"I and the Father are One."

[Pard]

Now I get your analogy. It confused me, and now that I understand what you were trying to say I know why it confused me... it made little sense.

"King of kings" and "Lord of lords" are titles, not groups. You are looking at your U.S. Army logo, when you should be looking at your name and rank, like Free said.

 

[Mysteryman]

Now I get your analogy. It confused me, and now that I understand what you were trying to say I know why it confused me... it made little sense.

"King of kings" and "Lord of lords" are titles, not groups. You are looking at your U.S. Army logo, when you should be looking at your name and rank, like Free said.

My analogy shouldn't have confused you in the first place. It is a perfect analogy , because a uniform lines up with a vesture. What is on that uniform or vesture does in no way make me what it states on it.

You said that Jesus was King of kings and Lord of Lords. This is your belief, but you provide no support for your belief. And as far as Free is concerned, I can not remember when he ever supplied support for anything he has ever said.

You make a claim, now support that claim !

Did you read verse one of Rev. one ? Did you answer any of my questions that I asked of you ?

The Word "Lord" does not only apply to the Lord God Almighty. This word has a much broader understanding.

Jesus would not hand over a kingdom to God, his Father, if Jesus was King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Yet, that is exactly what Jesus does - I Corinth. 15:24. And if Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, there is no one to whom he would be subject unto. Yet again, this is exactly what Jesus becomes - "subject" unto God - I Corinth. 15:28

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi Pard :

I would like to also add, that there is a ranking in the Kingdom of heaven. Christians also will receive crowns for their faithfulness. Crowns represents a king, or level of ranking in the kingdom of heaven. The word "Lord" basically means - "over" or one who is over .

The word "Lord" is applied within a marraige, as Sarah called Abraham Lord. Christ is Lord over the body of Christ. Or the head of the body. The one who is over the body of Christ.

There is also one who is the lord of the vineyard - Matt. 20:8

So there are Lords in the kingdom of heaven and there are kings within the kingdom of heaven. But there is only -- One -- who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and that -- One -- is the Lord God Almighty.

Jesus will become subject unto the Lord God Almighty . So it is quite obvious that he is not king of kings and lord of lords. He represents the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. This is why it is written on his vesture.

As an army soldier, I also had a rank, but I only represented the US Army. I was not the US Army, even though it was written on my uniform. Even a four star general can be removed from his position, as we have just seen recently in the Afgan war.

He was replaced by another four star general. The reason I bring this up, is for the very same reason that the angel of light was removed from his postion in heaven ( Lucifer, the angel of light ) and was also replace by the Revealed Mystery, Christ and the body of Christ which also represents - Light.

Christ sits at the right hand of power, as the scriptures tell us. Which is also the right hand of the throne of God, who is the King of heaven.

 

[Free]

You said that Jesus was King of kings and Lord of Lords. This is your belief, but you provide no support for your belief. And as far as Free is concerned, I can not remember when he ever supplied support for anything he has ever said.

You make a claim, now support that claim !

If it wasn't for your forgetfulness I would have thought you were resorting to your usual ad hominem style of debating.

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful." (ESV)

You do know who the Lamb is, yes?

 

[Free]

MM,

Another parallel is found in the context of Rev 1:5-6, which you want Pard to read:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (ESV)
Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
Rev 1:14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
Rev 1:16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (ESV)

The obvious question to you MM then is: When did God, the Almighty (v 8), die (v 18)?

But it doesn't end there:

Rev 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
Rev 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. (ESV)

And:

Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (ESV)

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (ESV)

 

[Drew]

Quote Drew : "Let's remember the history: Who was it that claimed that a prophet cannot also be part of a Trinity, based on categorical considerations? It was none other than you, MM."

---------------------------

Sometimes Drew, you are your own worst enemy. :yes

I never made no such statement ! I did say, that a Prophet brings forth a message "for/from God", and that if Jesus Christ is God, then by shear logic, Jesus Christ can not be a Prophet for God, because he would be God ,thus speaking for himself. A Prophet is a go between. A go between the one the message is given to, and the one who is to receive the message. There is one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. You do know what a mediator is, do you not ?

My statement was entirely correct.

