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wondering said:
If Paul tells us not to pass time with immoral persons,,,how are we to follow this rule if we're not allowed to judge who is immoral?
Click to expand...

Exactly...it's a question about institutional judgemental behavior and known sinful behaviors.
When a person continually engages in a particular sinful behavior (causing division, prostitution, stealing, and etc) and refuses to stop...you toss them out only allowing them back in once they repent (turn around and go the other way)
 
wondering said:
I agree that it doesn't say anything about anyone in particular.
And you don't have to believe Europe is atheist....
but it's true nonetheless.
Click to expand...




According to who or what? Europe itself isn't atheist. Britain has a lot of Christians living there and I think Catholicism is the major one because I do believe it's what the royal family follows.
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
According to who or what? Europe itself isn't atheist. Britain has a lot of Christians living there and I think Catholicism is the major one because I do believe it's what the royal family follows.
Click to expand...
Uhhhhh....not hardly.

The King/Queen is the head of the Church of England. A wholly separate denomination from Catholics. It does have some Calvinistic and Catholic roots but it's definitely not Catholic. At one time the Catholics killed those who were a part of the Church of England and vice versa. The trouble with the IRA (Irish Republican Army) is steeped in the division between the two churches. It's not the whole reason but they use this as a religious divide between the two sides.
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
According to who or what? Europe itself isn't atheist. Britain has a lot of Christians living there and I think Catholicism is the major one because I do believe it's what the royal family follows.
Click to expand...
Because a country is Catholic doesn't mean that they practice their religion.
Europe is mostly atheist. Christianity hardly exists here anymore.
People look to the govt for their needs...not God. Most countries are socialist in nature.
The Pope lives in Italy and the statistics are that less and less persons are going to church.
Many churches are empty of parishioners and are being closed down.
I remember how it used to be and I see how it is now.

Someone on this forum keeps telling me I should witness.
I do when I can and feel it's right.
But it's not an accepted thing to do and some might think I'm a little batty.
I'd do this only with someone I know very well.
People you don't know aren't interested in hearing about God.
You're lucky to live in such a Christian country.
I really miss it.
WHICH IS WHY I'M ON THIS FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
 
JohnDB said:
Uhhhhh....not hardly.

The King/Queen is the head of the Church of England. A wholly separate denomination from Catholics. It does have some Calvinistic and Catholic roots but it's definitely not Catholic. At one time the Catholics killed those who were a part of the Church of England and vice versa. The trouble with the IRA (Irish Republican Army) is steeped in the division between the two churches. It's not the whole reason but they use this as a religious divide between the two sides.
Click to expand...




Okay, I stand corrected then but that wasn't the point that I was trying to make anyways and what do you mean by not hardly?
 
wondering said:
Because a country is Catholic doesn't mean that they practice their religion.
Europe is mostly atheist. Christianity hardly exists here anymore.
People look to the govt for their needs...not God. Most countries are socialist in nature.
The Pope lives in Italy and the statistics are that less and less persons are going to church.
Many churches are empty of parishioners and are being closed down.
I remember how it used to be and I see how it is now.

Someone on this forum keeps telling me I should witness.
I do when I can and feel it's right.
But it's not an accepted thing to do and some might think I'm a little batty.
I'd do this only with someone I know very well.
People you don't know aren't interested in hearing about God.
You're lucky to live in such a Christian country.
I really miss it.
WHICH IS WHY I'M ON THIS FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
Click to expand...



A lot of what you said happens in America as well and we were founded as a Christian nation.
 
mozo1

The reason we question that of what you are teaching, especially about the two seeds and the soul in the way you present this is foreign to us as the Holy Spirit has never revealed such a teaching to any of us. There is nothing secret that will not be made manifest neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. It seems you are mixing scripture with spiritualism as you said you are a Faithist and that is how they teach.

