"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[smaller]

God in Christ did NOT come to "possibly" burn believers in hell. That is NOT the Good News of the Gospel. He came to SAVE us and He will do exactly that by His Own Sole Power over all adversity that we are presently immersed into. Phil. 3:21 speaks to "how" this will transpire.

John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

So, what are we saved from?

-enemies
Luke 1:
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
-Satan/power of darkness Acts 26:18
-earthly trials 2 Pet. 2:9
-Death Hosea 13:14, Romans 8:38, Phil. 3:10, 2 Tim. 1:8-10, Heb. 5:7, James 5:20
-sins Matt. 1:21, Luke 1:77, John 1:29, John 8:34-36, Acts 13:38-39, Acts 26:18, 1 Pet 2:24-25
-slavery to evil behavior and passions Titus 3:3-5
-slavery to sin Rom. 6:23, Rom. 8:1-4, 1 Tim. 1:15
-slavery to futility and bondage to decay Rom. 8:19-21
-slavery to the mastery of darkness Col. 1:13-14
-captivity to the present evil age Gal. 1:3-4
-slavery to the elemental spirits of the universe Gal. 4:3-6, Gal. 4:31 Gal. 5:1
-impiety and worldly passions Titus 2:11-14
-a corrupt generation Acts 2:40, Phil. 2:15
-a pointless life following the ruling powers of evil Eph. 2:1-5
-our fleshly/contrary/vile body Phil. 3:20-21 Gal. 5:17

We can see in the above, when we say "I believe" it can be a simple as believing Jesus saves us,

to "I believe" all of the above,

and ultimately or eventually to believing Jesus Words, in Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4, that "I believe" I will live by Every Word of God. And this is where I eventually landed.

IF I believe Jesus Is The Living Word, IF I believe that His Spirit lives within me by faith, THEN I believe EVERY WORD OF GOD is in fact "alive," in me unto eternal life. The Word IS Spiritual, after all. Jesus is in full accord with His Word in print, but not the print on paper is Jesus The Word. Jesus IS The Word, ALIVE HIMSELF, in believers. Heb. 4:12

 

[Douglas Summers]

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Yes, God DID in fact make/create Satan and made Satan as our adversary. God created "everything" and "all things." John 8:44 shows us how the devil was made from the beginning. Satan did not "make himself" or we're gonna have a poly deity issue.


You are only observing people in the above. Satan is a wicked evil lying deceiving destroying spirit and can be no other thing because that's the way Satan was made. When we read of wickedness in the scriptures we should never see "just and only people" as this isn't the case of scripture.



Again, seeing just and only people isn't an accurate sight. We might very well consider that the powers of evil and darkness are also in play in this present wicked age, and are being JUDGED.

And scriptures speak exactly to that matter in many places. This present world exercise is not 'only' about mankind, but also about the judgment, condemnation, wrath and eventual destruction of all wicked spirits. Eph. 3:10, Eph. 6:11-13 and several others too extensive to list.



IF God created Satan and Satan has been a liar from the beginning, then yes, God did create that liar as a lying spirit. And, by God's Sovereign Power, HE will show His Own Power over all evil in the process and evil itself will have served God's Own Purposes. Rev. 4:11



I dissected this matter intimately in the last post to you, showing that Esau is a picture of US, in our "first natural man" state. And because the flesh is contrary to the Spirit and vice versa, there is HATE between these parties and functions. Gal. 5:17

The "flesh" has issues. What I've observed with you is that it is pointless to see only people in the equations of this present world, as that is not the case. There are many adverse powers that God Himself has made exactly to JUDGE and DESTROY them all. God LOVES judgment and does NOT forsake His saints!
Scripture is not for private interpretation.

Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

In reading ANY scripture, we should be aware that there are other matters going on in this world other than just with MAN.

 

[smaller]

It would be great if you used the quote feature Douglas. Just sayin.' Nuthin personal.

 

[FreeGrace]

We've taken a couple of tries on the rather solid fact that sin is DEMONIC.

For example, in 1 John 3:8, John tells us that 'sin is of the devil.'

I believe we all understand that fact.

Your claim of that is that only Adam and Eve's sin was of the devil.

I've NEVER made such a statement. Either cite the post # where you've claimed that I have claimed such, or issue an apology for your very gross error.

And, obviously, I would disagree with that kind of limitation. Everyone sins and everyone's sins are of the devil.

Once again, please quote any Scripture that says that ALL sins are of the devil. I'll cite Scripture that says that sin comes from the heart of man as well. Not the devil.

Secondly, you reject Paul's statement that he had a messenger of Satan IN his flesh, which IS what Paul said, and instead say there is no messenger of Satan IN Paul's flesh, as Paul said in 2 Cor. 12:7.

