible versions that distort the truth.

You are avoiding my question. I am going to ask you one last time. How do you know the reason why they did not mentioned it is the reason you are saying it is? Please answer that question. Don't tell me about who is right or wrong, just answer the question underlined.


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I don't believe it, just a guess. You could clear it up by simply stating plainly if you are pre-trib or not. When I asked about dual covenant you failed to answer.

I thought I made myself clear from the moment I made my first post on this topic.....and I have done it even after that.

Where in Zech 14 is anything about a millenium mentioned?

Here's another question I would like you to answer me, the one underlined in reference to your statement above.
Is that how you come to a conclusion about a matter? Just because the world Millennium is not mentioned that by itself means it is not. One should be able to read and understand and recognize what it is that they are reading about. One could argue that since the world Trinity is not in the Bible then it is a false doctrine. One could argue that since Christmas is not in the Bible then it is wrong to observe the birth of Jesus.

[No where. It's only coz you are assuming that Zech 14 is a description of the millenium that you think that. It's not scripture talking it's you.

Why would Christ have animal sacrifices going on when He was the last sacrifice ever needed? Are we gonna be stoning people to death for braking the law again and wearing skull caps and tzitzit and wotnot in the blissful millenium?

Don't.....make....no....sense Bazz.

Zech 14 is describing the early stage of the millennium. Remember, there is duality in Bible prophecy.

 

[Bazz1040]

Obviously not talking about the dead Bazzmeister. But everyone who is living will see Him:

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and
they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
because of him. Even so, Amen.​

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.​

26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you,
Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.​

3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also
appear with him in glory.​

You did not really read or understood what I said, did you? Because nothing that I said went against those scriptures. Do you believe that every Christian that will be alive will be outside? Do you think that they will know the very day and minute Jesus will appear? When Jesus returns it will be a terrible time for Christians......some will be in prison and will not be in a position to see Jesus immediately, (I am repeating myself here) but will be changed and then ascend to meet Jesus. Some will be asleep (the world is not flat) because it will be night in their part of the world......they too will no doubt will be awaken by the Great trumpet sound, and immediately be changed, without even seeing Jesus, then ascend to meet Him.

I wouldn't count on being glorified before you see Jesus in the clouds Bazz.

​

Show me in the Bible where it says one must see Jesus first before a person can be glorified.

 

[Strangelove]

No offense intended here but is English your first language? I ask this because I did not say what you are saying.....go back and read what I said.

I just re-read it and my answer stands. If you wanna clarify you're question then you can do that.

And I asked you to prove to me in the book of Zech that mountain in that verse or chapter is a metaphor.

Prove it's not a metaphor.

Herod was simply a figure head......he was not a true king in the sense of what a king is. Herod was himself a subject of the Romans and Roman Empire. So Judah was not a true kingdom. All the Jews were subjects and a conquered people; a shadow of their former glory.

I don't accept that explanation. He was a King. Recognized as a king, had Kingly power over His subjects and was part of a royal line that all ruled the kingdom. The fact that Rome had power over him doesn't change that fact. Empires are made up of Kingdoms. And Kingdoms have Kings. End of story. there was a kingdom there and a king.

What king or prime minister in the world today doesn't answer to someone higher up? Does it stop them from holding their postion?

If the disciples meant the New Jerusalem they would not say restore the kingdom. Restoring means, return to its original or usable and functioning condition. The New Jerusalem is New, so it would not be referred as restore or restoring. And the kingdom of God is a literal kingdom and not just something in one mind. The disciples thought Jesus was going to set up the kingdom, which is why they did not expect Jesus to die.

You answer this in your next quote:

How do you split a kingdom in half without involving half of the people? Can one split the U.S in half with only a hand full of those in the government or a fraction of the citizens? I mean if a million Americans were to leave the U.S and decide to form another government elsewhere, would that divide the Nation or it’s government? And where in the New Testament is this mentioned? The gentiles were never part of the Jewish Nation. And the Jewish Nation was never the kingdom of Jesus. Jesus Himself said that His kingdom was not of this world.

So were they asking about a physical or spiritual Kingdom?

You are avoiding my question. I am going to ask you one last time. How do you know the reason why they did not mentioned it is the reason you are saying it is? Please answer that question. Don't tell me about who is right or wrong, just answer the question underlined.