And you just repeated the categorical argument again just now. You are arguing that Jesus cannot be "God" since He falls into a particular category and therefore inherents the properties that go along with that category. In this case you use the argument that since Jesus is a “prophetâ€, and since a prophet is a “go between†or mediator, He cannot be one of the parties that he acts as mediator for.

That, MM, is a categorical argument.

And it is not the correct way to look at this issue, even though many Trinitarians approach the issue this way too.

As I have shown in numerous posts that you have mysteriously ignored, Jesus acts and says things that make it clear that He is the embodiment of Isael’s God. That is the real case for his “God-nessâ€.

It is no wonder you choose to ignore these arguments – when Jesus’ actions and words are examined in relation to the Old Testament story, it is clear that He fits the role of God like a glove.

 

[Mysteryman]

You said that Jesus was King of kings and Lord of Lords. This is your belief, but you provide no support for your belief. And as far as Free is concerned, I can not remember when he ever supplied support for anything he has ever said.

You make a claim, now support that claim !

If it wasn't for your forgetfulness I would have thought you were resorting to your usual ad hominem style of debating.

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful." (ESV)

You do know who the Lamb is, yes?

Hi Free:

Yes indeed, I know who the Lamb is within the book of Rev. chapter 17, The Lamb is God. Now let me ask you something. Could there be more than one Lamb ?

Now another question : How will the Lamb conquer them , by himself , or by his representitive ? For instance, our President is making war with Afgan. but he himself sends his representitives, correct ?

And is it not correct, that this verse 14 is talking about Christians, who were called and chosen, who will be with him (Christ)(Representitive's) ?

 

[Oats]

You said that Jesus was King of kings and Lord of Lords. This is your belief, but you provide no support for your belief. And as far as Free is concerned, I can not remember when he ever supplied support for anything he has ever said.

You make a claim, now support that claim !

If it wasn't for your forgetfulness I would have thought you were resorting to your usual ad hominem style of debating.

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful." (ESV)

You do know who the Lamb is, yes?

Hi Free:

Yes indeed, I know who the Lamb is within the book of Rev. The Lamb is God. Now let me ask you something. Could there be more than one Lamb ?

Now another question : How will the Lamb conquer them , by himself , or by his representitive ? For instance, our President is making war with Afgan. but he himself sends his representitives, correct ?

And is it not correct, that this verse 14 is talking about Christians, who were called and chosen, who will be with him (Christ)(Representitive's) ?

This is a really bad style of debating...you aren't really defending your points....

For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon 1 his shoulder,
and his name shall be called 2
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Mysteryman]

MM,

Another parallel is found in the context of Rev 1:5-6, which you want Pard to read:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (ESV)
Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
Rev 1:14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
Rev 1:16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (ESV)

The obvious question to you MM then is: When did God, the Almighty (v 8), die (v 18)?

But it doesn't end there:

Rev 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
Rev 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. (ESV)

And:

Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (ESV)

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (ESV)

Hi Free :

You are assuming that God himself is speaking here. But your assumption would be incorrect. God speaks here through a representitive, an angelic being - Rev. 1:1

This angelic being, which simply means a heavenly being , or a celestial being, who is none other than Jesus Christ himself in his ascended body. The time that Jesus Christ speaks of himself, is in Rev. 1:18

Also remember , that this angelic being, which is Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, is also speaking in Rev. 19:10 - "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he ( this angelic being, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God) said unto me, See thou do it not : I am thy fellowservant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus Christ : worship God : for the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy"

These words spoken by this angelic being, which is Jesus Christ , the Lamb of God, the words he speaks are ----- the spirit of prophecy.

A messenger of God, Jesus Christ himself, was sent by God to be the spirit of prophecy unto John. And as it says in Rev. 1:2 , that it was John - "Who bear record of the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw"

A Prophet speaks for God and speaks as if he himself is God, by the way in which the words are formulated.

When John turned to see the voice that spake with him, he saw seven candlesticks. And in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle (Remember, no man has seen God at any time !) And the description of him goes on in the next few verses.

 

[Free]

You said that Jesus was King of kings and Lord of Lords. This is your belief, but you provide no support for your belief. And as far as Free is concerned, I can not remember when he ever supplied support for anything he has ever said.

You make a claim, now support that claim !

If it wasn't for your forgetfulness I would have thought you were resorting to your usual ad hominem style of debating.

Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful." (ESV)

You do know who the Lamb is, yes?

