"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[FreeGrace]

There was a "real" messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh and that's pretty much all there is to the matter.

Yes, much like a thorn in the flesh.

When Paul said "I believe" that extension was not to the adversary in his flesh and that also would not apply to that adversary.

Which is why all your talk of Paul's messenger is irrelevant to any discussion of salvation.

There are many sound scriptural reasons to "see" this actual adversary in Paul's flesh OR we'll wind up with having to see Paul himself as "evil" per Romans 7:21 and that is NOT going to cut scriptural mustard.

There is no reason from Scripture.

 

[WIP]

Did I do something wrong? I don't post here very often. I apologize if I broke a rule, please fill me in.

Just a general reminder to follow the rules of this forum. I see that some have chosen to ignore this request so I'll say again, please review the forum guidelines. Posts may be removed for non-compliance.

 

[smaller]

Yes, much like a thorn in the flesh.

Which is why all your talk of Paul's messenger is irrelevant to any discussion of salvation.

So you may claim. In most sights of OSAS they never factor scriptural reality to the "whole package" of what any believer presently consists of. The sights are in effect, blind to the obvious adversary, claiming "exemption, exemption" for "me." That's not possible.

The basis for mercy, forgiveness and grace from Christ Alone resides on our need of same. The existence of our adversary is the basis of our need of Christ Alone, by His Sole Power. The sight of the adversary then is entirely relevant. Paul uses this exact pointer, to the messenger of Satan "in his flesh" as the source of his "personal inability" and hence that messenger of Satan is his weakness, sourced.

The sufficiency of God's Grace is based on Paul's weakness, because of the adversary in his flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Any form of accurate sight would reveal two separate fates.

One for Paul: OSAS.
And an opposite fate for the messenger of Satan.

And this puts Paul entirely at God's Mercy and Grace. He shows in this the futility of claiming "works" salvation. God remains "factually against" the other party, the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh. No amount of works will save the whole package, because it's impossible to save the adversary in the flesh. It's not going to happen.

Quite entirely critical sight across the board.

It's one thing to look in the mirror and see only a child of God staring back. It's quite another to see two separate and distinct parties with two opposite fates.

Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

 

[Chopper]

So you may claim. In most sights of OSAS they never factor scriptural reality to the "whole package" of what any believer presently consists of. The sights are in effect, blind to the obvious adversary, claiming "exemption, exemption" for "me." That's not possible.

The basis for mercy, forgiveness and grace from Christ Alone resides on our need of same. The existence of our adversary is the basis of our need of Christ Alone, by His Sole Power. The sight of the adversary then is entirely relevant. Paul uses this exact pointer, to the messenger of Satan "in his flesh" as the source of his "personal inability" and hence that messenger of Satan is his weakness, sourced.

The sufficiency of God's Grace is based on Paul's weakness, because of the adversary in his flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Any form of accurate sight would reveal two separate fates.

One for Paul: OSAS.
And an opposite fate for the messenger of Satan.

And this puts Paul entirely at God's Mercy and Grace. He shows in this the futility of claiming "works" salvation. God remains "factually against" the other party, the messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh. No amount of works will save the whole package, because it's impossible to save the adversary in the flesh. It's not going to happen.

Quite entirely critical sight across the board.

It's one thing to look in the mirror and see only a child of God staring back. It's quite another to see two separate and distinct parties with two opposite fates.

Hosea 1:10
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

? I'm having a terrible time figuring out what in the world you're posting. I'm sorry, perhaps it's because I'm a simple Country Preacher with just a Bible College education. the terms, language and words go right over my head. Perhaps you could put the cookie jar down on my level so I can get to your cookie's.

 

[JLB]

? I'm having a terrible time figuring out what in the world you're posting. I'm sorry, perhaps it's because I'm a simple Country Preacher with just a Bible College education. the terms, language and words go right over my head. Perhaps you could put the cookie jar down on my level so I can get to your cookie's.

[Probably best not to start a fire. WIP]


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

So you may claim. In most sights of OSAS they never factor scriptural reality to the "whole package" of what any believer presently consists of. The sights are in effect, blind to the obvious adversary, claiming "exemption, exemption" for "me." That's not possible.

I really have no idea where this idea comes from. Every believer I know understands that the devil is our adversary. I've never met any believer who wasn't aware of that.

One for Paul: OSAS.
And an opposite fate for the messenger of Satan.

Which is WHY your obsession with the messenger is irrelevant to any discussion of OSAS. We're only speaking of the believer, never about the adversary or messenger.

 

[Chopper]

I really hate to ask such a simply question, but in context with your OP, what does it mean to be saved? What is it we are saved from?