It was "in" in flesh like a thorn in the flesh. Not all the way in, as you would try to have it. Go play with a rose bush for a while until you understand Paul's analogy.

 

[smaller]

smaller:
We've taken a couple of tries on the rather solid fact that sin is DEMONIC.

For example, in 1 John 3:8, John tells us that 'sin is of the devil.'

I believe we all understand that fact.

I'll cite Scripture that says that sin comes from the heart of man as well. Not the devil.

Yeah, well, I think that about sums it up doesn't it? There is a disconnect in the reasoning where on one hand it's conceded and the other hand, not. Won't compute.

 

[smaller]

It was "in" in flesh like a thorn in the flesh. Not all the way in, as you would try to have it. Go play with a rose bush for a while until you understand Paul's analogy.

On this one I go with Paul's statement, as made, that a messenger of Satan was in his flesh, and depicted allegorically, as "a thorn." 2 Cor. 12:7

The same allegorical connection of Satan/devils to thorns is made in other places as well. Satan is depicted several ways, allegorically, in the scriptures.

 

[LovethroughDove]

All the writings in the N.T. speak against our adversary, our adversaries ways, works, and directs us to FIGHT that adversary, NOT the flesh and NOT other people. Eph. 6:11-13

I want to address this. It seems as though you want to just pin everything on the devil, which is fine. BUT, we can't help anyone else in their non-belief if we don't take Jesus warning of people's spiritual standing serious. Jesus is helping us open our eyes to what happens to people.

There are people who hear the message of the gospel/ try to understand, but then the devil snatches all understanding from that person (Matt 13:19)
There are people who hear the gospel and it sounds cool, but it the coolness only lasts a short time. (Matt 13:20)

There are people who know of the gospel, but everyday life chokes out the importance of it. (Matt 13:22)

And the last person is the person totally and utterly ready for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth! It will never leave them no matter what.

If you want to help people, you have to have your Spiritual goggles on to what the devil does. You aren't judging people, you are discerning where they are. If you don't have a grasp on what happens.........then you are of no help.

 

[FreeGrace]

smaller:
We've taken a couple of tries on the rather solid fact that sin is DEMONIC.

For example, in 1 John 3:8, John tells us that 'sin is of the devil.'



Yeah, well, I think that about sums it up doesn't it? There is a disconnect in the reasoning where on one hand it's conceded and the other hand, not. Won't compute.

Correct. Your view does not compute.

 

[FreeGrace]

On this one I go with Paul's statement, as made, that a messenger of Satan was in his flesh, and depicted allegorically, as "a thorn." 2 Cor. 12:7

The same allegorical connection of Satan/devils to thorns is made in other places as well. Satan is depicted several ways, allegorically, in the scriptures.

Bottom line is that Paul used figurative speech: thorn in the flesh. Again, please go play with a rose bush until you understand what Paul meant about "in the flesh". As a thorn sticks in the flesh. Nothing more.

You're treating Paul's figurative speech literally when it wasn't meant literally.

 

[smaller]

I want to address this. It seems as though you want to just pin everything on the devil, which is fine.

The basis of our need of Christ our Savior is based on the existence of a "real" spiritual adversary who's intentions are and remain bondage of the flesh. So, yeah, somewhat critical to understand. For some. Most probably don't pay much attention to the matters.

BUT, we can't help anyone else in their non-belief if we don't take Jesus warning of people's spiritual standing serious. Jesus is helping us open our eyes to what happens to people.

That's why I pay attention to the ways the adversary works. It's not just people we witness to. All unbelievers are by no uncertain scriptural "real" fact "held" by Satan's grip and power. I am very cognizant of this in witnessing, understanding that it's not just the person. Anyone who has been involved with sucessful witnessing knows to warn people of the after effects that are sure to follow, by Satan.

There are people who hear the message of the gospel/ try to understand, but then the devil snatches all understanding from that person (Matt 13:19)

Of course that happens. Ultimately it's not our call on who is turned and who isn't. But I have examined this subject matter closely for many practical reasons.

There are people who hear the gospel and it sounds cool, but it the coolness only lasts a short time. (Matt 13:20)

How we might view these parable matters will differ. I think we've delineated sufficiently on that subject in this thread.

If you want to help people, you have to have your Spiritual goggles on to what the devil does. You aren't judging people, you are discerning where they are. If you don't have a grasp on what happens.........then you are of no help.

I reject the analysis that there is any different ground. The Gospel is for all ground, period and every spot of land I rove will hear of the Love of God expressed in Christ, come hell or high water. A fairly large problem with witnessing is the puke unbelievers think they have to buy into to be saved from watching all the nonsense on television or radio.

 

[smaller]

Correct. Your view does not compute.

I read what's there and have no "special view."