Hi Free:

Yes indeed, I know who the Lamb is within the book of Rev. chapter 17, The Lamb is God. Now let me ask you something. Could there be more than one Lamb ?

You get half marks for that answer: the Lamb is God. The main point though is that the Lamb is Jesus. Throughout the entire NT Jesus is referred to as the Lamb, from John to Revelation, which of course ties in with the OT and Jesus being the Passover lamb.

Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

Every use of "the Lamb" in Revelation is in reference to the Son, not the Father. Indeed it cannot be used of the Father since "Lamb" is used for obvious reasons, unless you want to now argue that the Father died as the sacrificial lamb at Passover for the sins of the world.

In regards to the use of "the Lamb," there is only one.

 

[Free]

MM,

Another parallel is found in the context of Rev 1:5-6, which you want Pard to read:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (ESV)
Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
Rev 1:14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
Rev 1:16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (ESV)

The obvious question to you MM then is: When did God, the Almighty (v 8), die (v 18)?

But it doesn't end there:

Rev 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
Rev 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. (ESV)

And:

Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (ESV)

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (ESV)

Hi Free :

You are assuming that God himself is speaking here. But your assumption would be incorrect. God speaks here through a representitive, an angelic being - Rev. 1:1

This angelic being, which simply means a heavenly being , or a celestial being, who is none other than Jesus Christ himself in his ascended body. The time that Jesus Christ speaks of himself, is in Rev. 1:18

Also remember , that this angelic being, which is Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, is also speaking in Rev. 19:10 - "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he ( this angelic being, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God) said unto me, See thou do it not : I am thy fellowservant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus Christ : worship God : for the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy"

These words spoken by this angelic being, which is Jesus Christ , the Lamb of God, the words he speaks are ----- the spirit of prophecy.

A messenger of God, Jesus Christ himself, was sent by God to be the spirit of prophecy unto John. And as it says in Rev. 1:2 , that it was John - "Who bear record of the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw"

A Prophet speaks for God and speaks as if he himself is God, by the way in which the words are formulated.

When John turned to see the voice that spake with him, he saw seven candlesticks. And in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle (Remember, no man has seen God at any time !) And the description of him goes on in the next few verses.

Wow, you actually didn't answer anything with all those words.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Free : "In regards to the use of "the Lamb," there is only one."

-----------------------------

Hi Free :

No Free, there are two Lamb's.

Jesus Christ is the --- "Lamb of God". A Lamb begats a Lamb, understand ? Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

The phrase -- "Lamb of God", it is not written -- "The Lamb God" !

In Rev. 17:14 God is the Lamb, and Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. The word "of, meaning - "from".

There are two Lamb's, because God is a God of two of everything. < One of the mysteries of God !

In Rev. 17:14 there are two Lamb's

Rev. 17:14 - "These shall make war with the Lamb (1. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of/from God), and the Lamb (2. God) shall overcome them : for he (God) is Lord of lords, and King of kings"

 

[Mysteryman]

MM,

Another parallel is found in the context of Rev 1:5-6, which you want Pard to read:

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (ESV)
Rev 1:9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
Rev 1:14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
Rev 1:16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. (ESV)

The obvious question to you MM then is: When did God, the Almighty (v 8), die (v 18)?

But it doesn't end there:

Rev 21:5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
Rev 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. (ESV)

And:

Rev 22:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star." (ESV)

Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (ESV)

Hi Free :

You are assuming that God himself is speaking here. But your assumption would be incorrect. God speaks here through a representitive, an angelic being - Rev. 1:1

This angelic being, which simply means a heavenly being , or a celestial being, who is none other than Jesus Christ himself in his ascended body. The time that Jesus Christ speaks of himself, is in Rev. 1:18

Also remember , that this angelic being, which is Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, is also speaking in Rev. 19:10 - "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he ( this angelic being, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God) said unto me, See thou do it not : I am thy fellowservant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus Christ : worship God : for the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy"

These words spoken by this angelic being, which is Jesus Christ , the Lamb of God, the words he speaks are ----- the spirit of prophecy.

A messenger of God, Jesus Christ himself, was sent by God to be the spirit of prophecy unto John. And as it says in Rev. 1:2 , that it was John - "Who bear record of the word of God and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw"

A Prophet speaks for God and speaks as if he himself is God, by the way in which the words are formulated.