I'll try, if it's ok with you, to answer question 64 as well as this one. As far as Micah 4:3-5 which you quoted, I honestly had to try and figure out why you would quote such an obscure portion of Scripture, IMO, as an answer to my question to you. I'm assuming that by the use of V.3 you are saying that my questioning if a person who professes Salvation in Jesus, but shows little evidence of Salvation, I might start a conflict with that person, and God would not want that.

V.4 My questions might put fear in this per, back at itson's heart.

V.5 Let this person alone, what will be will be.
V.4 My questions might put fear in this person's heart.

The problem is, James 5:19 and 20 is my mandate.
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. (KJV)

James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. (ESV)

Now, this leads us to your second question which is not really a "silly question." You ask, "what does it mean to be saved?", and "what is it that we are saved from?" I feel that you'd like to know just what I'm looking for in a person who claims to be "saved". The word "saved" is the Greek word sozo- Something happened to the font size on this new lap-top. Oh well back at it. opps, fixed it.

Sozo, or "saved" means to be made whole, or to be made sound. I'll tell you a story. When I was a part of the "biker scene" before my two hip replacements and two failed spine surgeries, I rode to Rolling Thunder for many years. On one trip, with 12 other bikers, 7 were not saved. This one biker considered himself to be saved. He said that he trusted Jesus as his Savior, and that he was a child of God.

This fellow was on several trips with us, and his lifestyle was anything but Christian. He would swear a lot, using that four letter word, especially when the unsaved bikers were nearby. I waited on the Lord to see if He wanted me to confront him and for two years I got no answer so I did nothing. On our third trip I felt compelled to approach him. I simply asked him something like this, Do you think that Jesus approves of the swearing, the lewd comments about the women that you see, and the constant use of that four letter word?

He look at me and said, you're the first person to say that to me, no, I don't think Jesus would approve. Will you pray for me to change? I want to. I did pray for him, and the next year at Rolling Thunder, it was a joy to be around him, and his wife said that he had made big changes.

What was he saved from you ask? James can answer that. " will save his soul from death (probably the sin unto death) and will cover a multitude of sins."

I hope that answers your question my old friend.

 

[Douglas Summers]

? I'm having a terrible time figuring out what in the world you're posting. I'm sorry, perhaps it's because I'm a simple Country Preacher with just a Bible College education. the terms, language and words go right over my head. Perhaps you could put the cookie jar down on my level so I can get to your cookie's.

Hi Chopper, I'm not sure either. I will ask her.

 

[Roro1972]

I did not see these verses in this thread, they may be and I missed them. maybe some one will give their understanding of these it would help me out. thanks
Acts 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Mark 16
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Rom 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Douglas Summers]

God in Christ did NOT come to "possibly" burn believers in hell. That is NOT the Good News of the Gospel. He came to SAVE us and He will do exactly that by His Own Sole Power over all adversity that we are presently immersed into. Phil. 3:21 speaks to "how" this will transpire.

John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So, what are we saved from?

-enemies
Luke 1:
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
-Satan/power of darkness Acts 26:18
-earthly trials 2 Pet. 2:9
-Death Hosea 13:14, Romans 8:38, Phil. 3:10, 2 Tim. 1:8-10, Heb. 5:7, James 5:20
-sins Matt. 1:21, Luke 1:77, John 1:29, John 8:34-36, Acts 13:38-39, Acts 26:18, 1 Pet 2:24-25
-slavery to evil behavior and passions Titus 3:3-5
-slavery to sin Rom. 6:23, Rom. 8:1-4, 1 Tim. 1:15
-slavery to futility and bondage to decay Rom. 8:19-21
-slavery to the mastery of darkness Col. 1:13-14
-captivity to the present evil age Gal. 1:3-4
-slavery to the elemental spirits of the universe Gal. 4:3-6, Gal. 4:31 Gal. 5:1
-impiety and worldly passions Titus 2:11-14
-a corrupt generation Acts 2:40, Phil. 2:15
-a pointless life following the ruling powers of evil Eph. 2:1-5
-our fleshly/contrary/vile body Phil. 3:20-21 Gal. 5:17

We can see in the above, when we say "I believe" it can be a simple as believing Jesus saves us,

to "I believe" all of the above,

and ultimately or eventually to believing Jesus Words, in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, that "I believe" I will live by Every Word of God. And this is where I eventually landed.