If this is not the case then you need to use scripture (book, chapter and verse) so we can go study them by allowing the Holy Spirit reveal these teachings to us as no one is going to just take the word of another unless they can study it for themselves. The word of God needs to be taught in all simplicity as Jesus taught as even within the parables He used He did explain them. What is being judged here is not you personally, but that of what you teach that we can not find in the scriptures. It seems what you are teaching is a serpent seed fallacy and I hope I am wrong about that as Faithist do teach this false doctrine.
 
wondering said:
Hi Oz,,,,
I'm chiming in because I'm on another thread with a member that is telling me I'm using an incorrect term because it's not in the bible...the term is Moral Law. I've been learning and reading about the Moral Law from the time I began to really study scripture.

If we just read the bible and come to our own conclusions,,,we might NOT understand biblical language in general...whereas if we study (to any degree) we do learn many terms that we would not otherwise know.

This does not mean that that anyone is wrong...we just each have our different ways.

And as to judging...you're right.
If we can't judge, how do we know what's right and what isn't?
We can't judge a person's soul...
but we are called to judge their behavior,,,
Click to expand...

wondering,

I regularly use 'incorrect' terms that are not in the Bible, e.g. the Trinity, the Bible, meanings of the atonement, Lord's Supper, etc.

The Moral Law is another example. In Hebrew the mishpatim are the moral laws that concern justice and judgment. Often in the OT they are translated as 'ordinances'. The Moral Law is based on God's holiness and so these laws are holy, unchanging and just. The intention of the Moral Law is to provide a framework for the people of God to obey God.

It should be obvious why these moral laws are needed. They don't prevent riots and murders but they provide a basis for maintaining justice in any society.

Look what has happened in the USA, Australia and Great Britain when the Moral Law has been violated with the killing of George Floyd. Bob Dylan called Floyd's death 'beyond ugly' and he hopes 'justice comes swift'. Why should that be? We live under moral laws of justice that must be implemented in any society to make it civilised.

Contemporary Protestants are divided over whether the mishpatim applies in the church age. Jesus said: 'For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished' (Matt 5:18 NIV). So, the law will remain until the earth passes away.

However, what does the verse before, Matt 5:17 (NIV), state: 'Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them'.

Gal 6:2 (NIV) states we are 'to fulfil the law of Christ'. This is understood to refer to 'love God and love others (Matthew 22:36-40 NIV). Although many of the moral laws in the OT are found in the NT, I conclude (i.e. my view) that Christians are not bound by the mishpatim, the OT Moral Law.

Oz
 
HeIsRisen2018 said:
Not a huge fan of statistics. All it is a bunch of numbers that may or may not be accurate.
Click to expand...

HIR,

So, is the Australian Bureau of Statistics wasting its time doing a survey of the whole nation every 4 years. The last one was conducted in 2016.

Your personal opinion about statistics should not be a guide about the discipline of statistics.

I've written my assessment of the 2016 results in: Question on religion: Australian Census 2016. When a statistician places 'No religion' at the top of the statistics' voting paper, it is expected that voting dummies will place '1' in the #1 spot. Voting is compulsory in Australia. There is a legislated fine for those who don't vote in elections.

There is an increasing push by some anti-religionists, rationalists, atheists, and parents wanting schools to be secular. This is an attempt to get Religious Instruction (1 hour a week) out of the classroom.

Oz
 
Last edited:
OzSpen said:
wondering,

I regularly use 'incorrect' terms that are not in the Bible, e.g. the Trinity, the Bible, meanings of the atonement, Lord's Supper, etc.

The Moral Law is another example. In Hebrew the mishpatim are the moral laws that concern justice and judgment. Often in the OT they are translated as 'ordinances'. The Moral Law is based on God's holiness and so these laws are holy, unchanging and just. The intention of the Moral Law is to provide a framework for the people of God to obey God.

It should be obvious why these moral laws are needed. They don't prevent riots and murders but they provide a basis for maintaining justice in any society.

Look what has happened in the USA, Australia and Great Britain when the Moral Law has been violated with the killing of George Floyd. Bob Dylan called Floyd's death 'beyond ugly' and he hopes 'justice comes swift'. Why should that be? We live under moral laws of justice that must be implemented in any society to make it civilised.

Contemporary Protestants are divided over whether the mishpatim applies in the church age. Jesus said: 'For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished' (Matt 5:18 NIV). So, the law will remain until the earth passes away.

However, what does the verse before, Matt 5:17 (NIV), state: 'Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them'.

