How will the world explain the rapture?

[Bazz1040]

Well....you believe that Jesus, at His second advent will come OUT of heaven and land on the mount of Olives. And you have no scripture to back that up either. All you have is Zech 14 that says that one day He will stand on that mount....which we know He did, in person 500 years after the prophecy was given.
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I think you are being very dishonest and deceitful here. Did the mount of Olive divide in two when Jesus was on it the first time? Did Jesus descend on the mount of Olive 500 years ago? Does not the verse say He will descend on it and it will divide in two? Just because it never did the first time He was on it does not mean that it is not literal. Being on the mountain does not mean He descened on it. The problem is that you make assumptions about things and then come up with your own idea as to what it is…….you don’t seem to let the Bible teach you, but instead declare something to be a metaphor because it is a lot easier to do that.

None of the apostles paid any attention about Zech 14 being a prophecy of the second advent so why do you?

How do you know that the reason why they never mentioned it is the reason you are saying?

I'm not dismissing I'm just considering the notion that it could be talking about the first advent. And it does fit the event if you take the verses metaphorically.

And that's your problem.....once you assume in your mind that it is metaphor, then that is what you will believe. So anyone that says different you will reject it because if you started to think that it might be literal then all the other things to which it hangs on would collapse.

Hang on??? Hasn't Satan already been bound up at this point? How can there be resistance that can only come by the work of evil. Evil has been banished until after the 'millenium'. There is NO deceit in the world whatsoever! It doesnt make any sense.

Why would Jesus preside over animal sacrifices?[/LEFT]

Jesus is called the Great High Priest as well as King, and those who will rule with Him will be called priest. And what is a priest? Did not the priest administer sacrifices? Just because it does not make sense to you does not mean it will not be done.......it is not your, mine or any man’s plan.....it is God's.


You assume that just because Satan will be bound that all of a sudden everyone will obey.....but not so. There is a thing called free will. We are talking about people that have been accustom to doing things the way they have been doing all their lives, so not everyone will gladly submit. This is why God will show those Nations that are reluctant that it is not business as usual……they will not receive all His blessings while remaining in rebellion against Him.

Is Jesus King now Bazz? Or are we waiting for Him to be King?

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The question was never if Jesus was King. My statement and what Jesus tells us is that at this point in time He is not ruling from His throne but His Father's, and that His throne will be on that Earth and that as He said, those that overcome will sit with Him on it. And we have established that we are not talking necessarily a literal throne, but the right to rule on the Earth. The Bible also tells us that the saints will live and rule on the Earth as kings and priest. And we know that we will not rule on the Earth without Jesus. So since we will sit with Jesus on His throne when He returns both He and we will rule on the Earth at His second coming. Part of understanding the Bible is ability to put scriptures together to get a good picture.

 

[Bazz1040]

Yes but don't we have the technology to make it LOOK like the false messiah comes out of heaven?

Space station? Lazers? Plans for giant mirrors in space to stop global warming? Project BLUEBEAM? Fake alien invasion?

Lolz...I sound like Johny Bothright now.

No amount of technology can raise people that have been dead for thousands of years (the prophets and Christians of the past) and change mortal (Christians that are alive) into immortal. So only a foolish person would be fooled by man's trickeries…..if a person is fooled then such a person was never of God….they were never converted. The Bible tells us that it is not possible for the elect to be deceived by the false christ and all that will come with it.

 

[Bazz1040]

The part in red is a description of the mannor. Yes.

Mount olive is a description of the location. Which has nothing to do with the mannor.

If I was told that by the angels I would be thinking....Ok....I'm keeping my eyes on the sky and clouds coz thats the manner our Lord is returning. Through the air. As opposed to on a boat or erupting from a volcano or whatever. It's the MODE of transport.

You highlight that part because that fits into your idea of what it means in like manner.....but it is not limited to that, it includes where He ascended from as well.....mount olive.

So the disciples would say, we saw Him ascended from this mountain to Heaven and so He will return to this mountain from Heaven.

