"I Believe" Does That Mean I'm Saved?

[smaller]

Choppers original observation was that he sees people who "supposedly" believe, but apparently he sees that they may not be according to his spiritual radar.

What chopper doesn't see is this:

Romans 9:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The above is what Paul bases ALL of his teachings on.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this of JBL:
"Have you been born of God?
Have you ceased from sinning?"

I as a child of God do not have "sin" counted against me. 2 Cor. 5:19.

Actually, that verse refers to everyone in the human race, not just children of God.

I may even regard this as being sinless in and of myself "in Christ." But that does not address the contrary flesh or sin that indwells "MY" flesh just as it indwelt Paul's flesh.

Your confusion is in thinking that there is "contrary flesh" indwelling your flesh. It is your own flesh that is contrary. Until that becomes clear, you'll never understand what Paul wrote.

Every action of sin is directly demonic and this extends from evil/sin thoughts to evil/sin words to evil/sin deeds. No one is exempt from this adverse action.

As yet, you've given NO evidence of this from Scripture.

Jer 17:9 - “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Luke 6:45 - “The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Matt 15:18,19 - 18 “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

Can I say I have no sin and be "IN TRUTH?"

No, but irrelevant to the discussion of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Choppers original observation was that he sees people who "supposedly" believe, but apparently he sees that they may not be according to his spiritual radar.

What chopper doesn't see is this:

Romans 9:
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The above is what Paul bases ALL of his teachings on.

On what basis is this claim made?? Prove it with Scripture. Which will fail. Because Paul based all of his teachings on direct revelation from Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:11,12 - 11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[smaller]

There are no 2 parties to any equation.

Yes there are and it is proven throughout the scriptures.

Paul is not an equation. And there are not 2 parties going on in him. Even if he were a party animal.

I take Paul's statements of there being a messenger of Satan in his flesh as being a fact. 2 Cor. 12:7. This sight lines up in EXACT accord with Paul's teachings in Romans 9:20-21 as well, showing the EXACT same principle of scriptural reality.

I can't understand your "2 party system".

The second party to the equations never will see it. Believers are proven blind to this fact continually by the fact of it.

If your view is that the devil is present IN believers, then your view is contrary to Scripture.

I do not consider it some fantastic leap to understand that we have internal adverse thoughts courtesy of our mutual adversary. If this is some startling new disclosure to any believe I'd be very surprised. This is "how" this matter can be proven to any believer, by simple internal examination.

I never suggested any re-write of any Scripture. Maybe in your fantasy. 1 Jn 3:8 does NOT say that all sin comes from the devil.

It doesn't have to. It says "sin" is of the devil, not "some sin." That means "all."

A balanced view of Scripture is needed to understand Scripture. You've taken 1 verse and built a false idea from it.

I've taken Paul's sight of himself in 2 Cor. 12:7 and linked this directly to his very basic teaching in Romans 9:20-21. This is the basis of ALL his teaching.

Please clarify exactly what that means. Demon possessed, or what?

See above. If any believer acknowledges (as they should be able to see for themselves) ANY internal wicked thought and understands this is from our ADVERSARY, they'll see the reality of Paul's teachings, that there are 2 parties present.

When a person believes, it is THAT PERSON who believes and is saved. Period.

No believer can be lost, period, for any reason. It's not possible.

But only ONE party in their "lump" of "me" will be moving on.

 

[Obadiah]

The subject of this thread is whether or not "belief in Jesus" saves us. Let's now return to that subject. The concept that Paul was internally possessed by some kind of "messenger of Satan" I think has been discussed quite enough here and is taking this thread way to far away from it's topic. Any further discussion of this concept will be deleted and official action will be taken for disregarding staff's instructions. If folks want to discuss this subject of Paul's "messenger of Satan" it can be done in another thread as long as that thread follows the ToS and guidelines of whatever forum it's created in.

 

[smaller]

(Post removed, off topic and in opposition to staff's requests. Obadiah)

 

[smaller]

(Post removed, off topic and in opposition to staff's requests. Obadiah)

 

[Douglas Summers]

Have you been born of God?
Have you ceased from sinning?

The answer from the born again believer is yes to both questions. I was born of God. That is what rebirth is. The Spirit of Christ in me. And I ceased from practicing sin, for the Lord has and is saving me from the dominion of sin by the Spirit of Christ in me, that is conforming me to the image of His son and my Brother, even as God is my Father.
There is Scripture for what i have witnessed to you, but I'am witnessing to you of what happened to me and all other born again believer. This is foreign to the natural man, but the power of God to the born again believer.

 

[WIP]

The A&T forum guidelines require that we support our views/opinions with Scripture. Please remember to follow the guidelines.

 

[Douglas Summers]

I asked this of JBL:
"Have you been born of God?
Have you ceased from sinning?"

Actually, that verse refers to everyone in the human race, not just children of God.


Your confusion is in thinking that there is "contrary flesh" indwelling your flesh. It is your own flesh that is contrary. Until that becomes clear, you'll never understand what Paul wrote.


As yet, you've given NO evidence of this from Scripture.

Jer 17:9 - “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it?

Luke 6:45 - “The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart.

Matt 15:18,19 - 18 “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19 “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.


No, but irrelevant to the discussion of salvation.

Hi Grace, I'm trying to understand you smaller's and JBL's discussion that I'am following. What is the object of the discussion. Some of these discussions are good for they cause people to search the Scriptures and jump start the mind to seek out doctrine.