How do you know the reason why they did not mentioned it is NOT the reason I am saying it is?

What do you think is the reason they omitted Zech 14 from their descriptions of the 2nd advent?

I thought I made myself clear from the moment I made my first post on this topic.....and I have done it even after that.

Maybe you did but why do you want to make me trawl through 10 pages when you could just tell me.

Pre-trib rapture Yes or No?

Here's another question I would like you to answer me, the one underlined in reference to your statement above.
Is that how you come to a conclusion about a matter? Just because the world Millennium is not mentioned that by itself means it is not. One should be able to read and understand and recognize what it is that they are reading about. One could argue that since the world Trinity is not in the Bible then it is a false doctrine. One could argue that since Christmas is not in the Bible then it is wrong to observe the birth of Jesus.

No. It's a combination of many things. things which we are discussing at length.

Zech 14 is describing the early stage of the millennium. Remember, there is duality in Bible prophecy.

So is the animal sacrifices bit 'dual prophecy'? A metaphor? can you prove it?

 

[Strangelove]

You did not really read or understood what I said, did you? Because nothing that I said went against those scriptures. Do you believe that every Christian that will be alive will be outside? Do you think that they will know the very day and minute Jesus will appear? When Jesus returns it will be a terrible time for Christians......some will be in prison and will not be in a position to see Jesus immediately, (I am repeating myself here) but will be changed and then ascend to meet Jesus. Some will be asleep (the world is not flat) because it will be night in their part of the world......they too will no doubt will be awaken by the Great trumpet sound, and immediately be changed, without even seeing Jesus, then ascend to meet Him.

Scripture says EVERY eye will see Him. You say many will not see Him......



.......I'll go with scripture.

 

[Bazz1040]

I just re-read it and my answer stands. If you wanna clarify you're question then you can do that.

For some reason you are twisting my question. Let me ask it again, show me in the book of Zechariah where mount olive is a metaphor other than you saying it is? Stay with me here, I am not asking you to go to another part of the Bible to prove anything.....stay in Zechariah and prove your point.....do you understand now?

I don't accept that explanation. He was a King. Recognized as a king, had Kingly power over His subjects and was part of a royal line that all ruled the kingdom. The fact that Rome had power over him doesn't change that fact. Empires are made up of Kingdoms. And Kingdoms have Kings. End of story. there was a kingdom there and a king.

What king or prime minister in the world today doesn't answer to someone higher up? Does it stop them from holding their postion?




You answer this in your next quote:

A true king answers to no one......except God. But once they are defeated in a war they simply become a shell or a figure head....having no real power and can be disposed at the will of the one he must answer to. So Judah as far as I know in the New Testament was not called a kingdom.

So were they asking about a physical or spiritual Kingdom?

They were asking for as they said it a restoring of the kingdom of Israel.....to how it was say under king Solomon for example. They were unconverted men, they knew nothing about spiritual matters and what Jesus was doing, until after there conversion.

How do you know the reason why they did not mentioned it is NOT the reason I am saying it is?

What do you think is the reason they omitted Zech 14 from their descriptions of the 2nd advent?

Again, you have not answered my question. Answer my question then I will address yours.

Maybe you did but why do you want to make me trawl through 10 pages when you could just tell me.

Pre-trib rapture Yes or No?

I am not a believer in the rapture.......when Jesus returns it will be visible and the saints will ascend for all to see.

So is the animal sacrifices bit 'dual prophecy'? A metaphor? can you prove it?

I am still waiting for you to answer my question.

 

[Bazz1040]

Scripture says EVERY eye will see Him. You say many will not see Him......



.......I'll go with scripture.

You have a problem with comprehension (which is why I question your ability to understand the English language properly), because I never said many will not see Him. I said, some will not see Him right away because they will be in prison, asleep, or inside a building, but they will be changed and then ascend to meet Him. Once they ascend, then they will see Him.......understand now?

The Bible is not a Book that addresses all situations, circumstances or events......where will everyone be at, living or doing. It deals with the overall picture.

 

[Strangelove]

For some reason you are twisting my question. Let me ask it again, show me in the book of Zechariah where mount olive is a metaphor other than you saying it is? Stay with me here, I am not asking you to go to another part of the Bible to prove anything.....stay in Zechariah and prove your point.....do you understand now?