 

[Alabaster]

So there is killing and war and drought and plagues and animal sacrifices going on in the blissful millenial reign?

No, the Millennium is a reign of peace, with the Prince of Peace on the throne, reigning with perfect justice.

Is Jesus King now or is He coming to be King?

He is the king in our hearts, but He has yet to come to reign physically over the nations.

 

[Bazz1040]

That belief seems to be held by Pre-tribulation believers. From my perspective it is not a steadfast Rapture belief. Unfortunately the only Rapture belief given mass media coverage has been the pre-tribulation position. People want to believe it so it is popular. This leads people to believe that Rapture belief is exclusively Pre-tribulation and all that goes with it. (including the disappearing part).

I have been on a few forums where someone will come out swinging against rapture because the only version they have ever head about is Pre-tribulation Rapture, It often takes some time to convince them that there are other interpretations of Rapture like post trib.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

From as far back as I can remember and have read by those themselves that taught the doctrine of the rapture, it was always about Christians disappearing into thin air as they went about their daily business. So I have never heard of any other. I wonder which one is the original version?

 

[Codger]

They wont have to explain what doesnt happen.
There is no pre trib rapture.Only a post trib gathering at the end of the world.

Is it possible that I am agreeing with you? - amazing will wonders never cease.

 

[Strangelove]

I think you are being very dishonest and deceitful here. Did the mount of Olive divide in two when Jesus was on it the first time?

YES it did....metaphorically. Do you accept that some prophecy is metaphorical or not? Or are you looking for a real whore sitting on a real beast in Rev?


You're going a little to far calling me dishonest and deceitful Bazz. I thought we were friends and Brothers talking about a very tricky subject.


In Zech 14...the mountain can allegorically represent a KINGDOM and that Kingdom of Judah DID split in two when Jesus came the first time. He tore down the old system and erected a new covenant and therefore divided the talmudic rabbinical Jews and those who followed that system, from the true believers in Moses, the Prophets and the TRUE Messiah! People in the valley had to choose which half of the mountain they would climb.

Did Jesus descend on the mount of Olive 500 years ago? Does not the verse say He will descend on it and it will divide in two? Just because it never did the first time He was on it does not mean that it is not literal. Being on the mountain does not mean He descened on it.

What bible are you reading?


My Bible says this:

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives
shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the
west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the
mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the
south.
​

My version doesn't say anything about descending. Does yours?


Stand >>>

5975. amad :::: To take ones stand, stand​

Original Word: עָמַד
Transliteration: amad
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-mad')
Short Definition: abide ​

Word Origin​

a prim. root​

Definition​

to take one's stand, stand​

NASB Word Usage​

abiding (1), act (1), appoint (2), appointed (15), arise (11), arisen (1), arose (3), attend* (1), attended (1), broke (1), changed (1), confirmed (2), continue (1), defend (2), delay (2), endure (5), endures (4), enduring (1), enter (1), entered (2), erected (1), establish (1), established (2), establishing (1), fixed (1), fulfill (1), gives stability (1), halt (1), halted (1), hung (6), join (1), last (1), living (1), make a stand (1), oppose (1), opposed (2), persists (1), place (1), placed (2), present (3), presented (1), presented* (1), propped (2), quake (1), raise (2), raised (1), refrain (1), rely (1), remain (5), remained (4), remains (5), replaces* (1), represent (1), resist* (1), restore (2), restored (2), retains (1), rise (2), rose (1), serve (1), served (3), served* (4), service* (3), serving (1), set (12), sets (3), stand (121), stand still (1), standing (67), standing upright (2), stands (15), station (1), stationed (8), stay (8), stayed (2), staying (1), stood (110), stood firm (1), stood still (11), stop (3), stopped (9), survives (1), take a stand (1), take their stand (1), took his stand (1), took their stand (1), wait (1), waited (1), withstand (1), withstand* (1), withstanding (1).​

Do you see any of these meanings for 'stand' to mean anything remotely like 'descend' or come down from above?​

The problem is that you make assumptions about things and then come up with your own idea as to what it is…….you don’t seem to let the Bible teach you, but instead declare something to be a metaphor because it is a lot easier to do that.