When John turned to see the voice that spake with him, he saw seven candlesticks. And in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle (Remember, no man has seen God at any time !) And the description of him goes on in the next few verses.

Wow, you actually didn't answer anything with all those words.

Maybe I forgot to mention, --- for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Oh btw, if you are having trouble with Rev. 22:16, you "must" go back to chapter one and notice there, that Jesus Christ has seven angels under him.

 

[Oats]

This thread isn't very fruitful...you're not responding to anything said here...are you okay?

 

[Free]

Quote Free : "In regards to the use of "the Lamb," there is only one."

-----------------------------

Hi Free :

No Free, there are two Lamb's.

Jesus Christ is the --- "Lamb of God". A Lamb begats a Lamb, understand ? Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

The phrase -- "Lamb of God", it is not written -- "The Lamb God" !

In Rev. 17:14 God is the Lamb, and Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God. The word "of, meaning - "from".

There are two Lamb's, because God is a God of two of everything. < One of the mysteries of God !

In Rev. 17:14 there are two Lamb's

Rev. 17:14 - "These shall make war with the Lamb (1. Jesus Christ, the Lamb of/from God), and the Lamb (2. God) shall overcome them : for he (God) is Lord of lords, and King of kings"

I'm speechless....

Within the same verse, you somehow manage to get two different meanings from the exact same use of "the Lamb." And this despite just saying that "the Lamb of God" is Jesus and "the Lamb" is God, which as I have pointed out, is erroneous in itself.

That is hands down some of the worst biblical interpretation I have seen. I really see no point debating with you if you are going to make up your own hermeneutics. I'll let your errors speak for themselves.

Maybe I forgot to mention, --- for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Yes, you did. But now that you mention it, it's all coming together. :gah

My point is that we, once again, have the same title being applied to both the Father and the Son. But you choose not to address that and instead come up with some irrelevant points about who is speaking and who is not.

 

[LaCrum]

Free - That's some really good scripture you used to support your argument in this thread. Well played sir.

 

[Drew]

From Malachi:

Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. 2 But who can endure the day of his coming?

Here, God promises to return to His temple, and that it will be a time of judgement.

From the gospel of Matthew:

Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves. 13"It is written," he said to them, " 'My house will be called a house of prayer,'[e] but you are making it a 'den of robbers.'

Who has entered the temple and exercised judgement?

Jesus.

Jesus entry into the temple, and his actions there, are the fulfillment of the promised return of God to the temple in order to judge. This makes Jesus "God in the flesh".

Now MM will simply not engage this argument (he has ignored it in the past). And the reason is clear - the argument is devastating to those who deny the "God-ness" of Jesus.

 

[Pard]

MM,

I did show you evidence to point out that Jesus is the Lord of lords... you just decided to make one of the worst analogies I have ever seen to try and defend it, and then I showed how you were truly a terrible analogy maker and then you asked me for evidence, one could only assume so you can use that terrible analogy again...

--

Has anyone noticed that MM only uses questions to counter points? It's almost as if he asks questions simple to scare people into not responding (or more likely, people are to lazy and/or couldn't care less), and it seems to work. However, I have gone and looked and found some of the answers to the questions he is asking... they do not pertain to the topic at hand, at all. It is just a stupid tactic.

The Trinitarians keep building up an amazing defense of scripture and theology and the non-trinitarian keeps asking dead-end questions, making useless analogies, and working in circular logic.

What can a guy do...

 

[Oats]

MM,

I did show you evidence to point out that Jesus is the Lord of lords... you just decided to make one of the worst analogies I have ever seen to try and defend it, and then I showed how you were truly a terrible analogy maker and then you asked me for evidence, one could only assume so you can use that terrible analogy again...

--

Has anyone noticed that MM only uses questions to counter points? It's almost as if he asks questions simple to scare people into not responding (or more likely, people are to lazy and/or couldn't care less), and it seems to work. However, I have gone and looked and found some of the answers to the questions he is asking... they do not pertain to the topic at hand, at all. It is just a stupid tactic.

The Trinitarians keep building up an amazing defense of scripture and theology and the non-trinitarian keeps asking dead-end questions, making useless analogies, and working in circular logic.

What can a guy do...

I agree...God forgive me for judging.

 

[Free]

Please address the topic and points being made.