Sure this is from Zech 14:

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,​

Strong's concordance:

Original Word: הָר
Transliteration: har
Phonetic Spelling: (har)
Short Definition: hill

A shortened form of harar; a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively)

There you go, that shows (from Zech) that mountain can be a metaphor. Ok?

A true king answers to no one......except God. But once they are defeated in a war they simply become a shell or a figure head....having no real power and can be disposed at the will of the one he must answer to. So Judah as far as I know in the New Testament was not called a kingdom.

If he's a King then theres a Kingdom. And the Pharisees were behind him basically controlling things from behind the scenes. So the mountain can represent this ruling powers strength over the dominion that they had influence over (the kingdom) and they did have real power, it would be silly to say that the royalty and his minions didn't have a say in the running of Jerusalem and the rest of the nation, kingdom, people whatever you want to call it. He ordered people around plenty in the NT.

And he's called the King of Judea:

1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea,

If he's King of Judea then it follows that Judea is his knigdom.​

And Jesus totally shook up this power structure that controlled religion and gave people two choices. The new covenant or the old.

They were asking for as they said it a restoring of the kingdom of Israel.....to how it was say under king Solomon for example. They were unconverted men, they knew nothing about spiritual matters and what Jesus was doing, until after there conversion.

Ok no probs, so maybe they knew they had a rubbish kingdom under Herod and the Romans and wanted to restore the kingdom........which actually Lexiccon's as reconstitute...which infact means to provide with a new structure.

So you see, by asking to restore the kingdom it doesn't have to mean bring something back that's not there. It can just mean to change the kingdom that wa there to something better.

Again, you have not answered my question. Answer my question then I will address yours.

I don't know why the apostles disregarded Zech 14. I don't know ok? Thats my answer. I can only think that they took it to be too shaky to be taken as the 2nd advent.

Why do you think they left it out?

I am not a believer in the rapture.......when Jesus returns it will be visible and the saints will ascend for all to see.

Huh? That is the rapture isn't it? When we're taken into the clouds?:

Aaaaaaaaanyway. It's the timing of it that I specifically asked you about. In you're opinion will it be pre trib or post-trib or what?

I am still waiting for you to answer my question.

What question is that mate?

 

[Strangelove]

You have a problem with comprehension (which is why I question your ability to understand the English language properly), because I never said many will not see Him. I said, some will not see Him right away because they will be in prison, asleep, or inside a building, but they will be changed and then ascend to meet Him. Once they ascend, then they will see Him.......understand now?

The Bible is not a Book that addresses all situations, circumstances or events......where will everyone be at, living or doing. It deals with the overall picture.

Nope. It still doesn't work Bazz. All the srciptures say that everyone on Earth will see Him coming. That means will see his arrival. So that means everyone will see Him right away.

If they are inside at the time than they will go outside. If they are sleeping they will wake up after the great shout and trumpet. If they are in prison then Jesus will make sure that the Holy Spirit works in the heart of the jailer to free them or take them to a window. Does Jesus have the ability to do that?

And we know that it matters not what part of the world you are in when he comes coz His coming is going to be all across the sky from east to west. Viewable from all round the globe.

Do you think that Jesus would let any of His believers miss any of the glory of His second coming?

I don't think so. I think we're all entitled to catch the whole show.

 

[Alabaster]

I want to take a walk through Zechariah 14 and show how on so many points that it cannot be showing the First Advent of the Messiah Jesus.


Zechariah 14

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

This above portion describes an attack on Jerusalem, Jerusalem will be taken. And half it's population will be taken away as captives.

People might say this is a prophecy about what happened to Jerusalem in 70AD but it cannot be because Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70AD and all its people where driven into exile.

Zechariah 14


3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.

After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD Jesus did not come and fight against the Roman Destroyers of Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14


4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Makinga very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

This cannot be a description of the first advent of Jesus because Jesus came and was risen and assended into Heaven 40 years before the destruction of Israel. Apart from the fact that nothing happened to the Mount of olives during the time Jesus was alive.

Zechariah 14


5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

There was no Mountain valley that reached as far as Azal during the time of Jesus or during the time of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Zechariah 14


Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

The Lord Jesus did not Come with ALL the saints on His first Advent. This is actually in alignment with The prophecies of the Book of Revelation about Jesus coming to earth with His resurrected/raptured saints

.Zechariah 14


6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.