Where has the bible taught you that in Zech 14 Jesus has descended to the mountain from heaven?

How do you know that the reason why they never mentioned it is the reason you are saying?

LOLZ! So now you're saying that not only am I wrong but also the Apostles are wrong!!?? Maybe they didn't know how to study the OT? And only modern Christians starting with Schofield and Darby have figured out what Zech 14 really means? Come on Bazz.

And that's your problem.....once you assume in your mind that it is metaphor, then that is what you will believe. So anyone that says different you will reject it because if you started to think that it might be literal then all the other things to which it hangs on would collapse.

I told you I got nothing hanging on the theory that Jesus stays in the air until New Earth comes. Nothing at all. You obviously have though. The Pre-Trib Rapture maybe?

Jesus is called the Great High Priest as well as King, and those who will rule with Him will be called priest. And what is a priest? Did not the priest administer sacrifices?

Not the priests who were in Christ. No they didn't administer sacrifices. Do you sacrifice animals to Jesus? Christ was the last sacrifice ever needed. So why would Jesus be presiding over that? It goes directly against His teachings.

You assume that just because Satan will be bound that all of a sudden everyone will obey.....but not so. There is a thing called free will. We are talking about people that have been accustom to doing things the way they have been doing all their lives, so not everyone will gladly submit. This is why God will show those Nations that are reluctant that it is not business as usual……they will not receive all His blessings while remaining in rebellion against Him.

Uhm...no...all the corrective stuff happens before the '1000 years'. thats what Rev 19:19,20,21 describes.

​

​

The question was never if Jesus was King. My statement and what Jesus tells us is that at this point in time He is not ruling from His throne but His Father's, and that His throne will be on that Earth and that as He said, those that overcome will sit with Him on it. And we have established that we are not talking necessarily a literal throne, but the right to rule on the Earth. The Bible also tells us that the saints will live and rule on the Earth as kings and priest. And we know that we will not rule on the Earth without Jesus. So since we will sit with Jesus on His throne when He returns both He and we will rule on the Earth at His second coming. Part of understanding the Bible is ability to put scriptures together to get a good picture.

Oh but that IS my question to you. Is Jesus King of King and Lord of Lords right now and has been since His ascension......or are we waiting for him to rise to this level??

Whats it to be? King now or coming King?

He is without a doubt my King right now and has authority over Heaven AND Earth. How 'bout you?

 

[Strangelove]

No amount of technology can raise people that have been dead for thousands of years (the prophets and Christians of the past) and change mortal (Christians that are alive) into immortal.false christ and all that will come with it.

Who........said...........anything about technology raising the dead??

All I said was they have the technology to hoax an endtime descent of Jesus out of the sky.

So only a foolish person would be fooled by man's trickeries…..if a person is fooled then such a person was never of God….they were never converted. The Bible tells us that it is not possible for the elect to be deceived by the false christ and all that will come with it.

Ya foolish people will be fooled and also people who have been dumbed down by poisening and maybe also those who are absolutely certain of how Jesus is going to come down to Earth based on the interpretation of modern Bibles.

Are you gonna trust a TV feed of Jesus in Jerusalem or are you gonna book the first flight over there to see the Messiah in person?

 

[Strangelove]

You highlight that part because that fits into your idea of what it means in like manner.....but it is not limited to that, it includes where He ascended from as well.....mount olive.

So the disciples would say, we saw Him ascended from this mountain to Heaven and so He will return to this mountain from Heaven.

Bazz...I'm not the only person in the world who see's it this way. Many respected bible commentaries see no inference of the end location of Jesus' return in those verses.

Example:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

"In like manner ... - In clouds, as he ascended. See the Acts 1:9 note; 1 Thessalonians 4:16 note. This address was designed to comfort the disciples. Though their master and friend was taken from them, yet he was not removed forever. He would come again with similar majesty and glory to vindicate his people, and to tread his enemies under his feet. The design for which he will come will be to judge the world, Matthew 25. There will be an evident fitness and propriety in his coming"

No mention of the mount of olives there.