 

[smaller]

Bottom line is that Paul used figurative speech: thorn in the flesh. Again, please go play with a rose bush until you understand what Paul meant about "in the flesh". As a thorn sticks in the flesh. Nothing more.

You're treating Paul's figurative speech literally when it wasn't meant literally.

There was a "real" messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh and that's pretty much all there is to the matter. When Paul said "I believe" that extension was not to the adversary in his flesh and that also would not apply to that adversary.

There are many sound scriptural reasons to "see" this actual adversary in Paul's flesh OR we'll wind up with having to see Paul himself as "evil" per Romans 7:21 and that is NOT going to cut scriptural mustard.

 

[JLB]

Yes, we do have an adversary.

Yes agreed.

We do fight the devil, who is a wicked spirit.Eph. 2:2 and we fight ALL his ways and works and that fight transpires between the flesh and the Spirit, which are contrary to each others and against each others. Gal. 5:17, Eph. 6:11-13 for brief examples.

Please write out the scripture and make your points from what the actual scripture says.



JLB

 

[JLB]

1 John 3:
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,

that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Great scripture! I agree with what it says.

What's your point?

Because you made half of the scripture smaller, [pun intended] and the other half larger, it still means the same thing.

He who sins is of the devil.

Not - sin is of the devil.



JLB

 

[JLB]

God in Christ did NOT come to "possibly" burn believers in hell. That is NOT the Good News of the Gospel. He came to SAVE us and He will do exactly that by His Own Sole Power over all adversity that we are presently immersed into. Phil. 3:21 speaks to "how" this will transpire.

Please post a scripture and write it out so we can all benefit from what Point you are making.

This will help us learn what it is you believe, and the point you are making.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There was a "real" messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh and that's pretty much all there is to the matter.

No such scripture!


What was the message that this messenger brought that frustrated Paul?

The "thorn in his flesh" is an expression used to denote a source of irritation, or frustration.

Thorn in the flesh
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thorn in the flesh is a colloquialism used to describe a chronic infirmity, annoyance, or trouble in one's life. It is most commonly used by Christians. The source of this Bible expression is Paul the Apostle, in his Second Epistle to the Corinthians 12:7–9:[1]

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. (KJV)

Other passages where "thorn" is used as a metaphor:[2]

And there shall be no more a pricking briar unto the house of Israel, nor [any] grieving thorn of all [that are] round about them, that despised them; and they shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.

— Ezekiel 28:24
Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

— Joshua 23:13
Paul does not mention the nature of his thorn, and his other epistles do not address the topic directly. Through the centuries Christians have speculated about what Paul referred to:

1. One interpretation is that the thorn describes the persecutions and unfortunate accidents that characterized Paul's life after his conversion to Christianity; as laid out in the preceding chapter 11 of the Second Epistle to the Corinthians.[3]
2. Some Roman Catholic writers think that it denotes suggestions to impiety.[4]
3. Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other Reformers interpret the expression as denoting temptation to unbelief.[4]
4. Others suppose the expression refers to "a pain in the ear or head," epileptic fits, or, in general, to some severe physical infirmity, which was a hindrance to the apostle in his work (comp. 1 Cor. 2:3; 2 Cor. 10:10; 11:30; Gal. 4:13, 14; 6:17).[4]
5. It has been suggested that his malady was a defect of sight, acute ophthalmia, caused by the dazzling light that shone around him at his conversion. This would account for the statements in Gal. 4:14; 2 Cor. 10:10; also Acts 23:5, and for his generally making use of the help of an amanuensis (comp. Rom. 16:22, etc.).[4]
6. Another view which has been maintained is that this "thorn" consisted in an infirmity of temper, to which he occasionally gave way, and which interfered with his success (comp. Acts 15:39; 23:2-5). If we consider the fact, "which the experience of God's saints in all ages has conclusively established, of the difficulty of subduing an infirmity of temper, as well as the pain, remorse, and humiliation such an infirmity is wont to cause to those who groan under it, we may be inclined to believe that not the least probable hypothesis concerning the 'thorn' or 'stake' in the flesh is that the loving heart of the apostle bewailed as his sorest trial the misfortune that, by impatience in word, he had often wounded those for whom he would willingly have given his life"

JLB

 

[smaller]

No such scripture!

JLB

If it wasn't penned to read it you might have something.

"messenger of Satan" means "messenger of Satan." Don't know why it would be read any differently than "messenger of Satan."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If it was in the flesh the thorn of a rose, I'd imagine Paul would have described it that way.

This "real" messenger of Satan is critical to Paul's understanding of salvation by GOD'S GRACE ALONE being sufficient, which is also part of the conveyance in one of the few statements of Paul where he actually "quotes" God as speaking to him directly immediately following the statement above.