Gal 6:2 (NIV) states we are 'to fulfil the law of Christ'. This is understood to refer to 'love God and love others (Matthew 22:36-40 NIV). Although many of the moral laws in the OT are found in the NT, I conclude (i.e. my view) that Christians are not bound by the mishpatim, the OT Moral Law.

Oz
Click to expand...
Well, if I've understood the Moral Law correctly, and I think I have,
the mishpatim must apply also to us.
Why?
Because to fulfill the Law of Christ is speaking exactly about the commandments.
Jesus added to the 10,,,He did not abolish any of them.
His Two Great Commandments cover all of the 10 and also all the other commands He gave...for instance the behavioral attitudes in Matthew 5:3-9.

And we re to obey the Moral Law because it was written by God on stone and moved to man's heart....Ezekiel, Jeremiah and explained in Romans.

God is a moral being and His moral laws will never be abolished...
they existed from the beginning of time and will continue till the end,,,as Jesus stated.

I appreciate your reply.
 
OzSpen said:
Your personal opinion about statistics should not be a guide about the discipline of statistics.
Click to expand...






You're telling me that my personal opinion is out of line when you were judging somebody before actually getting a chance to know them? Sounds like hypocrite behavior to me. :rolleyes
 
wondering said:
Well, if I've understood the Moral Law correctly, and I think I have,
the mishpatim must apply also to us.
Why?
Because to fulfill the Law of Christ is speaking exactly about the commandments.
Jesus added to the 10,,,He did not abolish any of them.
His Two Great Commandments cover all of the 10 and also all the other commands He gave...for instance the behavioral attitudes in Matthew 5:3-9.

And we re to obey the Moral Law because it was written by God on stone and moved to man's heart....Ezekiel, Jeremiah and explained in Romans.

God is a moral being and His moral laws will never be abolished...
they existed from the beginning of time and will continue till the end,,,as Jesus stated.

I appreciate your reply.
Click to expand...

wondering,

Are you prepared to endorse all of the OT Moral Law in secular Italy? I'm thinking of:

Do you consider in 21st century Europe and the Western world these Moral Laws from the OT should be applied?

Capital punishment for several offences:
  1. Murder, but not for accidental killings (Ex. 21:12-14; Lev. 24:17; Num. 35:16-28)
  2. Striking a mother or father (Ex. 21:15; Lev. 20:9)
  3. Kidnapping (Ex. 21:16; Deut. 24:7)
  4. Adultery (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22-24)
  5. Incest (Lev. 20:11-12, 14)
  6. Bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16)
  7. Homosexuality (Lev. 20:13)
  8. Promiscuity (Deut. 22:20-21)
  9. Sex with another man's wife (Deut. 22:25-27)
  10. Witchcraft (Ex. 22:18)
  11. Offering human sacrifices to a god (Lev. 20:2)
  12. A stubborn and rebellious child (Deut. 21:18-21)
  13. Blasphemy/cursing God (Lev. 24:11-16)
  14. Breaking the Sabbath (Ex. 35:2; Num. 15:32-26)
  15. Worshipping or enticing to worship false gods (Ex. 22:20; Deut. 13:1-11)
  16. Refusing to obey a court decision (Deut. 17:12).
Oz
 
wondering said:
Well, if I've understood the Moral Law correctly, and I think I have,
the mishpatim must apply also to us.
Why?
Because to fulfill the Law of Christ is speaking exactly about the commandments.
Jesus added to the 10,,,He did not abolish any of them.
His Two Great Commandments cover all of the 10 and also all the other commands He gave...for instance the behavioral attitudes in Matthew 5:3-9.

And we re to obey the Moral Law because it was written by God on stone and moved to man's heart....Ezekiel, Jeremiah and explained in Romans.

God is a moral being and His moral laws will never be abolished...
they existed from the beginning of time and will continue till the end,,,as Jesus stated.

I appreciate your reply.
Click to expand...

Are the consequences of breaking the OT Moral Law still in place?
 
Let's reel all this in people as this is a welcome new member forum and here we are on page 5 discussing moral laws. mozo1 has started other threads and has replied to a few other forums and I suggest we move on and you can address his replies within them.
 
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