Even the commentaries that talk of the Mt. of Olives say that Jesus landing there is an 'opinion' or it 'may' happen according to Zech 14.

Example:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:

"shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven; he shall come in the same flesh, in the same human nature; he shall come in the clouds of heaven, and shall be attended with his mighty angels, as he now was; he shall descend himself in person, as he now ascended in person; and as he went up with a shout, and with the sound of a trumpet, see Psalm 47:5 so he shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God; and, it may be, he shall descend upon the very spot from whence he ascended; see Zechariah 14:4

 

[Strangelove]

No, the Millennium is a reign of peace, with the Prince of Peace on the throne, reigning with perfect justice.

So why does Zech 14 describe these things happening in the millenial reign?

He is the king in our hearts, but He has yet to come to reign physically over the nations.

Jesus' Kingdom is not a physical Kingdom so how does that work?

He had authority over Heaven and Earth since the Father sent Him at the 1st advent.

Revelation talks about the kingdoms of the world....ie..the fleshly Kingdoms, which Jesus has always has ultimate authority over, being taken away from Satan of whom jesus allowed to have some control and living under the rule of the Lord.

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in
heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the
kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever
and ever.

11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their
seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
​

11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art,
and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy
great power, and hast reigned.

Which was.....which is...and will be. Has reigned from the start. Then through His Son Jesus..and also will in the future. Always be King of Kings. It has always been His power and He has taken it to Him.​

 

[Alabaster]

So why does Zech 14 describe these things happening in the millenial reign?

There will be destruction when Jesus comes, that's why. He will rule with a rod of iron and punish evildoers. Once His government is set up, there will be 1000 years of peaceful rule.

Jesus' Kingdom is not a physical Kingdom so how does that work?

The spiritual kingdom will become a physical earthly kingdom, just as promised and described in many prophetic passages throughout the Bible.

 

[Bazz1040]

YES it did....metaphorically. Do you accept that some prophecy is metaphorical or not? Or are you looking for a real whore sitting on a real beast in Rev?

Zech is not Revelation.....we are not talking about the Beast and harlot in Revelation. A lot of what is written in Revelation is addressed in Daniel and certain parts of Matthew.

But what I would like you to do now is put out some evidence that would show that Zech 14 is a metaphor other than you saying it is? Don't tell me about other parts of the Bible; show me in Zech that would prove that what it is saying is a metaphor. Becasue somthing is a metaphor in one book does not mean it in another.

You're going a little to far calling me dishonest and deceitful Bazz. I thought we were friends and Brothers talking about a very tricky subject.

Pardon me but I did not get that impression every time I see you respond with LOLZ! Whenever I see someone responds when one is in a sincere discussion, and a person “laugh out loud” that tells me that that person has little to no respect for what the other person is saying. I have thought of ending the discussion the first time you responded with that, but I did not......but how you continue to respond will determine if I will end it here and now or not.

In Zech 14...the mountain can allegorically represent a KINGDOM and that Kingdom of Judah DID split in two when Jesus came the first time. He tore down the old system and erected a new covenant and therefore divided the talmudic rabbinical Jews and those who followed that system, from the true believers in Moses, the Prophets and the TRUE Messiah! People in the valley had to choose which half of the mountain they would climb.

It is not all the time when it says mountain it is symbolic. I have been studying the Bible for over three decades now, and have learnt that. So one needs to be very careful not to symbolize what is literal and make literal what is symbolic.

The question is was Judah a kingdom during the time of Jesus? Would you call a Nation that has been conquered and under the rule of another a kingdom? Which Jewish king was ruling over Judah when Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem? Did not the disciples asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom to Isreal? If it was a kingdom there would be no need to restore it, don't you think?

When you divide something in two it basically means you have two equal half. Now did half of the Jewish people in Judah believed Jesus and followed Him? How many the Bible said that believed Jesus? Does it not say about 120 people? So are you suggesting that there was a population of in total of 240 Jews in Judah? And even after Jesus ascended to Heaven, was it about half and what evidence would you have in the New Testament to prove it?