This section of scripture can be used to describe the happenings on the Day of the Messiah's execution. But that execution happened 40 years before the destruction of Jerusalem. Zech 14 is describing that happening after Jerusalem has been attacked. The darkening of the Day matches the Prophecies of the Book of Revelation about the day being darkened on the Day of the Messiah's Return.

Zechariah 14


8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.

Of course one can symbolise the above portion of scripture. But it seems more suited to a literal interpretation. Why would spiritual water be described as only flowing east and west and towards the eastern and western Sea's. It even gives seasons when this will occur, summer and winter.

Zechariah 14


9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,â€
And His name one.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

There was no change in the topography of Israel during the time of the Messiah's first Advent. No great plain was made and Jerusalem was not thrusted up by great tectonic movements. In the Book of Revelation however it is predicted that a great earthquake will strike the world the greatest ever seen since man was on the world. Such an earthquake could and will cause such dramatic changes to the earth’s surface.

Zechariah 14


11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

40 years after The Messiah's first advent Jerusalem did face destruction. And there was no safety for it's inhabitents. Only starvation and death.

Zechariah 14


12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;

Nothing like this ever happened to the Roman occupiers of Israel during the time of the Messiah's return. But we are told in the Book of Revelation that on the day of the second coming of the Messiah as great army massed on the pains of meggedo will face utter destruction.

Zechariah 14



14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.

The Roman empire never sent all its gold and silver and wealth to Jerusalem after it's destruction of 70AD.

Zechariah 14


15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Clearly the Romans never went to Jerusalem year to year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. But apart from that during the 1000 year Kingdom who says this feast cannot be celebrated as a Memorial to the Day of the return of the Messiah. Did not Jesus Himself establish a Memorial on the last Passover He celebrated? Do we not break bread and drink wine in Memory of His act of Atonement for us. And no, true Christians do not sacrifice Jesus again each time they do this. that’s a "tradition of men" that has nothing to do with the true memorial Jesus established at His last supper.

Zechariah 14


17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Once again the above prophecy never came true upon the first advent of the Messiah. There where no plagues like the one described where peoples tongues and eyes dissolved in their heads, nor where there droughts because people would not come up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zechariah 14


20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD†shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]So, there are many prophecies in Zech 14 that both disqualify it as being about the times of the First Advent of the Messiah. Indeed the same prophecies lean far more towards the Second Advent of the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Alabaster]

Nope. It still doesn't work Bazz. All the srciptures say that everyone on Earth will see Him coming. That means will see his arrival. So that means everyone will see Him right away.

If they are inside at the time than they will go outside. If they are sleeping they will wake up after the great shout and trumpet. If they are in prison then Jesus will make sure that the Holy Spirit works in the heart of the jailer to free them or take them to a window. Does Jesus have the ability to do that?

And we know that it matters not what part of the world you are in when he comes coz His coming is going to be all across the sky from east to west. Viewable from all round the globe.

Do you think that Jesus would let any of His believers miss any of the glory of His second coming?

I don't think so. I think we're all entitled to catch the whole show.

The problem with that is, that the Bride will be coming with Him. Are you of the Bride of Christ?

 

[Bazz1040]

Sure this is from Zech 14:

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,​

Strong's concordance:

Original Word: הָר
Transliteration: har
Phonetic Spelling: (har)
Short Definition: hill

A shortened form of harar; a mountain or range of hills (sometimes used figuratively)

There you go, that shows (from Zech) that mountain can be a metaphor. Ok?

First thing, it says sometimes. Second it is speaking in a general term that mountain in the Bible sometimes is figurative.....The Hebrew word "Har" is not a word that is used only in Zech. So you still have not shown me undeniable proof that Mount Olive is figurative. You will never find in any part of the Bible where Mount Olive is metaphor for Judah.

If he's a King then theres a Kingdom. And the Pharisees were behind him basically controlling things from behind the scenes. So the mountain can represent this ruling powers strength over the dominion that they had influence over (the kingdom) and they did have real power, it would be silly to say that the royalty and his minions didn't have a say in the running of Jerusalem and the rest of the nation, kingdom, people whatever you want to call it. He ordered people around plenty in the NT.