IF I believe Jesus Is The Living Word, IF I believe that His Spirit lives within me by faith, THEN I believe EVERY WORD OF GOD is in fact "alive," in me unto eternal life. The Word IS Spiritual, after all. Jesus is in full accord with His Word in print, but not the print on paper is Jesus The Word. Jesus IS The Word, ALIVE HIMSELF, in believers. Heb. 4:12

Hi smaller, I'am not sure what point you are trying to make? But to a simple question, the simple answer is, we are saved from God's wrath of Judgment of the disobedient. (Rom. 5:9) He has already condemned the flesh in believers, Romans Chapter 8. Since the believers flesh has already been condemned and we have died to it. We do not fear God's wrath. But we will be chastised as Sons of God. (Heb. 12:3-13) for it is our soul that He is saving (1 Cor. 5:5). So His wrath is coming, and we will not be in the Judgment.(Eph. 5:6; Col. 3:6; 1 Thes. 1:10; 5:9; Heb. 3:11; Rev. 6:17; 14:10; 16:1; 19:5) Salvation is the great inclusive word of "The Gospel'. Salvation is that work of God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-whereby the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ is redeemed from the curse of the law, justified, kept, set free from the dominion of sin, sanctified and finally perfected in the Image of his Lord.
This is a simple and true understanding of being saved. It means we are safe, delivered, safety, soundness, preserved and rescued from destruction. And here is the reason for His wrath (Gen. 6:5-7)....Except for God's grace (Gen. 6:8-9)

 

[smaller]

? I'm having a terrible time figuring out what in the world you're posting. I'm sorry, perhaps it's because I'm a simple Country Preacher with just a Bible College education. the terms, language and words go right over my head. Perhaps you could put the cookie jar down on my level so I can get to your cookie's.

I've observed enough for anyone who is interested to have tracked it out by now chopper.

What I usually observe in any posture is that there is always an INVERSE posture to observe with any scriptural position that comes from the adversary. So, if any believer says "I believe" they are not speaking for the totality of what they consist of internally, in the flesh. And that's based on the intrusion principle Jesus taught in Mark 4:15 and the other seed parables, showing the entrance of the adversary into the hearts of people, where the Word is sown.

Without this balanced sight, we end up with lop sided sights that only lean to one side of the equations when there are always two sides to observe that are always in conflict/contentions with each others.

 

[smaller]

Which is WHY your obsession with the messenger is irrelevant to any discussion of OSAS. We're only speaking of the believer, never about the adversary or messenger.

I reject slurs. Sorry. IF Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, which he DID, then there is more to observe than "just Paul."

Simple fact of scriptures. Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 2:7, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15 ALL point directly to the opposition/adverary party IN PAUL'S OWN FLESH.

Unfortunate that such obvious matters are deemed irrelevant when they are the basis of Paul's doctrine of Grace through faith, alone, and NOT of our works or our righteousness.

 

[FreeGrace]

I reject slurs.

So do I.

Sorry.

For what?

IF Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, which he DID, then there is more to observe than "just Paul."

No, there's not. And you have not proven your point.

Simple fact of scriptures. Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 2:7, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15 ALL point directly to the opposition/adverary party IN PAUL'S OWN FLESH.

Paul's messenger from satan was specifically because of his receiving "surprassing great revelations" when he was out of body and in God's presence, in order to keep him from becoming conceited. 2 Cor 12:7

Unless you have been where Paul was and received what he received, you do NOT have what Paul had and prayed to be rid of.

But what all believers have is a sinful nature, which has nothing to do with the messenger of satan. Our internal conflict is between our sinful nature and our new nature.

 

[JLB]

I reject slurs. Sorry. IF Paul had a messenger of Satan in his flesh, which he DID, then there is more to observe than "just Paul."

Paul did not have a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

Paul was given a messenger of Satan to buffet him.

The messenger was a human being, a Pharisee must like Paul was, that persuaded the Gentile Churches that Paul was raising up, to turn away from Christ, by becoming circumcised and keeping the law of Moses in order to be saved.

That was his message.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


Satan must use a human being to buffet Paul, and undermine his message to the Gentile Churches.


A thorn in the flesh, is an idiom, a phrase that means a source of irritation, or frustration.

A thorn in the flesh is a well know idiomatic expression.

It doesn't mean Satan was in Paul's flesh.
Wikipedia -

Thorn in the flesh is a colloquialism used to describe a chronic infirmity, annoyance, or trouble in one's life. It is most commonly used by Christians. The source of this Bible expression is Paul the Apostle, in his Second Epistle to the Corinthians 12:7–9:[1]

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (KJV)


It's a well know expression.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18


The messenger of Satan was a human being that undermined and thwarted Paul's message, as well as stir up Jews against Paul wherever he went.

This condition was unique to Paul, because of the abundance of his revelations.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Unfortunate that such obvious matters are deemed irrelevant when they are the basis of Paul's doctrine of Grace through faith, alone, and NOT of our works or our righteousness.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

.... he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Do you reject this scripture as being true?


You would have to, to think that every Christian has a messenger of Satan in their flesh.


JLB

 

[smaller]

No, there's not. And you have not proven your point.

I have no point to prove. What I'm "observing" is Paul's statement of fact in the equations of himself.

Paul's messenger from satan was specifically because of his receiving "surprassing great revelations" when he was out of body and in God's presence, in order to keep him from becoming conceited. 2 Cor 12:7

Explaining the 'because of' or 'why' there are 2 parties to the equation is a separate topic.