LOLZ! So now you're saying that not only am I wrong but also the Apostles are wrong!!?? Maybe they didn't know how to study the OT? And only modern Christians starting with Schofield and Darby have figured out what Zech 14 really means? Come on Bazz.

I am simply asking you a question. I never said anything about them being wrong, because an omission is not proof one way or the other. I just asked, how do you know if the reason why they did not mentioned it is the reason you are saying it? That is the question that I want you to answer.

I told you I got nothing hanging on the theory that Jesus stays in the air until New Earth comes. Nothing at all. You obviously have though. The Pre-Trib Rapture maybe?

And what evidence do you have for saying this? What have I said that would make you believe that I believe in the rapture?

Not the priests who were in Christ. No they didn't administer sacrifices. Do you sacrifice animals to Jesus? Christ was the last sacrifice ever needed. So why would Jesus be presiding over that? It goes directly against His teachings.

I am not talking about how it is now.......the scriptures tell us that the Feast of Tabernacle will be kept during the millennium, and it does indicate that some form of animal sacrifice will be observed.

Zechariah 14:16-21 (KJV)
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Oh but that IS my question to you. Is Jesus King of King and Lord of Lords right now and has been since His ascension......or are we waiting for him to rise to this level??

Whats it to be? King now or coming King?

He is without a doubt my King right now and has authority over Heaven AND Earth. How 'bout you?

That question is really irrelevant to my point but I will answer it. Jesus IS King right now, but as I stated before, Jesus said He was sitting on His Father's throne. In other words, He is ruling on behalf of His Father. The throne in Heaven belongs to His Father. Jesus' throne will be on the Earth.

Let me refresh your memory of what Jesus said in case you forgot.

Revelation 3:21 (ESV)
21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Notice that Jesus said He over came and is sitting on His Father's throne. If the throne that He is sitting on was His He would have said it was His. Or He would have said, those who over come will sit on this throne with me.

The reason why Jesus said this is because Heaven was never promise to us, but the Earth was. Our place of authority was and is the Earth and by extension the universe.....not heaven. We are simply citizens of Heaven but on the Earth we are kings.

 

[Bazz1040]

Who........said...........anything about technology raising the dead??

All I said was they have the technology to hoax an endtime descent of Jesus out of the sky.
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Because the raising of the dead in Christ is one sure proof of the true Messiah. If you don't see Christians that have been buried in the cemetery rising from their grave you know the one claiming to be the messiah is false. If one does not see Christians rising from the ground or if you are a truly converted and did not have a transformation in body, you know the one claiming to be the messiah is false.

Ya foolish people will be fooled and also people who have been dumbed down by poisening and maybe also those who are absolutely certain of how Jesus is going to come down to Earth based on the interpretation of modern Bibles.

Are you gonna trust a TV feed of Jesus in Jerusalem or are you gonna book the first flight over there to see the Messiah in person?

I would not need to because I would feel my body transformed from mortal to immortal.....I would immediately know whether I was watching the news on TV or not.

 

[Bazz1040]

Bazz...I'm not the only person in the world who see's it this way. Many respected bible commentaries see no inference of the end location of Jesus' return in those verses.

Example:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

"In like manner ... - In clouds, as he ascended. See the Acts 1:9 note; 1 Thessalonians 4:16 note. This address was designed to comfort the disciples. Though their master and friend was taken from them, yet he was not removed forever. He would come again with similar majesty and glory to vindicate his people, and to tread his enemies under his feet. The design for which he will come will be to judge the world, Matthew 25. There will be an evident fitness and propriety in his coming"

No mention of the mount of olives there.

Even the commentaries that talk of the Mt. of Olives say that Jesus landing there is an 'opinion' or it 'may' happen according to Zech 14.