And, since this pretty much deals a "death blow" to any forms of works/obedience salvation, I'd expect it to be resisted.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

And what was that weakness? The messenger of Satan in his flesh. There was no way for Paul to "work" his own way into salvation by works because it was not a matter of "just Paul." There is no way to work "the messenger of Satan" into salvation. It can't happen and won't happen. Hence Paul's entire leaning on salvation by grace alone, through faith in Christ, as works for salvation are not even on the table, and never were on the table.

The messenger of Satan is also the "evil present" with Paul in Romans 7:21. The messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh is also the "indwelling sin" in the Paul that Paul termed "no longer I" twice in Romans 7:17-20. It's also the cause of Paul doing evil when he didn't want to in Romans 7:19 and the cause for Paul doing things he hated in Romans 7:15 AND further the "reason" that Paul was the chief of sinners after salvation in 1 Tim. 1:15, because none of these sights are just about PAUL, but about Paul and the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh.

This is also the cause of temptation, lusts, deceptions, destruction, killing, ALL SIN and every evil thing IN MAN, all directly linked to the works of Satan, the devil, IN man.

The entire Gospel, in effect, revolves around the principle of Jesus saving us from THE DEVIL.

Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Our battles are not with people. Our battles are not with God. Our battles are not with ourselves.

This is exactly what we 'wrestle' with:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

So, yeah, kind of an important topic in/with all matters of scripture. And, since Satan does RESIST these truths of God in Christ and His Apostles in their open revealing IT WILL BE OPENLY RESISTED, even by many many believers, because of that operator.

The principle of the Gospel is to be "released" from this wrestling match in the current life, after our deaths, that transpires in our VILE BODY (Phil. 3:21), our own contrary flesh (Gal. 5:17), and in our own mind (Romans 7:7-13, Mark 4:15), wherein we "engage" the above powers and works OF SATAN.

Jesus came to "destroy" Satan's kingdom at the end, in favor of His Own Kingdom, wherein there are no enemies.

Part of that is to SHED HIS LIGHT on the perps.

At the end of our respective wrestling matches in this wicked generation, we will receive a NEW BODY that is not subject to evil intrusions into the flesh.

 

[JLB]

If it wasn't penned to read it you might have something.

"messenger of Satan" means "messenger of Satan." Don't know why it would be read any differently than "messenger of Satan."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Thanks for writing out the scripture.

Where in this scripture does the phrase "messenger of Satan in my flesh" occur, because I don't see it here.

This verse says: "Thorn in the flesh", which is an idiom to denote a source of irritation of frustration.

Thorn in the flesh, not thorn in my flesh.

The messenger of Satan was given to Paul to buffet him.

You have combined an idiom, an expression meaning a source of irritation, with "messenger of Satan to buffet me", and are trying to make this verse say messenger of Satan in my flesh.

The scripture does not say messenger of Satan in my flesh.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If it wasn't penned to read it you might have something.

"messenger of Satan" means "messenger of Satan." Don't know why it would be read any differently than "messenger of Satan."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Thanks for writing out the scripture.

Where in this scripture does the phrase "messenger of Satan in my flesh" occur, because I don't see it here.

This verse says: "Thorn in the flesh", which is an idiom to denote a source of irritation of frustration.

Thorn in the flesh, not thorn in my flesh.

The messenger of Satan was given to Paul to buffet him.

You have combined an idiom, an expression meaning a source of irritation, with "messenger of Satan to buffet me", and are trying to make this verse say messenger of Satan in my flesh.

The scripture does not say messenger of Satan in my flesh.


JLB

The entire Gospel, in effect, revolves around the principle of Jesus saving us from THE DEVIL.

Ephesians 6:11
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Does the whole armor of God, enable a person to stand against the sin dwelling in their flesh, which is "inside" them?


The armor of God is for us to protect us against an "outside" force, the wiles of the devil.


Please make note of the difference:

Sin - inside the flesh of the person, which is inside the armor.
The devil - a force, the wiles, outside the believer and can be protected against by the armor of God.


Now here is your scripture for the Day.

Please meditate on it all day long and renew your mind with the truth of what it says:

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might.11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Ephesians 6:10-12

Where does this scripture say the spirits are located? HEAVENLY PLACES!
Not in our flesh.


The way we do battle with these spiritual host's is the word spoken in prayer.

The angels that respond to our prayers do the actual battle in heavenly places.


Example:

12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”... 18 Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19 And he said, “O man greatly beloved, fear not! Peace be to you; be strong, yes, be strong!”
So when he spoke to me I was strengthened, and said, “Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.”
20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince. Daniel 10:12-14,18-21


We are to cast out devil's, here on earth where we have been given authority.

The spiritual host of wickedness does not dwell in our flesh, but in heavenly places.



JLB