 

[FreeGrace]

(Post removed, ToS 2.4 taking a thread off topic, and opposition to staff's request to return to the topic of this thread. Obadiah)

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi Grace, I'm trying to understand you smaller's and JBL's discussion that I'am following. What is the object of the discussion. Some of these discussions are good for they cause people to search the Scriptures and jump start the mind to seek out doctrine.

Smaller's discussion is completely divorced from the OP, and we are to return to the OP. My discussions about his views are over.

You can PM any one of us for further discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

From Obadiah:
"The subject of this thread is whether or not "belief in Jesus" saves us. Let's now return to that subject."

My view is that our action of belief in Jesus does not save us. Scripture is clear who does the saving: God, and God alone.

For example, 1 Cor 1:21 says: For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

There are many verses that tell us that Christ is our Savior and He is God. So all saving is done by God. Our action of believing is not salvific. When Jesus said "your faith has saved you" a number of times, it should be obvious that He meant that one is saved because they have believed, just as 1 Cor 1:21 says that God saves those who believe.

iow, God saves only those who have believed. No one else. If one has not believed in Christ, they are not saved. Those who have believed, God saves.

So, to answer the OP, one is saved if one believes in Jesus, but the action of believing isn't what saves. God is who saves. Always.

 

[smaller]

(Post removed.
Response to a deleted post.
ToS 2.8: The contents of private conversations with members or staff are to be kept strictly confidential. Obadiah)

 

[Obadiah]

Closed for review.

 

[Obadiah]

Thread is re-opened now. Sorry to take so long, every time I tried the web site wasn't working.

 

[ezrider]

I'll try, if it's ok with you, to answer question 64 as well as this one. As far as Micah 4:3-5 which you quoted, I honestly had to try and figure out why you would quote such an obscure portion of Scripture, IMO, as an answer to my question to you. I'm assuming that by the use of V.3 you are saying that my questioning if a person who professes Salvation in Jesus, but shows little evidence of Salvation, I might start a conflict with that person, and God would not want that.

The scripture form Micah 4:3-5 was not a test question or anything. And although I wouldn't just pass it off as an obscure portion of scripture, I was only interested in what it meant to you. I find it quite profound in many ways when I consider what it means in that day that everyone shall walk in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God.

Micah 4:1-5
But in the last days it shall come to pass,
that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains,
and it shall be exalted above the hills;
and people shall flow unto it.
And many nations shall come, and say,
Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
and to the house of the God of Jacob;
and he will teach us of his ways,
and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion,
and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge among many people,
and rebuke strong nations afar off;
and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
and their spears into pruninghooks:
nation shall not lift up a sword against nation,
neither shall they learn war any more.
But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree;
and none shall make them afraid:
for the mouth of the Lord of hosts hath spoken it.
For all people will walk every one in the name of his god,
and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

 

[ezrider]

Now, this leads us to your second question which is not really a "silly question." You ask, "what does it mean to be saved?", and "what is it that we are saved from?" I feel that you'd like to know just what I'm looking for in a person who claims to be "saved".

What was he saved from you ask? James can answer that. " will save his soul from death (probably the sin unto death) and will cover a multitude of sins."

When I asked the question what does it mean to be saved? What are we saved from? There was a particular scripture that was in my mind.

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


We are saved from the curse of the law.

So when you quote James 5:19-20 and saving someone from the error of their way, what is the error of their way? Is it because they have fallen into sin? Or is it because they have tried to justify themselves before the law and have placed themselves back under the curse?

Galatians 3:10-12
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident:for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Douglas Summers]

From Obadiah:
"The subject of this thread is whether or not "belief in Jesus" saves us. Let's now return to that subject."

My view is that our action of belief in Jesus does not save us. Scripture is clear who does the saving: God, and God alone.

For example, 1 Cor 1:21 says: For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

There are many verses that tell us that Christ is our Savior and He is God. So all saving is done by God. Our action of believing is not salvific. When Jesus said "your faith has saved you" a number of times, it should be obvious that He meant that one is saved because they have believed, just as 1 Cor 1:21 says that God saves those who believe.

iow, God saves only those who have believed. No one else. If one has not believed in Christ, they are not saved. Those who have believed, God saves.

So, to answer the OP, one is saved if one believes in Jesus, but the action of believing isn't what saves. God is who saves. Always.

Here is what I do know and stand on. "for there is no other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved.(Acts 4:12). Jesus, before His incarnation was the God of the OT. (John 1: 1-5). Jesus was a love gift from the Father to the righteous man. Righteous does not mean Holy or perfect, but a man who looked to the promises of God, believing God, looking for His mercy from above.(Gen. 6: 5-8) (Matt. 13: 17). So when a man is saved, he is saved by God The Father through God the Son incarnate. It had to be that way. For as by one man came death unto all men, so by one man came life everlasting. For it behooved Him to become like His brethren (Heb. 2: 9-18) (Rom. 5: 12-21) There are two types of believing, one with faith and the other without faith.

 

[Chopper]

When I asked the question what does it mean to be saved? What are we saved from? There was a particular scripture that was in my mind.

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us:for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


We are saved from the curse of the law.

So when you quote James 5:19-20 and saving someone from the error of their way, what is the error of their way? Is it because they have fallen into sin? Or is it because they have tried to justify themselves before the law and have placed themselves back under the curse?

Galatians 3:10-12
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident:for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Thanks EZ. I agree, Praise the Lord.