Example:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:

"shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven; he shall come in the same flesh, in the same human nature; he shall come in the clouds of heaven, and shall be attended with his mighty angels, as he now was; he shall descend himself in person, as he now ascended in person; and as he went up with a shout, and with the sound of a trumpet, see Psalm 47:5 so he shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God; and, it may be, he shall descend upon the very spot from whence he ascended; see Zechariah 14:4

Looks to me that they are saying what I am saying. Barns Note said, In like manner ... - In clouds, as he ascended, but you higlighted only the part that said, In clouds.

And Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible also said the same thing.....He descend.

he shall come in the same flesh, in the same human nature; he shall come in the clouds of heaven, and shall be attended with his mighty angels, as he now was; he shall descend himself in person, as he now ascended in person

But you claim He will remain in the sky. So you only help to prove what I have been saying....thanks.

 

[Adstar]

From as far back as I can remember and have read by those themselves that taught the doctrine of the rapture, it was always about Christians disappearing into thin air as they went about their daily business. So I have never heard of any other. I wonder which one is the original version?

The Bibles Version is the Original Version.

And it does not say anything about people disappearing. It just says they are taken or caught up. People have added the word disappear into their interpretation.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

Zech is not Revelation.....we are not talking about the Beast and harlot in Revelation. A lot of what is written in Revelation is addressed in Daniel and certain parts of Matthew.

But what I would like you to do now is put out some evidence that would show that Zech 14 is a metaphor other than you saying it is? Don't tell me about other parts of the Bible; show me in Zech that would prove that what it is saying is a metaphor. Becasue somthing is a metaphor in one book does not mean it in another.

Huh? So every metaphorical verse in the bible needs to be backed up and confirmed as metaphorical somewhere else in the bible?? Thats ridiculous. Are you challenging me to find a metaphorical verse that you adhere to that isn't 'confirmed' by another passage?

It is not all the time when it says mountain it is symbolic. I have been studying the Bible for over three decades now, and have learnt that. So one needs to be very careful not to symbolize what is literal and make literal what is symbolic.

I never said every time a mountain is mentioned it's metaphoric. I just said that Zech 14 could be a metaphoric split of a Kingdom.

The question is was Judah a kingdom during the time of Jesus? Would you call a Nation that has been conquered and under the rule of another a kingdom? Which Jewish king was ruling over Judah when Jesus walked the streets of Jerusalem?

Wasn't Herod the King at the time of Jesus?

2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of
Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to
Jerusalem,

King of what? Isreal? Judah? I don't know but a king is not a king without a kingdom.​

Did not the disciples asked Jesus if He was going to restore the kingdom to Isreal? If it was a kingdom there would be no need to restore it, don't you think?

I'm pretty sure they were talking about New Jerusalem or the spiritual Kingdom of God in our hearts don't you? Or do you think the disciples were expecting a physical Kingdom with an Earthly ruler like the Pharisees wanted?

When you divide something in two it basically means you have two equal half. Now did half of the Jewish people in Judah believed Jesus and followed Him? How many the Bible said that believed Jesus? Does it not say about 120 people? So are you suggesting that there was a population of in total of 240 Jews in Judah? And even after Jesus ascended to Heaven, was it about half and what evidence would you have in the New Testament to prove it?

The people wern't split in half the Kingdom was. And the people in the valley had a choice of which side of the mountain they wanted to go to. Why do exact numbers matter? Do you have exact numbers of who followed who? Didn't gentiles come to Jerusalem to join the Kingdom of Christ? Do they count too?

I am simply asking you a question. I never said anything about them being wrong, because an omission is not proof one way or the other. I just asked, how do you know if the reason why they did not mentioned it is the reason you are saying it? That is the question that I want you to answer.

Oh ok....so...yes it's possible that the Apostles made the same mistake that I'm making. So basically it's me and the Apostles Vs you and Darby and Schofield and the modern dispensationalist crowd.

None of them say anything about Jesus landing on Earth and none refer to Zech 14 as the second advent. And I'm going the same way coz I respect them more than modern bible versions that distort the truth.

And what evidence do you have for saying this? What have I said that would make you believe that I believe in the rapture?