We can view the fact that there are 2 parties present in the equation of Paul.

Unless you have been where Paul was and received what he received, you do NOT have what Paul had and prayed to be rid of.

I understand that many are fond of eliminating the observations in the scriptures that they don't care for and can figure out ways to avoid. That again is a separate topic. I consider every scripture Paul wrote to be of immense personal value to every believer, as the scriptures themselves state.

But what all believers have is a sinful nature, which has nothing to do with the messenger of satan.

Yes it does. 1 John 3:8 connects the devil directly to sin. Again, 2 parties present. If I recall your claim is that 1 John 3:8 should be re-written to state that "some" sin is of the devil and "some" only of man. Unfortunately for that sight, it's not there to see.

Our internal conflict is between our sinful nature and our new nature.

The sin nature is demonic.

When 2 parties are in view, the statement "I believe" takes on an entirely different application. Which was the observation from the start.

 

[FreeGrace]

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

Have you been born of God?
Have you ceased from sinning?

 

[smaller]

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

.... he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Do you reject this scripture as being true?

I reject any notions that any believer is sinless or that sin is NOT of the devil. I also reject any notions that the flesh of every believer is NOT contrary to the Spirit, because it is contrary because of sin. Gal. 5:17

Very simple basic points.

You would have to, to think that every Christian has a messenger of Satan in their flesh.

JLB[/QUOTE]

Every believers sin is demonic and every believer "has" present tense sin indwelling their flesh. What any of us believe on the truth/truthful side of the ledgers of scripture would apply to the other party in the equations exactly nothing.

No form of obedience made any believer sinless and no believer eliminates sin being of the devil.

Therefore, the conclusion in these equations is that there are 2 parties present to observe in any positional statement. And this is Paul's exact basis of teaching salvation by Grace through faith alone, and not of ourselves, our righteousness or our works.

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The question of sufficiency for "I believe" IS sufficient because of the other party, our adversary who is present with all in the form adverse thoughts against God's Words, evil thoughts, which are the "basis" of our MUTUAL defilement of the body that makes it contrary to the Spirit and vile.

No statement of "I believe" or any other good or righteous action is capable of bailing out the adversary.

I observe this as a paradox meaning what applies to one has an opposite application to the other.

Paul assuredly teaches that there are 2 parties in the "lump" of "me." Romans 9:18-24 and Paul takes this scriptural fact directly from Jesus in Mark 4:15 and the other seed parables showing again, that there are 2 parties present to the equations of scripture.

It's a very basic lesson. I'm always surprised however at how many believers can't see it and will instead openly resist the sight.

And this actually attests to the fact and reality of the scriptural phenomenon of the other party.

 

[smaller]

Have you been born of God?
Have you ceased from sinning?

I as a child of God do not have "sin" counted against me. 2 Cor. 5:19. I may even regard this as being sinless in and of myself "in Christ." But that does not address the contrary flesh or sin that indwells "MY" flesh just as it indwelt Paul's flesh.

Every action of sin is directly demonic and this extends from evil/sin thoughts to evil/sin words to evil/sin deeds. No one is exempt from this adverse action.

Can I say I have no sin and be "IN TRUTH?"

Never. 1 John 1:8

People who land there have merely been turned into lying hypocrites by indwelling sin and I won't be that kind of slave to it on the basis of any false doctrines stating otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have no point to prove. What I'm "observing" is Paul's statement of fact in the equations of himself.

The application of your observations are incorrect.

Explaining the 'because of' or 'why' there are 2 parties to the equation is a separate topic.

There are no 2 parties to any equation.

We can view the fact that there are 2 parties present in the equation of Paul.

Paul is not an equation. And there are not 2 parties going on in him. Even if he were a party animal. lol

I understand that many are fond of eliminating the observations in the scriptures that they don't care for and can figure out ways to avoid.

I can't understand your "2 party system".

Yes it does. 1 John 3:8 connects the devil directly to sin. Again, 2 parties present.

If your view is that the devil is present IN believers, then your view is contrary to Scripture.

If I recall your claim is that 1 John 3:8 should be re-written to state that "some" sin is of the devil and "some" only of man. Unfortunately for that sight, it's not there to see.

I never suggested any re-write of any Scripture. Maybe in your fantasy. 1 Jn 3:8 does NOT say that all sin comes from the devil. He certainly was the first sinner. But the Bible also tells us that sin comes from our own hearts, and the devil is nowhere close to those verses.

A balanced view of Scripture is needed to understand Scripture. You've taken 1 verse and built a false idea from it.

The sin nature is demonic.

Please clarify exactly what that means. Demon possessed, or what?

When 2 parties are in view, the statement "I believe" takes on an entirely different application. Which was the observation from the start.

No it doesn't and there is no reason for such a claim.

When a person believes, it is THAT PERSON who believes and is saved. Period.