And he's called the King of Judea:

1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea,​

If he's King of Judea then it follows that Judea is his knigdom.​

And Jesus totally shook up this power structure that controlled religion and gave people two choices. The new covenant or the old.

If Judah was a true kingdom it would not be a subjected to the Romans, and the disciples would not have asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom. One does not restore something if it was not lost. It is silly to tell a person, I am going to restore your house though the house is in the same condition it was when it was first built.

Ok no probs, so maybe they knew they had a rubbish kingdom under Herod and the Romans and wanted to restore the kingdom........which actually Lexiccon's as reconstitute...which infact means to provide with a new structure.

So you see, by asking to restore the kingdom it doesn't have to mean bring something back that's not there. It can just mean to change the kingdom that wa there to something better.

A new structure means to provide what is not there.......what is there is the old....it is just a shell of its former glory. To restore something one does not use what is there, because what is there is old. And the fact that something was, means that it is not now the state it should be and needs to be restored.

I don't know why the apostles disregarded Zech 14. I don't know ok? Thats my answer. I can only think that they took it to be too shaky to be taken as the 2nd advent.

Why do you think they left it out?

You still did not answer my question. I did not ask you why the apostles disregarded Zech 14, because I don’t expect you to know that. I asked you what you should know, but I am not going to repeat it because I know that you will never answer the question. Sort of remind me of the Pharisees (I am not saying you are a pharisee), when Jesus asked them a question and because they did not want to incriminate themselves, they said they did not know, to which Jesus replied, neither will I tell you by who's authority I do these things.

Huh? That is the rapture isn't it? When we're taken into the clouds?:

Aaaaaaaaanyway. It's the timing of it that I specifically asked you about. In you're opinion will it be pre trib or post-trib or what?





What question is that mate?

The one that I mentioned above. But anyway, I am ending this merry-go-round question dodging discussion.....I won't waste anymore time.

 

[Strangelove]

First thing, it says sometimes. Second it is speaking in a general term that mountain in the Bible sometimes is figurative.....The Hebrew word "Har" is not a word that is used only in Zech. So you still have not shown me undeniable proof that Mount Olive is figurative. You will never find in any part of the Bible where Mount Olive is metaphor for Judah.

Yeah sometimes it can mean kingdom. And this may be one of those times. Show me undeniable proof that it's not metaphorical. You can't too.

If Judah was a true kingdom it would not be a subjected to the Romans, and the disciples would not have asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom. One does not restore something if it was not lost. It is silly to tell a person, I am going to restore your house though the house is in the same condition it was when it was first built.

So you admit that you can restore a house. And that means that the house is there already, you're just restoring it. Same with restoring a kingdom. It's there it just needs to be spruced up. It doesn't imply that there was no kingdom to begin with. And Herod being able to send troops out and kill people around his land shows that he had power over his kingdom.

A new structure means to provide what is not there.......what is there is the old....it is just a shell of its former glory. To restore something one does not use what is there, because what is there is old. And the fact that something was, means that it is not now the state it should be and needs to be restored.

Yeah the structure is new. But the structure is not the kingdom. The structure is the way the existing kingdom is run. Honestly you're not making any sense here. When you restore a car are you working with a car that's already there? Yes. When you restore a house are you building a completely new house? No your working with the old one.

You still did not answer my question. I did not ask you why the apostles disregarded Zech 14, because I don’t expect you to know that. I asked you what you should know

You asked me how do I know that the apostles disregarded zech 14 for the same reason I do!

I said I don't know! What more do you want from me??! Lolz. I said my best guess is becasue of all the reasons I've stated in this thread.

The one that I mentioned above.

I lost track.

But anyway, I am ending this merry-go-round question dodging discussion.....I won't waste anymore time.

Oh ok. But remember...you've got one single scripture saying that Jesus is standing on the Mt. of Olives at some point in history. Not saying He comes out of the sky and descends ONTO the Mt......just that He's standing there. Could be 1st advent, could be second.

Meanwhile I've given you numorous scriptures which can only pertain to the second advent that never, ever mention Jesus setting foot on old Earth again and continually talk about Jesus in the sky, clouds and heaven. They even talk about Him descending and then we STILL meet Him in the clouds.

 

[Strangelove]

The problem with that is, that the Bride will be coming with Him. Are you of the Bride of Christ?

What do you mean? Explain.

What scripture are you talking about?