I don't believe it, just a guess. You could clear it up by simply stating plainly if you are pre-trib or not. When I asked about dual covenant you failed to answer.

I am not talking about how it is now.......the scriptures tell us that the Feast of Tabernacle will be kept during the millennium, and it does indicate that some form of animal sacrifice will be observed.

Where in Zech 14 is anything about a millenium mentioned?

No where. It's only coz you are assuming that Zech 14 is a description of the millenium that you think that. It's not scripture talking it's you.

Why would Christ have animal sacrifices going on when He was the last sacrifice ever needed? Are we gonna be stoning people to death for braking the law again and wearing skull caps and tzitzit and wotnot in the blissful millenium?

Don't.....make....no....sense Bazz.

 

[Strangelove]

Because the raising of the dead in Christ is one sure proof of the true Messiah. If you don't see Christians that have been buried in the cemetery rising from their grave you know the one claiming to be the messiah is false. If one does not see Christians rising from the ground or if you are a truly converted and did not have a transformation in body, you know the one claiming to be the messiah is false.


I would not need to because I would feel my body transformed from mortal to immortal.....I would immediately know whether I was watching the news on TV or not.

Are you saying before you even see the Messiah you're body will be glorified?

 

[Bazz1040]

The Bibles Version is the Original Version.

And it does not say anything about people disappearing. It just says they are taken or caught up. People have added the word disappear into their interpretation.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I know what the Bible says, but the word rapture is not used. What I am talking about is which version of the word rapture was first used?

 

[Bazz1040]

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Are you saying before you even see the Messiah you're body will be glorified?

The Bible does not say in order for a Christian that is alive he or she has to see Jesus before they are changed. When Jesus returns it will not be a quite return.....it will be with a great sound like a trumpet, and the dead in Christ will rise first. I mean, if one needed to see Jesus, then how would the dead in Christ be raised from the grave in a glorified body? If a Christian is inside of a building or a prison without access to an outside window they would not see Jesus, right then and there.......they would see Him after they have been changed and ascend to meet Him. Our change is dependent on Jesus’ return, not on us immediately seeing Him.

 

[Strangelove]

Looks to me that they are saying what I am saying. Barns Note said, In like manner ... - In clouds, as he ascended, but you higlighted only the part that said, In clouds.

And Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible also said the same thing.....He descend.

he shall come in the same flesh, in the same human nature; he shall come in the clouds of heaven, and shall be attended with his mighty angels, as he now was; he shall descend himself in person, as he now ascended in person

But you claim He will remain in the sky. So you only help to prove what I have been saying....thanks.

I never said theat Jesus will not descend. Of course He is at the right hand of the Father now up in the 3rd Heaven and He has to descend down to the level of the sky. And when He's there I can see Him descending even further down to do a low level fly by when He's smiting the nations and stuff. There will be plenty of descending done I'm positive.

What there is no scriptural proof of however is that He will actually LAND on Earth!

24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto
the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.​

Why didn't that verse read thus:

24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the sky and landeth on the ground; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.​

East to west. Across the sky. Not Up and down friend.

26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you,
Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of
power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Silly old Jesus forgets to mention that He's gonna land on Earth too.
​

24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.

24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one
end of heaven to the other.

So He's gonna be in Heaven when He's collecting His elect. No landing required.
​

21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with
power and great glory.

21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift
up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

LOOK UP!! Thats where you need to keep you're eyes on the prize. Up in the sky. thats where redemption will be!
​

1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and
they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail
because of him. Even so, Amen.

With clouds. No landing.​

​

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead
in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we
ever be with the Lord.

Here we see the Lord Jesus DESCENDING in verse 4:16.

Then in the very next verse we see those caugh up meet Him......

Meet Him where???

...IN THE AIR!!!​

So He definately descends...but not down to Earth!

So theres plenty of scripture describing (without ANY doubt) the second coming and not a single mention of coming all the way down to Earth and landing. Plenty of talk of the sky, moving through the sky and descending in the sky (but not all the way down).

Now let's see all your scripture of the second coming that supports Jesus setting foot on this old Earth again.​