Isn't New Jerusalem the Bride?

 

[Strangelove]

Zechariah 14


12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;

Nothing like this ever happened to the Roman occupiers of Israel during the time of the Messiah's return. But we are told in the Book of Revelation that on the day of the second coming of the Messiah as great army massed on the pains of meggedo will face utter destruction.

Why does it have to be about the Romans? Any future evet after the first advent qualifies as being suitable for this prophecy. Right up until the present day and even into the future. It might not have happened yet.

And also it could be metaphorical. Flesh dissolving could mean not doing evil....eyes dissolving could mean not seeing evil...tongue dissolving could mean not speaking evil. Theres a million different ways to read into these highly allegorical passages.

Zechariah 14

14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.

The Roman empire never sent all its gold and silver and wealth to Jerusalem after it's destruction of 70AD.

Maybe it's talking about all the gold that the RCC has collected being under the ultimate control of the Whore of Babylon who controls all the nations through finance?

Zechariah 14


15 Such also shall be the plague
On the horse and the mule,
On the camel and the donkey,
And on all the cattle that will be in those camps.
So shall this plague be.
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Clearly the Romans never went to Jerusalem year to year to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. But apart from that during the 1000 year Kingdom who says this feast cannot be celebrated as a Memorial to the Day of the return of the Messiah. Did not Jesus Himself establish a Memorial on the last Passover He celebrated? Do we not break bread and drink wine in Memory of His act of Atonement for us. And no, true Christians do not sacrifice Jesus again each time they do this. that’s a "tradition of men" that has nothing to do with the true memorial Jesus established at His last supper.

'Everyone who is left' could just mean all the believers who go up to pay homage to Jesus at the Jerusalem. Why does it have to be Romans?

Zechariah 14


17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Once again the above prophecy never came true upon the first advent of the Messiah. There where no plagues like the one described where peoples tongues and eyes dissolved in their heads, nor where there droughts because people would not come up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Maybe it's a drought of the spirit. Of the living waters?
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]So, there are many prophecies in Zech 14 that both disqualify it as being about the times of the First Advent of the Messiah. Indeed the same prophecies lean far more towards the Second Advent of the Messiah Jesus.

Yeah but I've come up with moderatley adequate explanations for most of that stuff and thats just from doing a tiny amount of study on it. If I really dug into the history books I could probably find events that would fit better. And there could still be events happening in the future, or even stuff that got lost down the memory hole of history that could fit to those prophecy's. Not everything that happened in history is in the books.

All I'm really saying is that one verse about Jesus standing on the mount of olives could be prophesying the first advent with it's spiritual division of the Jews.

And also the word 'feet' as used in that verse actually translates to 'be able to endure'?? Which just confuses things even more.

For the rest of the verses in the chapter, they could mean a whole bunch of stuff spiritual or physical at any point in history.

Plus isn't the timing all mixed up if Zech 14 fits Revelation? First thing that happens is all the nations being gathered against Jerusalem. Are you saying that this event is armageddon?

Doc.

 

[Alabaster]

What do you mean? Explain.

What scripture are you talking about?

Isn't New Jerusalem the Bride?

The Bride will be taken to her wedding to the Bridegroom while Jacob's Trouble takes place, for that time is only for God to finish up with Israel. Jesus will come and bring His Bride with Him, all dressed in white linen and blessed with her rewards and ready to rule and judge the nations.

The New Jerusalem is the capital city of the new Earth, where we, the Bride will live forever with God.

Jude 1:14-15
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.â€

Revelation 20:4-6
4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Strangelove]

The Bride will be taken to her wedding to the Bridegroom while Jacob's Trouble takes place, for that time is only for God to finish up with Israel. Jesus will come and bring His Bride with Him, all dressed in white linen and blessed with her rewards and ready to rule and judge the nations.

The New Jerusalem is the capital city of the new Earth, where we, the Bride will live forever with God.

I still don't see how this is relating to my post about how everyone living on Earth will see Christ coming in the clouds?

Everyone in every nation on Earth will see Him coming.

Are you refuting that?

 

[Alabaster]

I still don't see how this is relating to my post about how everyone living on Earth will see Christ coming in the clouds?

Everyone in every nation on Earth will see Him coming.

Are you refuting that?

Yes they will, but we won't be here if we know Jesus...we will be coming with Him.